First Arkansas and Couticule

[TheBeast]

Dear straight razor honers, forgive yet another noobie questions about natural stones.

Is there something I might experience that I am not ready for? For example, my 10mm superstones were warping all over the place and are loading super fast with swarf. Didnt expect that when I was buying them. Should I bite it and buy from USA, Dan's for example, pay import and taxes and have more piece of mind? Might these stones be "fake" or straight out just bad - too soft?

I am located in Europe and I have found a Netherland based company called "Skerper". They are selling Arkansas stones, "surgical black" at 100€ and "translucent" at 150€, 203 mm x 50 mm x 13 mm. It looks decent enough in pictures in its wooden box and a little base plate looknig thing. But they are saying stuff about these stones that doesnt sit right with me and that is they grit equivalent - surgical is 6k and trans is 10k. I consider it merely a business strategy, to give the majority of people buying it something they want to hear or say that the trans might be a touch harder/finer than the black, or might produce a higher polish. Anyway, I'll shoot them an email and ask everything I can.

In the meantime I want to buy one of them and based on my experience buy the other later. I am planing to lap it flat with SIC powder progression on the back of the Atoma and finnish with a wet/dry progression on the back of Atoma. Only up to 600 grit. Then take my best 12k SS or a 0.25 diamond edge and try to improve it in terms of keeping the ability to confidently cut through my hair while not irritating my skin. I read and heard that a black Arkansas is pretty nice to achieve something like this. I want to give it a try. I am getting a custom razor from France and its maker is putting a burnished black ark finnish to the edge. Fingers crossed I will like it, if not, then I will assume I can better tailor an edge off this stone for myself with enough practice.

I am leaning towards the "surgical black" as my first purchase. I like black. It's cheaper. Just makes sense to me. If I like it, I'll try the trans as well. Its a lifetime purchase. I will never have to ask which is better. I will know what I like more.

Link to the store and ark that I would like to get, if I can get some thumbs up from guys that have more knowledge than I do: Arkansas natural sharpening stone, Surgical Black Arkansas - https://www.skerper.com/en/pt/-arkansas-natural-sharpening-stone-surgical-black-arkansas.htm



As far as Couticules go, I would also like to try one. My options are pretty limited in terms of comfortable shopping in big internet stores. But here are the two choices I have been thinking about, a BBW and an "Ardenness" couticule, yellow.
Belgian Blue Whetstone 200 x 60 mm / 8" x 2,5" - https://www.knivesandtools.com/en/pt/-belgian-blue-whetstone-200-x-60-mm-8-x-2-5.htm

Ardennes Coticule Standard 150 x 50 mm / 6" x 2"

Natural polishing stone from the Belgian Ardennes. Use after sharpening to polish your knives sharp like a razor.

www.knivesandtools.com

Would you consider these stones as capable of producing a shave ready edge, and a decent place to start with natural finishers?



My situation:
-new to honing, learning very slow, don't like Naniwa SS 10mm, love Shapton Pro, Nani SS 12k - not a great shave for me but I am far from maxing it out, diamond paste on balsa probably too rough for me, 8k not sharp enough
-I need a sharp edge that can be used with confidence behind every stroke to cut my low laying hair, but a comfortable enough shave not to irritate my skin. A shavette will punish every imperfection during shaving and my SR edges have a way to go before they can be called usable and consistent.
-I understand, a finnisher isnt going to fix and edge that wasnt done to 100% before going to a finisher
-I want to get a natural finisher because I am building a little (very big) collection of honing tools to play with, I just enjoy it
-I understand, the gates of heaven will not open when I get a new stone, I will need to learn how to use it to its maximal capability
-I understand hard arks stones are slow and unforgiving

 

[Wid]

I would ask where the Arkansas stones were sourced from. If they can't give a good answer then I'd bite the bullet and get the stone from Dan's. There would be absolutely no doubt the stone was the real deal and an outstanding finisher.

As far as the coticule goes, email them and see if they have a La Veinette in stock. You won't regret that choice either.

Best of luck

 

[Legion]

Some people selling black “Arkansas “ online are not selling real novaculite stone, despite the pictures and what they label it. At least with translucent you can shine a light through it and be somewhat confident about what you bought.

If you buy a coticule from Ardennes it should be what they say it is. And the same for Dans on the Arks, I guess. There is something to be said about buying from the source. If it is cheaper from a reseller, you have to ask why.

 

[Stygo]

It could be because it was my first couple of times doing it, but I found getting an ark flat and chamfered to be a lot of work. It requires enough time that, at least for me, I'd want to make sure the stone was from a good source or this was already done.

In fact, the first time I did it and thought it was flat. it wasn't, I must have been rocking it a bit so I had worn a little hump into it - I didn't notice this until I kept seeing worse edges when I used the stone because I was honing as if it was "flat". I needed to go spend a bunch more time to correct that on the ark and chamfer edges more; mistakes are much slower to fix. Now I get amazing edges off it. Check with a straight edge in addition to grid.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Don’t know if that stone is any good, lots of fakes in the wild. Personally, I would only buy vintage. Buy a 6 -inch stone, lots of vintage 6- inch translucents out there for not much money. Plenty long enough to hone on and much easier/quicker to lap.

Flattening an 8 inch stone on the back of an Atoma is not going to work. You need 60 grit loose Silicone Carbide. Flatten on a steel cookie sheet on a flat piece of concrete floor, use your body weight. Stay on the 60 grit until you can remove a sharpie grid in less than 10 laps. You can tell when the grit stops cutting, add another teaspoon of 60 grit.

Then run up the grits to 600. From 600 you can switch to Wet & Dry. Once you are flat the grits polish much quicker. From 600 you can polish up to 2k or drop back to 600 easily with Wet & Dry. If you do both sides you have a dual grit stone.

