Have Shapton Pro 2k,5k,8k - What next?

[catchacoolbreeze]

Hi Everyone - I got really into the hobby and picked up a bunch of equipment. Then we had our first child, got overwhelmed with everything, and put everything on pause. I have Tony Miller strops, a firehose linen strop, ~4 professionally honed razors that need touch up, ~4 test razors that need honing, a brand new Atoma 400 for lapping, and brand new Shapton Kuromaku Pros at 2k, 5k, and 8k.

I'm trying to get back into this but trying to figure out where to go from here to get good shaves. In retrospect, I probably should have got a Chosera 1k or a Shapton 1.5 for bevel setting but it is what it is. I believe I need a finisher and not sure what to get and forgot some of the knowledge I had when I got this equipment.

Budget is approx up to $200 if I can keep it there. Some potential options are:

Ultrafine/Translucent Ark - known quantity, affordable, but may be difficult to work on

Naniwa Gouken 12k (maybe even a 10k) - known quantity, affordably, synth edges are not as smooth naturals (some have reported)

JNAT - according to my shave notes this was the best edge I've had to date (I've had Shapton 12k, coticule, a TI that was honed by Griffith which I think was on a Thuringian, diamond pasted balsa) but I don't know where to source a stone of "known quality" and not sure if my lower budget gets me a better stone than an Ark, etc.

Other - ???

Ultimately, one approach is to try to get these razors shaving again or the other is to sell it off and stick to DEs. I'm willing to put the time in and learn the stones. Any thoughts on where to go from here to get these razors shaving again? Open to other suggestions. I don't know what I don't know.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Have you tried shaving off the 8k edge?

A lot depends on your beard and skin. Some folks shave just fine off a well stropped 8k, but most need the edge smoothed for comfort. Some shave well off an 8k and paste, Diamond, CBN or Chrome Oxide. A stick of pure Chrome Oxide is about $10, paste a piece of cardboard and experiment.

For me Jnats and Arks are the best shaving edges for my face, Jnats are easier than Arks, because Arks are much more work to set up properly and new stones are all over the map in quality and surface prep.

But once an Ark is properly set up, you are golden.

You can buy a Kopa Jnat from Chef Knives to Go, for about $75 that will produce stellar edges with diamond slurry, or experiment further with nagura.

They are dirt simple to use and can produce stellar edges, especially from an 8k edge. Go to CNTG web site and get on their mailing list for the Jnat Kopa, when they email you that they are in stock, jump on it as they sell out in days or hours.

You do not need a 8X3x2 inch stone to finish a razor, a quality Kopa stone is a lifetime purchase.

If you go synthetic, the 10k Suehiro polishes a bit better than the Naniwia 12k, but still can be harsh.

You will be fine with the 2k, and if you find yourself restoring beaters, pick up a $20 King 800, also great for knives.

 

[Christian1212]

I would have someone give you a fresh ark and jnat edge. Will probably want to go for one of those, arks will be easier to get to the stone you want. Jnats can be more fun IMO but can be expensive or a lot of hunting before you find that sweet one

 

[lightfoot]

That’s really close to my regular progression. I often go from the 8K to a razor paste/compound called White Lightning available from an Etsy vendor.

Super smooth shaves without any harshness. I do 8 strokes with it applied to Hot-Pressed watercolor paper.

 

[catchacoolbreeze]

Have you tried shaving off the 8k edge?

A lot depends on your beard and skin. Some folks shave just fine off a well stropped 8k, but most need the edge smoothed for comfort. Some shave well off an 8k and paste, Diamond, CBN or Chrome Oxide. A stick of pure Chrome Oxide is about $10, paste a piece of cardboard and experiment.

For me Jnats and Arks are the best shaving edges for my face, Jnats are easier than Arks, because Arks are much more work to set up properly and new stones are all over the map in quality and surface prep.

But once an Ark is properly set up, you are golden.

