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- #41
Interesting!
Have Shapton Pro 2k,5k,8k - What next?
- Thread starter catchacoolbreeze
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- #42
I will try to get some posted but it did "pass" the sharpie test in one stroke and when I looked at it under magnification, the scratch pattern was uniform across the whole blade.
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- #43
I did see swarf when I put the tape on, albeit less swarf than when the tape was off.
Compared to JeffT in the video, my "X" strokes did not have the horizontal hook at the end. I am not sure if that is important or not.
Some off this can also be caused by a burr that is leaning to one side. You should be able to see this just by reflecting the bevel under light source. Direct sunlight is really effective.
If this is the case you can lightly joint the edge and bring it back with a few light laps.
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- #45
Here are some non-magnified pics of the razor. Not sure if anything can be interpreted from this. Will try to get magnified ones later.
A set bevel from a 1.5k shapton will shave arm/leg hair easily. It will dig into your fingernail and not let go. Until the razor will shave from the 1.5k shapton, you aren't there. Hopefully you are close though. In my experience, when things don't work out like I think they should it is because of compounding errors. Pressure problem x torque problem x stone not flat x stroke problem = no bevel.
Go for the naniwa 12k rather than the shapton. It’s cheaper and people have reported that the shapton 12k has made micro chips in their razors… just something to watch out for.
So, the razor appears to have an even grind and is not warped. It should be an easy razor to hone.
I was only able to enlarge one photo that would focus on the middle of the bevel. That part of the bevel did not appear to have a uniform stria pattern and the edge looked fuzzy.
That style of shoulderless, thin grind is susceptible to easily flexing the blade when honing with pressure. This will hone the razor on the back of the bevel and will lift the edge off the stone or at least prevent the edge from making full contact with the stone.
That would explain the fuzzy edge and lack of sharpness.
Look straight down on the edge with magnification. You likely will see shiny reflections, sparkles like in Photo 1 below, where the bevels are not meeting fully. If you see a solid shiny line, the bevels are not meeting at all.
Put a layer of electrical tape on the spine, ink the bevels with colored sharpie, (Red, Blue, and Green are easy to see without magnification), now do a series of 10 X strokes using a minimum of pressure. The tape will increase the angle a bit making the razor easier to get the bevels to meet and will protect the spine from excessive wear.
Keep using tape until you master honing, then decide if you want to continue to use tape. There is no downside to using tape, especially when learning to hone.
After 10 laps look straight down on the edge and see if the bevels have improved and if the stria pattern on the bevels are more uniform. Re ink the bevels and do another 10 laps until the bevels are meeting fully and there are no shiny reflections like in photo 2.
You want X strokes with minimal pressure. You are probably pretty close, 40-50 light X laps should get them to meeting fully.
Bevel almost fully set, note shiny reflections
Bevel fully set, no shiny reflections. The edge looks grey.
I was only able to enlarge one photo that would focus on the middle of the bevel. That part of the bevel did not appear to have a uniform stria pattern and the edge looked fuzzy.
That style of shoulderless, thin grind is susceptible to easily flexing the blade when honing with pressure. This will hone the razor on the back of the bevel and will lift the edge off the stone or at least prevent the edge from making full contact with the stone.
That would explain the fuzzy edge and lack of sharpness.
Look straight down on the edge with magnification. You likely will see shiny reflections, sparkles like in Photo 1 below, where the bevels are not meeting fully. If you see a solid shiny line, the bevels are not meeting at all.
Put a layer of electrical tape on the spine, ink the bevels with colored sharpie, (Red, Blue, and Green are easy to see without magnification), now do a series of 10 X strokes using a minimum of pressure. The tape will increase the angle a bit making the razor easier to get the bevels to meet and will protect the spine from excessive wear.
Keep using tape until you master honing, then decide if you want to continue to use tape. There is no downside to using tape, especially when learning to hone.
