Dilemma

[kayvee]

I incorrectly asked a question (Water stone for setting bevel - https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/threads/water-stone-for-setting-bevel.640855/post-12286170) in another thread without context - so here's the full question with context.

I'm a beginner learner - recently honed my first razor from bevel to finish with help from many of you - particularly @H Brad Boonshaft. I used Shapton Pro 1500 for bevel setting and film thereafter - 3um and 1um. After this experience, it is clear that I should focus my honing for now to synthetic stones with well defined grits so that my honing would be predictable. At some point in the future, I hope to move to natural stones and hope to use my Arkansas Surgical Black as well.

Now I went through an entire sheet of 3um in honing just 1 razor. I know, I made mistakes in learning - tore the edge of the film, used up too much grit in the center of the film (the razor had a warp), and so on. Frankly, I don't know that I won't make more mistakes with my second (or third) honing.

For now, I face a choice. I can either get more film - spend $30 and get film - some I'll use (3um, 1um) some I won't (30um, 9um, 0.3um). Maybe it'll last me for two razors this time. Or, I can spend similar amount of money and get two stones - which may last longer. I was thinking of ordering Proyan glass stones directly from the manufacturer (Taidea) through their Alipay store - https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256804413841446.html. I could get 6000, 10000, 15000 for about ($90) and hopefully that'll last me a lifetime of synthetic stones and afford more learning.

I did read the responses to my question. I just wanted to be sure to a) give context and b) make sure these responses apply to the models I'm thinking of

They are generally smaller stones, very soft and self -slurry, that can scratch a razor belly. Where they save money is cheap or using less binder.

Those cheap Chinese synth waterstones wear super fast. They'll cut steel but they are really hard to keep flat.

The assigned grits were way incorrect, like not even close. The abrasives used aren't consistent leading to uneven scratch patterns with a lot of rogue gouges. They are soft and dish fast. A couple were soft in some areas and harder in others and wouldn't lap flat. The fake glass stone was 1/3 of the advertised 'grit', soft, and seemingly useless to me.

Thanks for reading

 

[Christian1212]

Send me a pm. I might have some stones I can sell for a good price (8k synthetic and 5k synthetix)

 

[Herrenberg]

The working assumption should be that the stones you are considering are garbage. You would be much better off getting one or two more good stones for the same amount of money you are considering spending on garbage.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Spend your money on a good 8k that will remove 1k stria. Learning to hone, the last thing you want/need are stones that are fighting you.

From a solid near mirror 8K bevel and straight edge you have lot of options for finishers or just strop and shave. You can easily finish a razor on 1um film easily, from a solid 8k edge.

You can get a mid-grit stone, 4-6k but if the 8k is aggressive, Naniwia Fugi or Snow White or others, you can skip the mid grit. Lots of good 8k in the wild, and if you are not going to be shaving off the 8k, which 8k is the "finest/best" does not matter.

A 1-8k grit jump is not that unusual, back in the day, (pre synthetic stones) for hundreds of years folks hone everything, razors include, on a low grit stone and a fine grit.

This grit progression obsession is a relatively new, internet forum creation.

The trick to learning and perfecting your honing technique is eliminating as many variables as possible. While you can hone with those stones, you are introducing a host of variables.

Again a King 6k is $20.

 

[kcb5150]

I would avoid dirt cheap high grit synths like the plague. And used is a nice way to go to build up a synth progression with proven stones.

 

[kayvee]

Got it. I just didn't want to thread jack the other thread (on bevel setting) and wanted to clear my doubts.

This is crystal clear. Thanks again for the direction!

 

[JPO]

I incorrectly asked a question (Water stone for setting bevel - https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/threads/water-stone-for-setting-bevel.640855/post-12286170) in another thread without context - so here's the full question with context.

I'm a beginner learner - recently honed my first razor from bevel to finish with help from many of you - particularly @H Brad Boonshaft. I used Shapton Pro 1500 for bevel setting and film thereafter - 3um and 1um. After this experience, it is clear that I should focus my honing for now to synthetic stones with well defined grits so that my honing would be predictable. At some point in the future, I hope to move to natural stones and hope to use my Arkansas Surgical Black as well.

Now I went through an entire sheet of 3um in honing just 1 razor. I know, I made mistakes in learning - tore the edge of the film, used up too much grit in the center of the film (the razor had a warp), and so on. Frankly, I don't know that I won't make more mistakes with my second (or third) honing.

For now, I face a choice. I can either get more film - spend $30 and get film - some I'll use (3um, 1um) some I won't (30um, 9um, 0.3um). Maybe it'll last me for two razors this time. Or, I can spend similar amount of money and get two stones - which may last longer. I was thinking of ordering Proyan glass stones directly from the manufacturer (Taidea) through their Alipay store - https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256804413841446.html. I could get 6000, 10000, 15000 for about ($90) and hopefully that'll last me a lifetime of synthetic stones and afford more learning.

I did read the responses to my question. I just wanted to be sure to a) give context and b) make sure these responses apply to the models I'm thinking of







Thanks for reading

If you don't mind using smaller stones, these two stone would cover you well after your 1500 shapton. It is always nice to also have a mid range stone, but you can also fill the gap with film.

 

[ZeelandsRoem]

If I were you, instead of buying more film or Chinese stones, I would buy the 16k G7 and use it after 1k. Start with a bit of pressure to remove more metal and lower the pressure gradually to finish the edge, it is fast stone and can do the job (although not optimally). You don’t hone a few razors every day, so it doesn’t matter if you spend a bit more time on the stone.

