I remember when Glock first hit the US market. I was working as a rotation manager between a couple of stores (same company). The Glock rep used to come in towing the pistol behind his car on a rope. Then, we would gather behind the store and he would bury the gun in a bucket of mud and later a bucket of sand. He would then fire the pistol. It worked flawlessly. My 1911 would never do that. I traded in my 45ACP (I was paying attention to science and actual shooting results, not hyperbally and myth) for a 9mm Glock. My father, a space engineer, made fun of my plastic gun (We both carried 1911's in the service) and its puny caliber. One day, out on the little ranch we had, we were behind the dam shooting at some clay targets on the dirt dam. He was doing okay, but shooting all around. The .45acp would hit the mud and dirt and never disturb anything. He noticed when I shot my 9mm dirt and mud flew up in the air. The energy and velocity (people say that doesn't matter, but they are wrong. Ask Weatherby) tore up the ground. He shot my Glock and hit every target dead center. He went down that afternoon and bought a 9mm Glock and carried it everyday until he died decades later, even when working on the ranch. That 9mm never let him down. Feral dogs, coyotes, etc. all showed how effective proper 9mm Parabellum ammunition can be.
Same old debate. 1911 in 9mm or 45
- Thread starter SlimChicken
- Start date
This is taking longer than I had hoped. I apologize for the delay. I'll give an overview of my "hypothesis" and then try to come up with pix. I cannot easily get down into the basement, where my few guns are, to take pix, so I've got to find them online.
WRT 45 Super, much has been made of the lack of chamber support in the area of the feed ramp on standard 1911A1 type barrels. This was based on destructive examples of overloaded 45 ACP, where the case blows out in the unsupported area, blowing straight down the magazine well. This is rightly considered a disaster.
But with the advent of 45 Super in the 80s, the case construction (by Starline) was beefed up in recognition of this potential problem. These cases are market "45 Super".
Separately, Colt offered a 1911-type in 10mm (Delta Elite), and from all I can tell, the feed ramp is just like it is for a standard 45 ACP; minimally supported on the underside.
This then implied to me that the problem with blown out cases in overloaded 45 ACP was not primarily lack of support, but was instead caused primarily by cases that were never designed to survive 25+K psi (SAAMI for 45 ACP being 21K psi). Therefore, with a properly designed case, it would be just fine to fire a souped up 45 ACP (which is essentially what a 45 Super is) from a Colt with adequate springs but unmodified barrel/feedramp.
Does this look to you like what's going on? That if Colt released their Delta Elite, which fires a 10mm round (37.5K psi) from a normally configured barrel/ramp, the real constraint is the case design and not the unsupported chamber?
10mm Auto - Wikipedia
.45 Super - Wikipedia
This is taking longer than I had hoped. I apologize for the delay. I'll give an overview of my "hypothesis" and then try to come up with pix. I cannot easily get down into the basement, where my few guns are, to take pix, so I've got to find them online.
WRT 45 Super, much has been made of the lack of chamber support in the area of the feed ramp on standard 1911A1 type barrels. This was based on destructive examples of overloaded 45 ACP, where the case blows out in the unsupported area, blowing straight down the magazine well. This is rightly considered a disaster.
But with the advent of 45 Super in the 80s, the case construction (by Starline) was beefed up in recognition of this potential problem. These cases are market "45 Super".
Separately, Colt offered a 1911-type in 10mm (Delta Elite), and from all I can tell, the feed ramp is just like it is for a standard 45 ACP; minimally supported on the underside.
This then implied to me that the problem with blown out cases in overloaded 45 ACP was not primarily lack of support, but was instead caused primarily by cases that were never designed to survive 25+K psi (SAAMI for 45 ACP being 21K psi). Therefore, with a properly designed case, it would be just fine to fire a souped up 45 ACP (which is essentially what a 45 Super is) from a Colt with adequate springs but unmodified barrel/feedramp.
Does this look to you like what's going on? That if Colt released their Delta Elite, which fires a 10mm round (37.5K psi) from a normally configured barrel/ramp, the real constraint is the case design and not the unsupported chamber?
10mm Auto - Wikipedia
.45 Super - Wikipedia
Time for me to fess up on my ignorance.This is taking longer than I had hoped. I apologize for the delay. I'll give an overview of my "hypothesis" and then try to come up with pix. I cannot easily get down into the basement, where my few guns are, to take pix, so I've got to find them online.
WRT 45 Super, much has been made of the lack of chamber support in the area of the feed ramp on standard 1911A1 type barrels. This was based on destructive examples of overloaded 45 ACP, where the case blows out in the unsupported area, blowing straight down the magazine well. This is rightly considered a disaster.
But with the advent of 45 Super in the 80s, the case construction (by Starline) was beefed up in recognition of this potential problem. These cases are market "45 Super".