You can buy a Kopa Jnat from Chef Knives to Go, for about $75 that will produce stellar edges with diamond slurry, or experiment further with nagura.

They are dirt simple to use and can produce stellar edges, especially from an 8k edge. Go to CNTG web site and get on their mailing list for the Jnat Kopa, when they email you that they are in stock, jump on it as they sell out in days or hours.

You do not need a 8X3x2 inch stone to finish a razor, a quality Kopa stone is a lifetime purchase.

If you go synthetic, the 10k Suehiro polishes a bit better than the Naniwia 12k, but still can be harsh.

You will be fine with the 2k, and if you find yourself restoring beaters, pick up a $20 King 800, also great for knives.

Thanks for the thorough reply. Good to know I won't be hampered going from 8k to either a Jnat or Ark. I also appreciate the sourcing on a jnat in my budget.

Re:Ark - I read that people say it's a hard stone to hone on and one little mess up could send you back to ground zero. I'm curious if a wider (6x3x0.5) or longer (8x2x0.5) would help alleviate that issue as they are both within my budget. I don't fully understand where/what the greater potential for error is vs. Other stones so that may be a stupid question.

 

[Herrenberg]

Re:Ark - I read that people say it's a hard stone to hone on and one little mess up could send you back to ground zero. I'm curious if a wider (6x3x0.5) or longer (8x2x0.5) would help alleviate that issue as they are both within my budget. I don't fully understand where/what the greater potential for error is vs. Other stones so that may be a stupid question.

It's a very hard stone. I can't see where size would help.

Given a properly-prepared stone surface, the only issues I've had have been when the bevel was not perfectly set. Any irregularity you bring to a hard ark has a very high cost. It's about the worst case of any stone for that. A nasty feel and bad chipping are the consequences I've seen.

 

[catchacoolbreeze]

I would have someone give you a fresh ark and jnat edge. Will probably want to go for one of those, arks will be easier to get to the stone you want. Jnats can be more fun IMO but can be expensive or a lot of hunting before you find that sweet one

I may try to do this. However, I feel I've sent enough razors out for honing that I'm just tired of shelling out $20 to $30 per hone plus shipping. I'm mentally at a point I just rather put the money in the stone and go!

 

[catchacoolbreeze]

It's a very hard stone. I can't see where size would help.

Given a properly-prepared stone surface, the only issues I've had have been when the bevel was not perfectly set. Any irregularity you bring to a hard ark has a very high cost. It's about the worst case of any stone for that. A nasty feel and bad chipping are the consequences I've seen.

Gotcha thank you!

 

[Kyle89]

Re:Ark - I read that people say it's a hard stone to hone on and one little mess up could send you back to ground zero. I'm curious if a wider (6x3x0.5) or longer (8x2x0.5) would help alleviate that issue as they are both within my budget. I don't fully understand where/what the greater potential for error is vs. Other stones so that may be a stupid question.

I've only had one mishap on my 6x2 Black, but it was only because I flip the razor the wrong way and the metal went ding (and I said oops). No issues with size. Personally I find honing in hand a lot easier with smaller stones. Take your time, and chamfer your edges. Metal goes ding on arks and edges chip with a bad stroke, irregardless of size

 

[Keyvan]

I have the 12,000 Shapton Pro, which I purchased for the final polishing of wood plane blades. I don't know what benefit a higher grit stone would give you over a strop. Because the Shapton does not have a great deal of feedback, it took me a while to get a feel for it, but I do like it. My guess would be that you have everything you need, but I mainly use the stones for knife sharpening and I am trying to learn effective sharpening techniques for planes.

 

[Gamma]

Take a practice razor, and learn to set the bevel well enough so you can shave with it.
Wont' be the best shave but it should shave.
Then, and only then, progress.
Learn to hone with what you have and learn to reach max with what you have.
If you can't set a bevel, a 12k isn't going to help you.
If you need a sharpness bump after your 8k, then maybe a compound on a linen strop can help until you figure out if buying a finisher is the next move.

