Good Steel 🤷‍♂️

[Eben Stone]

I want a razor that can hold a good shaving edge. I keep hearing the phrase "good steel" and soft German steel, hard French steel, soft steel retains an edge better than hard steel, etc.

My current progression is Shapton HR 1k, 3k, film 4.5k 14k, 60k, balsa 50k, 100k, 200k.

I just use the 60k film mostly for testing, to see how much the blade sticks to the film, before going to balsa, because it never sticks to the 14k film.

So what do I look for, what to avoid, when buying a straight razor to get one with good steel?

 

[Steve56]

I’d look for vintage French from the 50s when they were more hollow and better finished. Thiers-Issard and Le Grelot Sheffield Steel (and regular Le Grelot) would be good. Most Swedish razors have excellent steel in them, in fact all that I’ve had. Most Japanese razors have excellent steel and they used a variety of steels. Tanifuji branded or Tanifuji made razors, razors from Nichiri barber supply like the Cape brand, and any JRazor made from Yasuski steel. Yasuki steel razors are usually branded ‘YSSH2’ or ‘tamahagane’. Yasuki steel razors have seen a steep increase in price in the past couple of years, so bargains may be difficult to come by. American razors from the Finger Lakes area are also quite good, though finding one larger than 5/8 in good condition is not always easy. Finally, the current TI razors made of C135 steel take very good edges and shave very well, but the grinding is not what it was on the vintage TI razors.

Hope this helps.

 

[silverlifter]

In my, albeit limited, experience yasuki steel holds a phenomenal edge. I also find stainless (specifically Heljestrand, but also Friodurs) holds an edge longer, but not in the yasuki league.

 

[JPO]

I have tried allot of different steel types at different hardness levels. No steel i have tried have come close to RWL-34 made by Damasteel. High carbon stainless modern powder steel.
I have also used this steel at different hardness levels, from 57, 62 to 65 hrc.
For me the 62 hrc felt like the best compromise.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Yup, a good list to start from Steve.

I like the Vintage TI, Japanese and vintage New York. Plenty of deals to be had in vintage New York razors from the usual suspects, Genco, Case and others.

If you are having edge retention issues, it could be you are over doing the paste. Diamond paste is very abrasive, on balsa, more so. You could be thinning the edge with too many laps on paste and or going to high on grit. Past .50 um there is not a lot of edge benefit. Get the edge too thin and it fails quickly.

A 1um film with paper is a nice shaving edge. Paper makes a big difference, if you need more keenness just a few laps of .50um on a cotton or paper hanging strop.

I like CBN over Diamonds at .50um.

 

[Legion]

It ain't (just) about the steel, it's about the heat treatment!

Hard Vs soft steel, I guess it's like knives. Hard steel will hold an edge longer, soft will be easier to hone. The hones you use will play a factor in how important that might be, and how often you like to hone. Personally I like honing, so like with knives, I prefer to have an easy to hone blade, and am prepared to do it more often.

 

[5whiskey]

There's a lot to this. First off, there are a lot of qualifiers to soft steel retaining an edge better than hard steel. Hard steel is more brittle, and more prone to developing micro chips in the edge. Soft steel is more malleable and less brittle, so the micro chips that leave edges feeling rough occur less often, but it does deform easier. Its easier to roll the edge on a softer steel. And softness/hardness has at least as much to do with heat treatment and tempering as it does the alloy type.

For sure, some regions are known for their superior steel. No one will argue that the Japs have world class steel, and have had it for many years. The Swedish steels are also some of the best. American razors such as Case, Genco, Geneva, etc. can not be discounted... I consider those razors in the upper tier of steel quality.

German steel and Sheffield steel is nothing to sneeze at either. They do all seem to have their quirks. If edge retention is something you value, I would consider grind as much as I did the steel. I have a Wostenholm that's somewhere between 1/4 and 1/2 hollow, and that thing just goes on and on. Gives great shaves top, one of my best razors. It's also 7/8, which I also think plays a small part in edge retention.

I know little about the French razors. I have one French razor. It is a good razor, but it's middle of the pack between the German, English, and American razors I have.

Edit: lastly, there are tradeoffs that come with edge retention. Razors known to keep an edge slightly better are also often more finicky to hone.

 

[DrStrange]

It ain't (just) about the steel, it's about the heat treatment!

Hard Vs soft steel, I guess it's like knives. Hard steel will hold an edge longer, soft will be easier to hone. The hones you use will play a factor in how important that might be, and how often you like to hone. Personally I like honing, so like with knives, I prefer to have an easy to hone blade, and am prepared to do it more often.