After 10 laps look straight down on the edge and see if the bevels have improved and if the stria pattern on the bevels are more uniform. Re ink the bevels and do another 10 laps until the bevels are meeting fully and there are no shiny reflections like in photo 2.
You want X strokes with minimal pressure. You are probably pretty close, 40-50 light X laps should get them to meeting fully.
Bevel almost fully set, note shiny reflections
Bevel fully set, no shiny reflections. The edge looks grey.
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- #49
I am not sure what is harder - honing or using magnification. I feel like a need a jig or 3 hands to do this. This is the best I could do. They are not perfect. Looking down at the apex was near impossible for me, I could not get it to focus and stay still long enough for me to click a picture.
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- #50
My thoughts are exactly this! Thank you!
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- #51
Got it! Thanks for the tip regarding shoulderless razor - I would have never guessed that would have done anything. I was using pressure and I'm going to try to lighten things up a bit.
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- #52
another failed attempt this evening. I even tried a razor with a rear stabilizer. Same result - bevel goes all he way to the end. Passes sharpie test but none of the sharpness test. Tomorrow is a new day.
If this portion of the edge is representative for the full length of the bevel i would just move up in the progression. Some steels don't give you a really refined 1k edge.
Don't be led to believe you need to shave off this edge.
Some steels will not give you a highly refined 1k edge. Both of these razors are from the same stone.
1k dovo edge.
1k Gold Dollar edge
Did you try the Face Hair Test?
Not being facetious here - try as I might I am unable to shave armhair with blades that give a smooth and comfortable two pass shave. Tests are personal enough that I see them as useful only once you can reliably correlate a test, as performed by you, to good outcomes, as achieved by you. They aren't diagnostic of good outcomes in any absolute sense.
At this point I would move to the next stone. After you are done with your next stone strop your razor and see where you are. I bet it will pass all the tests.
Yup, I suspect that you have flat bevels and an edge, the problem is what you are expecting from a hair test. Hair tests are subjective and must be calibrated by the user, know what to expect.
At 1k I only use a tree top arm hair test to see if the edge will grab a hair, and then I look straight down on the edge for any chips or large spots where the bevels are not meeting.
As said move up to the transition stone and polish off all the 1k stria. Start with circles, probably 20 or so, to remove the bulk of the deep stria, this will make stria on the bevel that runs in all direction, but 10-20 light X laps will remove all the horizontal stria and lay a uniform new stria pattern down.
If you still see deep stria, do more X laps until you get an even stria pattern, watch your pressure on the X laps, you can use some pressure with the circles.
Do not do X laps like on the first video in post, 25 with the swoop at the end. Doing so will make horizontal stria and edge chipping. Do an X or reverse J stroke only curving to the opposite corner at the end of the stroke so that most of the razor is on the stone for the majority of the lap.
Make your X stroke more like Doc’s in the second video, notice that he uses circles to set the bevel and at the transition stone to remove the deep stria then lays down a uniform stria pattern and refine the edge with X strokes.
At 1k I only use a tree top arm hair test to see if the edge will grab a hair, and then I look straight down on the edge for any chips or large spots where the bevels are not meeting.
As said move up to the transition stone and polish off all the 1k stria. Start with circles, probably 20 or so, to remove the bulk of the deep stria, this will make stria on the bevel that runs in all direction, but 10-20 light X laps will remove all the horizontal stria and lay a uniform new stria pattern down.
If you still see deep stria, do more X laps until you get an even stria pattern, watch your pressure on the X laps, you can use some pressure with the circles.
Do not do X laps like on the first video in post, 25 with the swoop at the end. Doing so will make horizontal stria and edge chipping. Do an X or reverse J stroke only curving to the opposite corner at the end of the stroke so that most of the razor is on the stone for the majority of the lap.
Make your X stroke more like Doc’s in the second video, notice that he uses circles to set the bevel and at the transition stone to remove the deep stria then lays down a uniform stria pattern and refine the edge with X strokes.
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- #57
I did not but now that you mention it, what you are saying makes more sense. I guess I thought there was "objective non-relative" criteria for this but it sounds less absolute. Thank you.