I would get the 1.5k Pro to set bevels.
The 2k is a decent stone but it's softer and slower and does not leave an accurate bevel like the 1.5k. The bevel is the edge, chase the bevel, chase finishers once the bevel is mastered

An 8k won't give an 8k edge until the bevel set and 5k work are done perfectly.

Finishing Arks are good stones to work with, yes they're hard, and that hardness should be respected, not feared.
Thing is, while you can go from an 8k to a super hard Ark, you probably won't realize the full benefit of the Ark unless you refine the 8k edge a bit further.

 

[catchacoolbreeze]

Take a practice razor, and learn to set the bevel well enough so you can shave with it.
Wont' be the best shave but it should shave.
Then, and only then, progress.
Learn to hone with what you have and learn to reach max with what you have.
If you can't set a bevel, a 12k isn't going to help you.
If you need a sharpness bump after your 8k, then maybe a compound on a linen strop can help until you figure out if buying a finisher is the next move.

I would get the 1.5k Pro to set bevels.
The 2k is a decent stone but it's softer and slower and does not leave an accurate bevel like the 1.5k. The bevel is the edge, chase the bevel, chase finishers once the bevel is mastered

An 8k won't give an 8k edge until the bevel set and 5k work are done perfectly.

Finishing Arks are good stones to work with, yes they're hard, and that hardness should be respected, not feared.
Thing is, while you can go from an 8k to a super hard Ark, you probably won't realize the full benefit of the Ark unless you refine the 8k edge a bit further.

Thank for the response. Getting the 1.5k seems easy enough and the price is right. I know I was between the 1.5 and the Chosera 1k - Does it matter which one?

Forgive my ignorance on "mastering" bevel setting - How will I know when I moved from good bevels to great bevels? I've done HHTs, tomatoes, looked at it with a light shining from a above, etc. What I do know is I've had razors pass an HHT at level 3 (or fail completely) but could still cut tomatoes and have no dings in the edge with above light.

My best shaves were with razors that passed an HHT at level 5 (some at 4 but never at 3 or below) both ways (held by tip-end, held by root-end). I always thought that was the because of the refinement of the edge caused of the finisher. However, if that is a proper bevel set, that is exactly what I want.

 

[Christian1212]

I may try to do this. However, I feel I've sent enough razors out for honing that I'm just tired of shelling out $20 to $30 per hone plus shipping. I'm mentally at a point I just rather put the money in the stone and go!

I think in that case then I would go for an ark. I think it is worth the extra money to get 3" wide stone. I would save jnats for when it will be okay if you get a dud stone and you already have a guaranteed finisher. Make a want to buy post though as well, might get a good deal. Cheers

 

[cugel]

I have a Trans Ark and a number of Japanese naturals. The ark leaves an edge that is as good as anything I can muster, but the Japanese stones are much, much more fun to use IMHO. I used to have a 12k Naniwa Super stone that yielded nice edges. Consider buying from a forum member in the BST section who usually will say if a stone can finish a razor. There are more than a few JNATs in use as door stops...

 

[duke762]

Yeah, what Gamma said. I do a 12k after 8k then I head for the Arks. I would not be happy sharpening razors without an Ark or 3...

Gamma said something a couple weeks back, about his progression onto the Arks, that blew my mind. He uses a Escher, between the 12k and the Ark. Nice idea, ease onto the Ark slowly, with your best edge possible. No big grit jumps.

IIRC, he said the edge off the Ark was different if the Escher is skipped. Now I have to buy an Escher to find out......

With a $200 budget, you may scare up a used, Black\Trans Ark for cheap on the bay and maybe sneak in a 12k. I use Shapton Pro's and love them! I have a whole progression of them and they are very well behaved. It seems like some higher grit synthetic stones, have quirks or personalities. The higher the grits can get mention they get spendy. I'll take an Ark any day.

