Minimal stone investment?

[albsat]

Greetings to all,

I am not having success with lapping films or balsa with my (former) shave ready cheap razors. Maybe now they are not shave ready now and I am not turning with my lack of experience into comfortable shaves so far.

Based on your experience, apart of a bevel setter (1000 grit), what would be your minimal stone suggestion to invest?

I have been suggested that a jnat can be one for all stone but hard to learn and I would need a diamond plate also. (Bthw can I create slurry on Jnat using a 1000 grit paper?)

Glad to read some suggestions on a minimal stone investment? My preferred budget is 100 usd, shipping to Europe.

Cheers

 

[Legion]

Many ways to skin the cat, but a good coticule could potentially take you from bevel to finish on one stone, with practice. Maybe $100-150 for a decent size bout? Since you are in Europe you should probably enquire directly to Ardennes.

The other thing about coticules is they hold their value. So if you decided to sell it for some reason you would get your dough back.

You can't use sandpaper to make slurry, as the paper will release grit particles into the slurry.

 

[Seelector]

I had good luck with lapping film, I used it successfully for a long time before I got sick of fiddling with it.

If your razor was truly shave ready, I’d suggest getting a synth in the 8k-ish range and finishing in your film. The 8k should bring the edge back and then jump to 1um film.

You can expand your stone lineup slowly over time while filling in the gaps with film.

Post some pictures of your razor and you’ll get some honing help.

 

[Kyle89]

Lately all I've been using is my coticule bout and my 6x2 black ark. Frankly for most maintenance aside from chips or bevel work, I can happily survive with just those 2 stones. Unsure about current used or new values but I was able to get my coti for ~70 bucks and my ark for ~50 bucks (US) both new.

 

[GreazyThumbs]

Coticule after bevel set is probably the most logical choice. Or keep your eye out for a used set of Naniwa Super Stones (5K / 8K / 12K).

 

[pravula]

Minimal as in cost or number of stones?

 

[Gamma]

Define 'cheap razor'.
Note - if the razor really can take an edge, and you are unable to sharpen them on film, then buying stones probably won't fix your issue.
If you really did have a shave ready razor and you couldn't keep the edge on a diamond pasted strop, buying stones won't solve that issue either.
Diamond is MSG for edges. Diamond slurry can make an avocado shave ready.

I do a lot of honing on Shapton Pro stones. I can get an edge I don't hate using the 1.5k, 5k followed by a good quality abrasive compound.
Out of everything here, that is probably the most austere, and reasonable, combination that will still yield an acceptable edge.

Most would want to add the 8k and I usually won't argue unless the abrasive is diamond.

Yes, I could, and have, sharpened edges on a Coti Slurry stone, lets not get ridiculous here.
For a go-to honing solution that is fairly simple, approachable in price, does not have a shallow learning curve, etc...
Two synths, maybe 3, and some paste.
Yes, a shallow curve means the process takes longer to learn. Steep curves show faster progress.

I opt for known quality stones, like The Pro stones because..
a - they're very proven,
b - when you need help there are a ton of people that can help.
Shapton Glass Stones or Naniwa Super Stones or Gouken Arata are in the same league.

But knowing how to hone is a key component as is having a razor that can take and keep an edge for more than a minute.

 

[Wid]

I’m going to have to agree with Keith here. If you can’t hone on lapping films a new stone isn’t the answer.

A good chance you need to go to bevel set here. Without nailing the bevel you cannot have a shave ready razor.

What is the razor?

 

[lightfoot]

If you’re dealing with a very low budget I wouldn’t hesitate to go with a shavette rather than honing in a heartbeat. Perhaps you may already have one.

While one doesn’t need to spend a fortune on stones discovering what works for you will likely run into some unforeseen costs both in the short and long term.

The Focus R21 is a superb shavette. Seriously it’s unbelievable and takes 1/2 DE blades.

Shave well and gather your finances in the meantime so that you have some real options later.

 

[rhgg2]

My experience as a recent beginner was that films were pretty foolproof, balsa was not. My biggest step up in edge quality came from stopping using the balsa. Moving from films to synth stones made everything harder for a while, but I was fed up of messing around with film. So you could experiment with dropping the balsa and see what happens.

 

[Acmemfg]

A 1k King and coticule of your choice (LaVeinette for me) is the definitive minimalist set up.

 

[captaincaed]

My 2c from the perspective of someone who recently learned how to get from "OK" edges to "I really like this" edges.

In short: You already know about a 1-2k. Make it a good, razor specific stone or you’ll fight it. After, a Naniwa Hayabusa and Fuji are a great pair, not too expensive. The Fuji is a pretty good shaving edge, that could be easily stropped finer. They’re a little slower, but very good. A 400-600 diamond plate will help refresh your stones to keep them cutting at a reasonable speed. If you can double the budget, you could be in good shape with a predictable
set up.

A little more:

The biggest factor was getting the initial bevel sharp and clean. Once the two planes meet properly to form an honest to gosh, down to the gnats ***, real apex, the rest is mostly careful polishing and stropping. But if that isn't done then you're just polishing the sides of a rounded hill. A 400-1k edge should just tree top and shave hair (not comfortably, just technically). Simple idea, the trick is being honest with yourself about getting there.