Myself, when I think of the quality of the steel,
I am thinking of the steel I am honing and shaving with,
which includes the chemistry, the forging, and the heat treatment.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

I wish I could find it, there was a video with Tim Zowada where he was making his "timahagane" steel and he was talking about wear resistance versus hardness. As I recall he said, for razors, he likes to keep the wear resistance a little lower because it allows the edge to be brought back easily on a strop for longer, whereas the a more wear resistant steel would end up needing to be honed sooner because the strop was less effective. He didn't go into a lot of detail as he was rather occupied with the bloom at the time, but I found it interesting. (As I recall the video was posted by someone else who was hanging with him at the time).

 

[DesertIguana]

Steel is interesting subject, ever Steel make is trying to make the PERFECT STEEL. I know Spyderco the Knife make does about 12 or more Steels in their knives, each one is slightly different.

I have no preference in Knife Steel, except staying Sharp all the time, after hard use. Sadly have not found a STEEL that Never Dulls with Hard use, and new Need Sharpening.

Sure most Straqing use would like a Steel that never Dulls, never need to be stoned, or stroped.

 

[JPO]

Steel and different processes for creating cutting tools for different purposes is a deep rabbit hole.

I would never attempt shaving with my Spyderco Serrata, but for allot of other tasks it is outstanding.
The steel grain structure and carbides can make a big difference.

Spyderco Serrata – Cast Steel Bush Knife

A beautiful knife with dangerous curves ! The Serrata is a beautiful massive short fixed blade designed by Stuart Ackerman and released by Spyderco and manufactured in Taichung Taiwan. Holding that…

nemoknivesreview.com

 

[JPO]

Rwl-34 steel with a proper heat threat has some of the same properties as the dendritic 440 C steel without being harsh.
The carbides and the grain structure combined with high wear resistance results in a fantastic razor steel.
The carbides in the steel looks like small balls. These gets exposed because in this case the jnat is not able to cut the carbides.
This results in a really effective cutting edge that feels dull on the face. Every time you shave the edge feels like it was just honed.
the edge retention is also incredible.

The downside is that it can be a challenge to hone partly because of the high wear resistance.

 

[DrStrange]

My own feeling,
originally based on my experience with kitchen knives,
is that the same amount of cutting
requires about the same amount of sharpening
regardless of the hardness of the steel.

It follows from there that a very hard steel edge
should be sharpened before it gets dull.
Compared to a softer steel blade,
a hard steel edge
will take the same amount of sharpening over its life
but it will be sharper in between honings.

 

[Eben Stone]

A 1um film with paper is a nice shaving edge.

Thanks for the suggestion. Next time I'll try skipping the balsa and just shave after the 1u film with paper. I don't remember if I've ever tried that.

 

[Eben Stone]

If you are having edge retention issues...

Something I read in another thread makes me wonder if my razors with quickly degrading edges happen to be the ebay/etsy beaters that have lots of spine wear, with narrow bevel angle. I'm surprised I haven't been more attentive to which razors are more problematic than the others.

 

[Gamma]

Really doesn't pay to sweat this sort of thing.
Remember, a lotta people repeat stuff they read on the internet, without vetting it themselves or doing any actual testing.
Whatever sounds good will get repeated.
There are a couple of websites built on that premise actually; copy/paste and not a clue about accuracy.

The term 'Soft German steel', for example. It's been around a long while. I think it was Jeness who did destructive testing for the purpose of evaluating steel hardness of vintage razors from UK, Germany, etc. Solingen steel tested did not prove to be 'softer', it was right there in the midst of all the othr blades. Not surprising, I've had Bokers that were a bear to hone and kept edges for what seemed like forever. Same of Dovos, Bisarks, etc.
HRC isn't the only factor involved in quality. There are many many factors that add up to 'steel quality' and there's way way too much broscience touted as fact to get a clear view of the landscape.

While it's possible to find a vintage razor that seems harder or softer, I've come across a few Sheffields like that, but in general most vintage razors with good geometry hone well and shave well. Harder steel isn't necessarily better. Iwasaki experiemented heavily with this for good reason.

I have Wade & Butchers that keep as sharp an edge as long as Swedes and Japanese blades. The latter do seem a bit harder to hone. Given equal geometry, which is difficult to pair up, there may be subtle nuances in the shaving experience, but overall they are all delivering good shaves. Most steels will take a very smooth edge but it might require different honing techniques to get there.