When you have the budget, you can buy one midrange as well and then you have a pretty good setup.

I think it’s better to have 2 good quality stones instead of spending more money on film or buying Chinese stones.

 

[kcb5150]

I just feel like instructing someone new to honing to use pressure to compensate for the inadequacies of their progression is sort of setting them up for some real frustration throwing even more variables into the mix.

 

[kayvee]

If you don't mind using smaller stones, these two stone would cover you well after your 1500 shapton. It is always nice to also have a mid range stone, but you can also fill the gap with film.
View attachment 1673565

Straight to 1.2 after the Shapton 1500? Did you mean the 3u first? Also curious about both 1.2 and .85 - does that make that much of a difference to use both?

 

[ZeelandsRoem]

I just feel like instructing someone new to honing to use pressure to compensate for the inadequacies of their progression is sort of setting them up for some real frustration throwing even more variables into the mix.

I do get what you’re saying and of course, it is not ideal, but starting with a bit (light) pressure and then finishing with no pressure at all on a Shapton glass stone isn’t a big problem. It doesn’t come close to the pressure applied when removing a chip in the edge or setting a bevel, for example.

To be honest, I find this less frustrating than using crappy stones or film. And just for the record, film can be okay in the beginning until one can figure out if it wants to take things more seriously and invest in stones.

 

[kcb5150]

It's more guys new to this don't really have a concept of what pressure means with regards to a straight razor. Look at what guys who consider themselves seasoned at sharpening knives do to butcher a straight razor on the first try. Stones are definitely preferable I agree. I mean I don't like combo synths personally but you could probably build a full progression pretty cheaply buying imanishi made combos second hand up to like 10k.

 

[Herrenberg]

It's more guys new to this don't really have a concept of what pressure means with regards to a straight razor.

Yes indeed. I didn't. And I was applying most of that excessive pressure to the spine, where it did very little except wear out the razor prematurely.

 

[kayvee]

You can get a mid-grit stone, 4-6k but if the 8k is aggressive, Naniwia Fugi or Snow White or others, you can skip the mid grit. Lots of good 8k in the wild, and if you are not going to be shaving off the 8k, which 8k is the "finest/best" does not matter.

Just curious why Fuji is cheaper than Snow White if Fuji punches above its weight (reportedly). Should I just pick Fuji and move on?

 

[JPO]

Straight to 1.2 after the Shapton 1500? Did you mean the 3u first? Also curious about both 1.2 and .85 - does that make that much of a difference to use both?

Yes, use the 3 u first. The 0.85 after the 1.2 u makes a big difference.
The Shapton pro 5k is also good and nice to have, but for a minimum setup you should get by quite well if you use the 3 u film first.

 

[JPO]

Just curious why Fuji is cheaper than Snow White if Fuji punches above its weight (reportedly). Should I just pick Fuji and move on?

I believe the Fuji is a little finer then the Snow White. The snow white is faster and harder then the Fuji.
You can get a good shave off the Fuji.
You can use something like the Naniwa 4k Hayabusa and 8k Fuji after your 1.5 k Shapton. They are both really nice. For extra sharpness you can just use a fine abrasive spray or a fine lapping film.

 

[rbscebu]

@kayvee, I assume that you are not honing multiple SRs each week. As such, having to lap flat often should really not enter into your decision.

I have found no problems with bevel-setting and intially refining using just Chinese water whetstones; 400/1k and 3k/8k. From there I will move on to 5μm, 3μm and 1μm films before finishing on my preferred finisher; Cnat, HBA, coticule, pasted balsa, etc.

I rarely use the 30μm, 12μm, 9μm and 0.3μm films in my honing but they come in handy when restoring SRs. I purchase my lapping films on AliExpress where a seven-sheet set costs less than US$20 including shipping.

As you improve your honing technique, you will find that a ⅓ strip of lapping film will be good for 5 or more SR honings. For me, my seven-sheet set is good for about 20 separate SR honings. As a SR should only need honing once using films, that becomes a lot of SRs in your stable.

By all means consider exploring the use of more expensive natural/synthetic whetstones for bevel-setting and refinement once your technique improves. It is better however, to learn on the cheaper stuff. All is not lost, those cheaper whetstones can later be used when restoring SRs or working on knives.

 

[Wid]

Put a wanted to buy add on the BST forum.

 

[Steve56]

Look at what guys who consider themselves seasoned at sharpening knives do to butcher a straight razor on the first try.

That was me ~15 years ago. Really many of us. The first thing that you have to learn is that a straight razor is not a small knife and cannot be honed like a knife.

 

[ZeelandsRoem]

It's more guys new to this don't really have a concept of what pressure means with regards to a straight razor. Look at what guys who consider themselves seasoned at sharpening knives do to butcher a straight razor on the first try.

This is a good point, although in this case, I am not sure if stone vs film would make a big difference. Excessive pressure on either one will ruin things quickly, especially if, as you say, a razor is treated as a regular knife. I actually saw this once in a “restoration video” on YouTube.

Before I honed my first razor, I read a few opinions and I decided it was best to start with zero pressure. I spent some time to understand how it behaved and what were the results. Then, I marginally increased the pressure if it was necessary until I reached the results I was looking for. I am not saying this is the best way to do it because it took me 2-3 days to get where I wanted to but at least I played on the safe side.