For that, a quality 1-2k stone was the key. I'll second Shapton (any flavor) and Naniwa as options that work well for me.

Cheaper stones, and stones that weren't oriented toward razors made the learning process more frustrating. For that reason I'd say a minimal setup includes a quality bevel setting stone that razor people recommend. A good knife stone may leave deep scratches that are harder to refine. Great for cutting veggies and meat, but your face is also made of meat. You don't want to cut that.

After that, there are many paths up the mountain to a razor edge. Synthetics are most predictable.

 

[albsat]

Thank you to all for your valuable wisdom!

I didn't turn this thread as a help one for my situation. I use shavettes successfully. The shaves I get from my straight razors compared to a shavette one (don't have other to compare) right now is (10 is the level of shavette):

Sharpness : 8/10
Skin feeling : 4/10

I need to buy a loupe to see the edge quality, check the flatness of my glass, quality of my films and effect of the stropping (too many variables and I don't have a stone yet)

Back to my question, this are the suggestions if I understood correctly :

1) Bevel setter stone (1000 grit) + Coticule + diamond plate
2) Shapton Pro 1.5k, 5k followed by a good quality abrasive compound.
3) Bevel setter + Coticule (LaVeinete)
4) Synthetic stones, 1000, 5000, 8000 and 12,000 grit.
5) I am adding bevel setter + jnat + nagura.

Thank you again! Feel free to correct me.

 

[Christian1212]

I would stick with options 2 or 4.

Learning how to hone with naturals can be a pain because the finish capability is unknown, so there is room for - is it the stone or is it me problems.

Bright side about the synthetics - if you get shapton or naniwa they should be easy to sell if this is not your thing. Time is money, and the time saved with learning on synthetics will be worth it.

 

[Eshebert]

There is no place for minimum and stone in the same sentence. It’s blasphemy.

 

[albsat]

There is no place for minimum and stone in the same sentence. It’s blasphemy.

You are right, but in one of your post you had great results with a King 1000, King 6000 and Adaee 12000. I hope I can master that system one day as to me seems a good economical investment.

 

[Eshebert]

I still use that 1/6 on the road, but is no comparing it to shapton or Naniwa products. I use it as a travel option (keep it at work) to set up my naturals. I used the ADAEE just recently, you can get a decent edge from it, but it takes a ton of work. If you have to time and the patients it’s doable, I have read many that like that stone. If I had to suggest an affordable option, I would suppers a Arata 1K or 2k, and a Coticule. Thats 2 stones and you can do it all with those 2.

 

[Seelector]

Thank you to all for your valuable wisdom!

I didn't turn this thread as a help one for my situation. I use shavettes successfully. The shaves I get from my straight razors compared to a shavette one (don't have other to compare) right now is (10 is the level of shavette):

Sharpness : 8/10
Skin feeling : 4/10

I need to buy a loupe to see the edge quality, check the flatness of my glass, quality of my films and effect of the stropping (too many variables and I don't have a stone yet)

Back to my question, this are the suggestions if I understood correctly :

1) Bevel setter stone (1000 grit) + Coticule + diamond plate
2) Shapton Pro 1.5k, 5k followed by a good quality abrasive compound.
3) Bevel setter + Coticule (LaVeinete)
4) Synthetic stones, 1000, 5000, 8000 and 12,000 grit.
5) I am adding bevel setter + jnat + nagura.

Thank you again! Feel free to correct me.

I'm with @Christian1212, stick with options 2 or 4. Going 5k to a compound seems like a big jump but I have no experience with that so maybe it's just fine. My lineup is essentially #4 with a couple naturals that I've slowly added.

My first natural was a coticule that gave me a lot of trouble while I figured it out. I'm still not very proficient as using it for anything other than a finisher. I can't imagine how frustrating it would be to learn honing on that stone, and not really knowing what a good edge feels like.

 

[Ravenonrock]

Purchasing synthetic stones has worked out well for me. I started with 1,3,8,12k Naniwa specialty/super stones. Honing by numbers simplified things. I added CroOx on linen to supplement. Still using all the same stones years later. I have only replaced the 1k with a Shapton glass as I did plenty of bevel work on beaters. The initial investment was worth it to me as it got me on track quickly producing comfortable edges for my preferences. I also really enjoy honing, so that helped.

 

[Alum of Potash]

Given your restrictions, $100 USD and shipping to Europe, I would suggest you check out Knives and Tools, which I think is based in the Netherlands but also has offices in France and the UK, if not more. Your price limit is the biggest hurdle to surmount, but if you were comfortable with honing with small hones/stones in the hand, this might be a way to come close. For example, the Naniwa Pocket Pro line of hones are 45 mm x 135 mm as to surface, which is not far in surface area from the American barber hones of old (~50mm x ~125 mm). If you were to pick up the 1000 and 3000 grit hones, and a 40 mm x 100 mm selected coticule, that would get you there for 118 euros plus shipping inside Europe. Lapping of the hones and stone could be achieved using wet/dry sandpaper and a thick slab of plate glass, and maintenance of the edge could be done with a Solingen loom or felt-lined paddle strop (red or black paste on one side, the other left plain).