Once in a while I run into one razor or another that stands out, edge retention wise.
F. Reynolds razors were called out as being 'too soft' and maybe some were or maybe Lummus had a bug in his shorts.
Anything is possible but I have had many and none were 'too soft' and all shaved well. I really have not come across any vintage brand that didn't have 'good steel' as a regular rule of thumb.

In a blind test I doubt there is one person on the planet that can ID steel type in a shave test.
Many steels do feel different on the stones, depending on the stones and the users.
I've had several dozen Japanese razors ranging from the most well known to absolutely 'never heard of' - all good.
Same for Swedes, Sheffields, Solingens, and so on.

Barring steel rot and bad geometry, the incidence of 'bad steel' is so microscopically small that it almost doesn't make sense to discuss it. There are probably way more instances of razors with trashed HT&T from fleabay buffers, and annihilated geometry from new honers using Superman force levels to set bevels.

I literally laugh when someone posts a pic of a vintage razor and someone else makes a point of writing "they make great shavers".
Yeah, they do, just about all of them do. If someone wants to think they shave better because their razor is made of C135, Sheffield steel, is Japanese or whatever, that's fine... I will go out on a limb and say that they didn't shave better than I did, regardless of which weapon of whisker destruction I used that day.

RSOs are another thing entirely. Different topic.

My personal preference is for wider vintage blades with heavier grinds so I wind up looking at Sheffields and I search for condition and geometry. I find them to hone easily but not everyone does. I find edge retention to, generally, be on par with everything else so I am good there too.
At the same time I just bought a new 8/8 Hollow Solingen from Revisior and it shaves and hones verrrry well.

 

[5whiskey]

The term 'Soft German steel', for example. It's been around a long while. I think it was Jeness who did destructive testing for the purpose of evaluating steel hardness of vintage razors from UK, Germany, etc. Solingen steel tested did not prove to be 'softer', it was right there in the midst of all the othr blades. Not surprising, I've had Bokers that were a bear to hone and kept edges for what seemed like forever. Same of Dovos, Bisarks, etc.
HRC isn't the only factor involved in quality. There are many many factors that add up to 'steel quality' and there's way way too much broscience touted as fact to get a clear view of the landscape.

See I haven't heard of this "soft German steel." From honing and using German razors, I didn't think of them as a whole to be inferior in most any way compared to Sheffield or American razors. In fact I have an ERN that is probably in my top 3 razors. It hones easy enough... but the shave!

Going on the topic of soft steel, Dixie Manufacturing in Union City Georgia made straight razors (and plow shares!). Its the only American razor made in the SouthEast US that im aware of. I have 2 of them, and they hone REALLY quick. The edge also tends to go quick. I think these are probably the "softest steel" razors I own, but man do they shave well! Touchup is often, but it's a quick affair.

 

[Gamma]

Could be softer, could be lack of wear resistance. Could be both. Could also be the HT was compromised by someone with greaseless and a buffer. I've had 2-3 Dixies, long time ago, no issues with them and I don't recall them feeling 'soft' on the stones. I think every one of the USA made blades I've owned, which is a fair number, have been very much on-point. But, no manufacturer is perfect, so there's that.

Someone posted a comment about soft German steel on one of my videos not so very long ago. I may have removed it. I've been hearing that storyline quasi regularly since forever. Same thing gets uttered about Sheffield steels. A lot of blades made from earlier steels, like a lot of what was stamped Cast or Acier Fondue were definitely softer, due to manufacturing processes of the time. With progress, came improvements.

 

[JPO]

All my new production Böker razors comes with a paper that says that the hardness is 59. My Dovo razor are above 60 hrc.
I would consider 59 hrc to be on the soft end of the spectrum for razors.

I have one Böker razor made with Damasteel, i.e. PMC27 combined with RWL-34. This is in my opinion bordering on too soft. It is rated at 59 hrc. I suspect the PMC27 steel is softer, closer to 56-57. These two steel types will end up at different hardness levels with the same heat threat. The RWL-34 is in my opinion better on it's own.
The dark steel (PMC27) is struggling to hold a refined edge.
However, the fracture toughness is significantly better then some simpler carbon steels. So, you can still get a decent edge retention by allignig the edge with a leather strop. It will not chip out, even at 56-57 hrc.
A TI razor at a much higher hardness has a lower edge retention with my use when the razors are honed with a similar progression.

 

[Eben Stone]

Really doesn't pay to sweat this sort of thing.

I think it was one of your posts in another thread that got me curious... perhaps it was this one:

A decent vintage razor, good steel, decent geometry, isn't all that pricey.

That was from "what stones do I really need" thread. I think the "good steel" comment just meant not a RSO, correct?