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- #58
When I look down at the edge with direct light with high power LED flashlight from multiple directions, I see no burr on either razor.
alright! I will give it a go on finer stones this evening. One weird thing that did happen - when I tried to bevel set the second razor (with rear stabilizer), I was able to get it to pass an HHT, but in only one direction. Then I put it back on the 1.5k to keep going, and when I went to test again, and it failed in both directions. That made me think it was more user error, but maybe its just the steel/stone/technique combo and my expectations are wonky. (both razors are Soligen - 1 is a Henckel, the other is an Estes). Thanks everyone!
alright! I will give it a go on finer stones this evening. One weird thing that did happen - when I tried to bevel set the second razor (with rear stabilizer), I was able to get it to pass an HHT, but in only one direction. Then I put it back on the 1.5k to keep going, and when I went to test again, and it failed in both directions. That made me think it was more user error, but maybe its just the steel/stone/technique combo and my expectations are wonky. (both razors are Soligen - 1 is a Henckel, the other is an Estes). Thanks everyone!
“I did not but now that you mention it, what you are saying makes more sense. I guess I thought there was "objective non-relative" criteria for this but it sounds less absolute.”
“When I look down at the edge with direct light with high power LED flashlight from multiple directions, I see no burr on either razor.”
“alright! I will give it a go on finer stones this evening. One weird thing that did happen - when I tried to bevel set the second razor (with rear stabilizer), I was able to get it to pass an HHT, but in only one direction. Then I put it back on the 1.5k to keep going, and when I went to test again, and it failed in both directions.”
Hair test are totally subjective. Look at a 1k edge with magnification, it is microscopically serrated, of course it will not consistently cut hair.
Looking straight down on an edge you are not looking for a burr, you are looking to see if the bevels are meeting. Any shiny reflections are where the bevels are not meeting or a chip. If you see a long shiny line, the bevels are not meeting at all.
“when I tried to bevel set the second razor (with rear stabilizer), I was able to get it to pass an HHT, but in only one direction.”
What do you mean in one direction?
If you mean it will cut on one side and not the other, you have rolled or bent the edge in one direction. Totally normal the last side to touch the stone will bend the edge slightly in the opposite direction.
Strop the razor on leather to straighten the edge and Surprise, surprise an edge that would not cut hair… will cut hair!
It is why I strop between stones. Does it matter, don't know, doe it hurt anything? No.
I get good shaving edges.
“When I look down at the edge with direct light with high power LED flashlight from multiple directions, I see no burr on either razor.”
“alright! I will give it a go on finer stones this evening. One weird thing that did happen - when I tried to bevel set the second razor (with rear stabilizer), I was able to get it to pass an HHT, but in only one direction. Then I put it back on the 1.5k to keep going, and when I went to test again, and it failed in both directions.”
Hair test are totally subjective. Look at a 1k edge with magnification, it is microscopically serrated, of course it will not consistently cut hair.
Looking straight down on an edge you are not looking for a burr, you are looking to see if the bevels are meeting. Any shiny reflections are where the bevels are not meeting or a chip. If you see a long shiny line, the bevels are not meeting at all.
“when I tried to bevel set the second razor (with rear stabilizer), I was able to get it to pass an HHT, but in only one direction.”
What do you mean in one direction?
If you mean it will cut on one side and not the other, you have rolled or bent the edge in one direction. Totally normal the last side to touch the stone will bend the edge slightly in the opposite direction.
Strop the razor on leather to straighten the edge and Surprise, surprise an edge that would not cut hair… will cut hair!
It is why I strop between stones. Does it matter, don't know, doe it hurt anything? No.
I get good shaving edges.
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- #60
I'm amazed at the differences in experiences on what should or should not be possible regarding a 1.5k edge.
Looking down at bevel I see nothing shiney in any light condition I put razor in. With HHT - I meant root-out or tip-out but I get what you mean.
I'll progress to other stones and see where this experiment takes me!
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