Yes, you can do it.....

 

[Gamma]

Thank for the response. Getting the 1.5k seems easy enough and the price is right. I know I was between the 1.5 and the Chosera 1k - Does it matter which one?

Forgive my ignorance on "mastering" bevel setting - How will I know when I moved from good bevels to great bevels?.

If you can shave off the bevel set you are there or close. Once that is achieved, see if it can be improved.

I dont use HHTs to qualify edges, never used them actually. Have shaved with more than a few HHT proffed blades, I’ll just say that I think thete are too many variables to use it as a universal qualifier. Cutting foods doesn’t work for me either, I can sharpen a credit card on 600x w/d and slice up a fruit salad.

Since you are getting back into this after a while not doing it, it might be good to start at the foundation and work through the process.

The Shap Pro 1.5k is on par with a Chosera 1k, I have both and use them interchangeably. I keep the 2k Pro around to tune up cutlery or to do cleanup on extreme bevel-set work. Guys used to use a Norton 4k to set bevels, and while that also will work, I find the SP 1.5k or Cho 1k to be significantly better suited to the task. For my bevel work, harder/faster > softer/slower.

 

[catchacoolbreeze]

Yeah, what Gamma said. I do a 12k after 8k then I head for the Arks. I would not be happy sharpening razors without an Ark or 3...

Gamma said something a couple weeks back, about his progression onto the Arks, that blew my mind. He uses a Escher, between the 12k and the Ark. Nice idea, ease onto the Ark slowly, with your best edge possible. No big grit jumps.

IIRC, he said the edge off the Ark was different if the Escher is skipped. Now I have to buy an Escher to find out......

With a $200 budget, you may scare up a used, Black\Trans Ark for cheap on the bay and maybe sneak in a 12k. I use Shapton Pro's and love them! I have a whole progression of them and they are very well behaved. It seems like some higher grit synthetic stones, have quirks or personalities. The higher the grits can get mention they get spendy. I'll take an Ark any day.

Yes, you can do it.....

Thanks for the vote of confidence!!!

 

[catchacoolbreeze]

I have a Trans Ark and a number of Japanese naturals. The ark leaves an edge that is as good as anything I can muster, but the Japanese stones are much, much more fun to use IMHO. I used to have a 12k Naniwa Super stone that yielded nice edges. Consider buying from a forum member in the BST section who usually will say if a stone can finish a razor. There are more than a few JNATs in use as door stops...

I will definitely keep and eye out on the BST. I haven't seen a lot lately but admittedly, I was not searching everyday either. Thank you!

 

[*stefan*]

@catchacoolbreeze, you can start honing with the stones you have already.
Very good training to end with 8000# and shave. Then see if you can improve the edge.
Only light stroke on the 8000#.

You can also test doing touch up using the 8000# or 5000# and 8000#.

No hurry to get a finisher. If you continue honing you will get several anyway with time....

 

[catchacoolbreeze]

Just a little bit of update - I decided to tackle this from both angles and I'm under budget! I got a 1.5k Shapton to really practice my bevel sets on - this will be with my 4 test razors.

I also just ordered a Dan's Translucent Ark in 6x2x1/2. It was between this and a 8x2 ultrafine but the translucent tugged at my heart strings a bit more and it seemed more fun. I was probably going to get an Ark anyway and I have 4 razors with "professional" edges on them in jnat/coticule/etc. Since, the end edge is considered by y'all as the total progression of stones that lead up to it and not just the end finisher, I plan on using the Ark to tune those edges up. Obviously, if the shave sucks I won't be able to confirm what the cause was i.e. non-perfect bevel set, etc. However, if the shave comes out great it will give me a good idea of a potential stone after the 8k that I can setup with in the future. I will also play with shaving off the 8k and see how it goes.

I'm hoping this gives me some meaningful data points, and keeps me interested and in the game for a bit as I'm trying to keep the momentum going. Thanks everyone!