Separately, Colt offered a 1911-type in 10mm (Delta Elite), and from all I can tell, the feed ramp is just like it is for a standard 45 ACP; minimally supported on the underside.
This then implied to me that the problem with blown out cases in overloaded 45 ACP was not primarily lack of support, but was instead caused primarily by cases that were never designed to survive 25+K psi (SAAMI for 45 ACP being 21K psi). Therefore, with a properly designed case, it would be just fine to fire a souped up 45 ACP (which is essentially what a 45 Super is) from a Colt with adequate springs but unmodified barrel/feedramp.
Does this look to you like what's going on? That if Colt released their Delta Elite, which fires a 10mm round (37.5K psi) from a normally configured barrel/ramp, the real constraint is the case design and not the unsupported chamber?
10mm Auto - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
.45 Super - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
While I have heard of the 45 Super, I have never seen one and (to my shame) know absolutely nothing of them.
I know that the cases of the 9X23 and the 10mm were beefed up because of pressure, but my specimens both have ramped barrels and fully supported chambers.
If I recall correctly, the 10mm was the brainchild of Jeff Cooper and a company called something like Dornhouse and Dixon. Mr. Cooper worked with them to design 'the perfect sidearm and cartridge'. The company really struggled to get in to production and the market didn't show much enthusiasm for the new pistol/cartridge. The early lots of 10mm were alleged to be loaded pretty hot, right on the heels of the 41 magnum and as a result, D&D's pistols started showing cracking and distortion.
Again, I am working from memory here and it was so long ago that I read this, I don't trust any of it very far.
You need a heavy case for extreme pressures. There is no way around it. On the other hand, I have come to understand that with my own guns, a fully supported chamber will let me get by with a lot of 'experimenting'. I'm not saying that its smart, only that you might get by with it.
I don't 'whip' my 1911 pistols. There is no reason to do so. It's an excellent design and has proven effective against goblins (Jeff Cooper's word) for over 100 years. If one desires a substantial increase in power on target, there are heavy revolvers and single shot pistols that will deliver the goods without foreshortening their lifespans.
In my opinion, there really is no reason to over stress and abuse a 1911 in an effort to make it in to something it was never designed to be. I like the guns too much to tear them up without good reason.
Ok, off my high horse. I will take some time and do some research on the 45 Super in an effort to assuage my embarrassment and to avoid proving myself an incompetent.
Bill.
The .45 Super looks good on paper, but falls flat with penetration. The 10mm is a better cartridge, in my opinion. I had a wonderful 1st run Colt Delta Elite that was fantastic. Alas, it went away like the rest of my guns when we moved here. Having a gun is a life in prison sentence.
WRT the Delta Elite, all photos and info I've seen indicate that the barrel design is just like a standard 1911:
Is this correct?
Thanks!
A 1911, is a 1911, caliber and frame / slide size differ, based on the model. The $350 import 1911 45 caliber is nearly the same spec as a $2,500+ Les Baer, just more expensive components/fit and finish.
Points to consider in selecting
Use cases to consider
Points to consider in selecting
- Carry a lot and shoot a little
- Shoot a lot and carry a little
Use cases to consider
- Weight and size, comfort shooting a lot (target shooting), recoil (weight and size)
- Carry a lot, weight and size
- Shoot a lot, weight and size
- Caliber options that work for your requirement (use case, target or personal protection, or both, users experience level)
As far as I remember, yes. I'd put in a barrel with a fully supported chamber and recoil buffers.
Two camps .45, v/s 9mm debate continues forever. No right reply, no wrong reply.
Pick one you like, tell those who don’t like, tough tacos.
Your money your choice.
Pick one you like, tell those who don’t like, tough tacos.
Your money your choice.
Seems like there was a similar thread a while back.
I got a Springfield EMP 13 years ago because it supposedly was made especially for the 9mm round.
Looks nice, accurate when something comes out of the barrel.
Been back to Springfield twice.
”Drilled and pinned ejector.”
”Polished feed ramp”, adjusted something.
I kept it on my permit because it’s too much of a hassle to change, but I would never carry it. Don’t trust it, basically gave up on it.
Last time I qualified with it, one of the magazines would not seat when it had a full nine rounds.
What an embarrassment. Guys with guns a third the price, no problems,
I’ve also got a Sig P938 SAS that malfunctions and stays in the safe.
I got a Springfield EMP 13 years ago because it supposedly was made especially for the 9mm round.
Looks nice, accurate when something comes out of the barrel.
Been back to Springfield twice.
”Drilled and pinned ejector.”
”Polished feed ramp”, adjusted something.
I kept it on my permit because it’s too much of a hassle to change, but I would never carry it. Don’t trust it, basically gave up on it.
