Best face feel from naniwa 12ss

[matt n]

Hi all
Any tips for a smoother edge from nanawa 12SS?
So far it seems that to get keen enough if the wants to shave arm hair at 4 k or start to tree top.
I've been lighly stroping on clean leather between stones. The stones used are shapton pro 2K, sg 4k, 8kss,12kss.
I lap with atoma 400 before each stone.

I also am wondering how best to use the naniwa 12 laping stone.

Off the 12, I do 40 on linen and the same on leather. The first shave feels a bit aggressive, after that it gets smoother.

I wonder what the next step is for me? Id like to get through the stones faster and have a skin smarter edge.
I've experimented with the method balsa /diamond progression as well as the green veritas aluminum oxide compound so far.
Thanks.
Matt

 

[lightfoot]

I suspect to get a more skin-friendly edge off your setup you might consider doing a fairly low stroke count on both the 8K & 12K stones (especially if you plan on incorporating pastes/ compounds).

 

[Gamma]

There's really no need to strop between stones.
Should not be a need to lap a stone right before honing on it unless the stones surface wasn't flat, or loaded with swarf.
Shaving arm hair isn't much of an indictor of apex condition. FWIW though, the edge should be capable of doing that long before 4k.
Stropping is done best by feeling the edge 'come in', not counting laps.

A lack of smoothness after finish can be the result of many things and sometimes combinations of things. It is entirely possible that the lack of smooth started at the beginning and carried though.
Could also be that the honing was stellar up to and through 8k but way too much pressure on the 12k.
Could be that lapping the 12k before use left 12k slurry that caused some roughness.
Maybe your skin just thinks the 12k is harsh. Maybe more stropping is required.

Most sharpness and smoothness is started and developed through, roughly, 1k - 5k. If those efforts are on point, short work on 8k and 12k will yield a good edge.
But If the bevel-set was only 80% 'done', the edge may shave but it won't be ideal.

Basically, best face feel is derived from best bevel set and follow through.

 

[matt n]

Perfect that gives me lots of things to try! I will reread , hone and report back.

 

[Seelector]

@matt n my advice is to go back to your 2k and make sure the bevel is 100% set. Virtually ever harsh edge I’ve had off my Naniwa SS 12k has been because there were sections where the bevel wasn’t quite there. Putting in the time on your bevel setter pays off at the end.

 

[matt n]

So the 2K bevel set should shaving be shaving or catching arm hair well?

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Forget the hair test, they are too subjective. If it does not cut arm hair the first time, but does the second time is that a pass or fail?

A hair test, only tests a few microns of the edge, what about the rest of the edge?

Look straight down on the edge, if you see any shiny reflections, the bevels are not meeting, rolled or microchipped. The bevel is NOT fully set. Period.

Google (My Second Try at Honing) for good micrographs of what your bevels should look like at each stone in the progression. This post was the honers second razor he had honed.

If you do nothing else, make your bevels look like his.

Below is a photo looking straight down on the edge, first almost fully set, second photo fully meeting bevels, no shiny reflections.

Then make your 12k bevel look like the 12k bevel in the above post, Cake!

Almost fully set, no shiny reflections

Fully set, no reflections
.

 

[matt n]

thanks for the time and resources to check out. So no edge on reflection with Belarmo 10 and a moving light source; ill watch for it. In looking through that thread I also realized I've been slacking on 45° bevelling my stones, another thing to change so i'm winning there.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Also do not strop on polishing compound of unknow grit size. Pure Chrome Oxide is .50um, inexpensive and easy to find.

Polishing compound is aggressive to make a cutting edge on tool steel not for honing razors.

You can strop on good metal polish and quickly make a mirror bevel, but the shave off that edge is very rough.

A 12k Naniwia edge stropped on pure Chrome Oxide 20-30K is a very comfortable no B/S edge, but there are “better” more comfortable edge out there.

Sounds like you are throwing a lot of things at your edges. Slow down and get you honing perfected, then add variables. like paste, a big variable, because it all depends on your stropping ability. One step forward...
How does the razor shave off the diamond strop?

 

[buca3152]

Not sure if the newer naniwa 12k are different but I had one about ten years ago and that darn thing warped with wet and dry cycles. It was lapped flat. Once it dried out though it changed. Not a fan of the stone. But it delivered. Once I realized the warping though I sold it and bought suehiros. Those stones didn't give me any issues.