Last time I qualified with it, one of the magazines would not seat when it had a full nine rounds.
What an embarrassment. Guys with guns a third the price, no problems,
I’ve also got a Sig P938 SAS that malfunctions and stays in the safe.
I like pistols. I like the 1911 and it isn't because of its legacy nor its appearance. It's the trigger. I am a poor enough shot as it is. A long, heavy trigger pull only exacerbates my shortcomings with accuracy.
My guns are reliable. It is very rare that I see an issue with one of them and that is nearly always traceable to lightly loaded ammo. I used to see the occasional ftf, fte, or stovepipe, but I isolated those magazines and rebuilt them with Wilson Combat springs and followers. Problem solved.
I have had to re profile and/or tune the rare extractor, deburr a breech face or two, re-radius a chamber mouth a couple of times, etc. But in the end, they all run as intended.
This is an OLD design and was largely dependent on hand fitting and big clearances. It was built to function in just about any conceivable environment and do so with life and death reliability. Over the decades, we shooters began to demand much better accuracy, better triggers, different ejection patterns, line on line fitting (no more gaps), etc. taking the pistol quite a distance from its origins. I knew old timers who judged the condition of a 1911 on how badly it rattled when they shook it. Usually, it wasn't a question of whether it would run or not, but how badly worn it was. They all rattled.
We have MUCH better guns than were made in years gone by. Better steel, smaller clearances, better fitting, accuracy the old guys wouldn't have dreamed of, and accessories out the wazoo. Most of my guns sport a trigger of 2.75-3 lbs. The old guys wouldn't have believed it possible without the gun being clapped out. Unfortunately, all those "benefits" have come at a price, as they always do and that price is that the new guns can be finicky upon occasion. If I couldn't work on my own guns, I probably couldn't afford them.
We can deal with 'finicky', and when we do and the gun becomes absolutely reliable, the old 1911 becomes near magical and the "breaking glass rod" trigger is the pixie dust on top.
Yes, I'm waxing but I love these guns. I hit the range 4-6 times a month and go through two or three boxes of ammo every trip. I have discovered this to be a most pleasurable and harmless past time for an old retired guy.
For me, it's not about the cartridge. It's about the challenge of hitting what I'm shooting at and that is what keeps me going back. Same with shotguns and I have been told that this is a major element in the addiction to golf that so many suffer from.
Enjoy yourself. Shoot what you brung and cartridge be damned.
Bill.
My guns are reliable. It is very rare that I see an issue with one of them and that is nearly always traceable to lightly loaded ammo. I used to see the occasional ftf, fte, or stovepipe, but I isolated those magazines and rebuilt them with Wilson Combat springs and followers. Problem solved.
I have had to re profile and/or tune the rare extractor, deburr a breech face or two, re-radius a chamber mouth a couple of times, etc. But in the end, they all run as intended.
This is an OLD design and was largely dependent on hand fitting and big clearances. It was built to function in just about any conceivable environment and do so with life and death reliability. Over the decades, we shooters began to demand much better accuracy, better triggers, different ejection patterns, line on line fitting (no more gaps), etc. taking the pistol quite a distance from its origins. I knew old timers who judged the condition of a 1911 on how badly it rattled when they shook it. Usually, it wasn't a question of whether it would run or not, but how badly worn it was. They all rattled.
We have MUCH better guns than were made in years gone by. Better steel, smaller clearances, better fitting, accuracy the old guys wouldn't have dreamed of, and accessories out the wazoo. Most of my guns sport a trigger of 2.75-3 lbs. The old guys wouldn't have believed it possible without the gun being clapped out. Unfortunately, all those "benefits" have come at a price, as they always do and that price is that the new guns can be finicky upon occasion. If I couldn't work on my own guns, I probably couldn't afford them.
We can deal with 'finicky', and when we do and the gun becomes absolutely reliable, the old 1911 becomes near magical and the "breaking glass rod" trigger is the pixie dust on top.
Yes, I'm waxing but I love these guns. I hit the range 4-6 times a month and go through two or three boxes of ammo every trip. I have discovered this to be a most pleasurable and harmless past time for an old retired guy.
For me, it's not about the cartridge. It's about the challenge of hitting what I'm shooting at and that is what keeps me going back. Same with shotguns and I have been told that this is a major element in the addiction to golf that so many suffer from.
Enjoy yourself. Shoot what you brung and cartridge be damned.
Bill.
The thing that really sets my Sistema Colt apart from any other handgun that I've shot that wasn't a 1911-type is, as you say, the trigger.
It is like a loaded mouse trap. You apply pressure to the trigger face and there's no movement. Apply just a bit more pressure, and WHAMMO!
I think many revolvers fired from single action are close, but none are equal, in my opinion.