 

[lightfoot]

It may be a while before you hone enough to confirm a set bevel so you might consider doing the best you can at 2K and move on before spending excessive amounts of time in an area that might be an uncertainty for you.

I would rather see someone new rehone a few times through if the edge wasn’t quite ready as opposed to over doing it on the course stone(s) because you can run the risk of creating a frown (excessive wear in the middle) or other kinds of uneven hone wear. It may be hard to chase a set bevel if you’re not really sure what that means.

Stay conservative with your efforts with the expectation of repeating the progression as-needed maintaining even contact, a little forward torque, and controlled amounts of pressure throughout.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Yup, my 12k Naniwia, an old Pink one is retired, wearing plad shorts, black socks and old wing tips. A Suehiro 10k does everything the 12 did without the load up issue. Same or better finish.

 

[matt n]

Thanks.
My experience with the paste is first shave close and aggressive and mellowing out after a few shaves. I will try pure croox . I also bet I have some progress to make with stropping technique.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Kremer Pigments for pure Chrom Oxide powder #44200.

$12 for 100 grams/ ¼ pound almost, multi life-time amount for 4 people.

While you are at it try Iron Oxide #48100.

Or Hand America sticks, though have not seen Hand America for years. Mix couple drops of mineral Oil with a bit of powder and apply in 3 inch X’s, that’s all you need.

Experiment pasting on a piece of cardboard, inside of cereal box, if you like it buy cotton 2” strapping from any Fabric store, $5 a yard.

 

[Gamma]

Perfect that gives me lots of things to try! I will reread , hone and report back.

There really aren't 'lots of things to try'.
More like there are some things to not do.
Just keep it simple.

Set the bevel so it shaves.
Then progress and shave test each step be sure you are improving the edge.
Short work is all that should be needed on the 8k and 12k.
You should be able to get a reasonably smooth shave off a 12k SS. Not smooth like a Coticule though. At the end of the day it's still a 12k synth, so it will feel like one.

A good approach is to get the honing foundation sorted before adding abrasive compounds into the mix. Know what you are working with first before trying to add more variables. Pastes don't fix poorly honed edges. You need to bring the goods to the table for them to do their job correctly. They're not really add-water-and-stir.
Chromox or diamond slurry can leave smoother edges when following the 5k or maybe the 8k.
Good quality red or black FeOx can be way, way, way more skin friendly.

As I outlined earlier, harsh edges can come about many ways.
Start at the beginning, and work through methodically. Prove each step and the fail point will reveal itself.

 

[matt n]

Hay all thanks for the time!

Do I need to do some stabilizer corrections? The edge is not shaving body hair near the heel.

Matt

 

[matt n]

I've been through the stones 3 times now after all this feedback. Not laping the 2 and staying on it till it shaves body hair nicely is working.

With this razor, even though sharpie gets cleared in a normal stroke with slight roll, the toe is resistant to coming in. The center gets perfect before the toe and heel. I got it close by using a diagonal x bringing the toe close to the edge of the stone. Should this stroke be used throughout the progression?

For refreshing a edge should I continue to joint lightly on 8 k ss to prove I reset the edge to 2k flat?

The above razor felt better yesterday 1st shave.
I used a Illinois linen ,then firehouse before leather. I also massaged my face with pre shave cream before shaving. It is hard to only change one thing at a time!

Does Illinois strop linen behave like fine paste? I remember it is treated some kind of oxide.

 

[matt n]

Gama
I'll try next time with no Illinois strop.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Oh, yea.

You are honing on the stabilizers and they are keeping the heel half of the bevel off the stone.

(HEEL CORRECTION – REPROFILING Made easy), for a tutorial on how to reprofile the heel and move the heel corner well away from the stabilizer and allow the blade to sit flat on the stone.

Heel correction is a 5 minute repair. I correct the heels on most razors I get in for honing.

 

[Frank Shaves]

I assume you are talking about getting a smooth edge from a Naniwa 12,000 grit Super Stone - aka a Naniwa 12k.

You should be able to get a sharp, smooth edge from a Naniwa 12k, but it takes practice. You need to finish each grit using light to no pressure to minimize the scratches from the current stone.

While you are honing your skills (pardon the pun), it is not a crime to use diamond paste on balsa. You will not be arrested and imprisoned for using paste. The goal is to get good shaves while you journey to the top of the mountain.