The cookie sheet will also contain the swarf.

 

[TheBeast]

Don’t know if that stone is any good, lots of fakes in the wild. Personally, I would only buy vintage. Buy a 6 -inch stone, lots of vintage 6- inch translucents out there for not much money. Plenty long enough to hone on and much easier/quicker to lap.

Flattening an 8 inch stone on the back of an Atoma is not going to work. You need 60 grit loose Silicone Carbide. Flatten on a steel cookie sheet on a flat piece of concrete floor, use your body weight. Stay on the 60 grit until you can remove a sharpie grid in less than 10 laps. You can tell when the grit stops cutting, add another teaspoon of 60 grit.

Then run up the grits to 600. From 600 you can switch to Wet & Dry. Once you are flat the grits polish much quicker. From 600 you can polish up to 2k or drop back to 600 easily with Wet & Dry. If you do both sides you have a dual grit stone.

The cookie sheet will also contain the swarf.

Thank you for detailed instructions. I'm sure I'll find them helpful, the same as I did with strop oiling and rolling.

But all this will come after buying my first ark. I'm hesitant to buy, test and see because that way I would have to spend like a thousand bucks, which I don't want to... Buying vintage to me seems just the same, because the seller might not have any idea what is he selling, or could be flat out lying. I mean the best thing would be to buy something that has gone through the hands of someone that can tell me "yep, this one is legit" and try an edge that was honed on it... For someone who is intersted to get into this, it seems extremely chaotic and confusing...

 

[JPO]

Dear straight razor honers, forgive yet another noobie questions about natural stones.

Is there something I might experience that I am not ready for? For example, my 10mm superstones were warping all over the place and are loading super fast with swarf. Didnt expect that when I was buying them. Should I bite it and buy from USA, Dan's for example, pay import and taxes and have more piece of mind? Might these stones be "fake" or straight out just bad - too soft?

I am located in Europe and I have found a Netherland based company called "Skerper". They are selling Arkansas stones, "surgical black" at 100€ and "translucent" at 150€, 203 mm x 50 mm x 13 mm. It looks decent enough in pictures in its wooden box and a little base plate looknig thing. But they are saying stuff about these stones that doesnt sit right with me and that is they grit equivalent - surgical is 6k and trans is 10k. I consider it merely a business strategy, to give the majority of people buying it something they want to hear or say that the trans might be a touch harder/finer than the black, or might produce a higher polish. Anyway, I'll shoot them an email and ask everything I can.

In the meantime I want to buy one of them and based on my experience buy the other later. I am planing to lap it flat with SIC powder progression on the back of the Atoma and finnish with a wet/dry progression on the back of Atoma. Only up to 600 grit. Then take my best 12k SS or a 0.25 diamond edge and try to improve it in terms of keeping the ability to confidently cut through my hair while not irritating my skin. I read and heard that a black Arkansas is pretty nice to achieve something like this. I want to give it a try. I am getting a custom razor from France and its maker is putting a burnished black ark finnish to the edge. Fingers crossed I will like it, if not, then I will assume I can better tailor an edge off this stone for myself with enough practice.

I am leaning towards the "surgical black" as my first purchase. I like black. It's cheaper. Just makes sense to me. If I like it, I'll try the trans as well. Its a lifetime purchase. I will never have to ask which is better. I will know what I like more.

Link to the store and ark that I would like to get, if I can get some thumbs up from guys that have more knowledge than I do: Arkansas natural sharpening stone, Surgical Black Arkansas - https://www.skerper.com/en/pt/-arkansas-natural-sharpening-stone-surgical-black-arkansas.htm



As far as Couticules go, I would also like to try one. My options are pretty limited in terms of comfortable shopping in big internet stores. But here are the two choices I have been thinking about, a BBW and an "Ardenness" couticule, yellow.
Belgian Blue Whetstone 200 x 60 mm / 8" x 2,5" - https://www.knivesandtools.com/en/pt/-belgian-blue-whetstone-200-x-60-mm-8-x-2-5.htm

Ardennes Coticule Standard 150 x 50 mm / 6" x 2"

Natural polishing stone from the Belgian Ardennes. Use after sharpening to polish your knives sharp like a razor.

www.knivesandtools.com

Would you consider these stones as capable of producing a shave ready edge, and a decent place to start with natural finishers?



My situation:
-new to honing, learning very slow, don't like Naniwa SS 10mm, love Shapton Pro, Nani SS 12k - not a great shave for me but I am far from maxing it out, diamond paste on balsa probably too rough for me, 8k not sharp enough
-I need a sharp edge that can be used with confidence behind every stroke to cut my low laying hair, but a comfortable enough shave not to irritate my skin. A shavette will punish every imperfection during shaving and my SR edges have a way to go before they can be called usable and consistent.
-I understand, a finnisher isnt going to fix and edge that wasnt done to 100% before going to a finisher
-I want to get a natural finisher because I am building a little (very big) collection of honing tools to play with, I just enjoy it
-I understand, the gates of heaven will not open when I get a new stone, I will need to learn how to use it to its maximal capability
-I understand hard arks stones are slow and unforgiving

I got my Blue Black from Dictum (Germany). I am not an Arkansas expert, so take it for what it's worth.
This particular stone was in my opinion good.

Arkansas Honing/Polishing Stone, Black Translucent, 200 x 48 x 20 mm | Honing/Polishing stones (K4000-30.000) | Dictum

Arkansas Honing/Polishing Stone, Black Translucent, 200 x 48 x 20 mm | Honing/Polishing stones (K4000-30.000) | Dictum

www.dictum.com

If you want a coticule you can also try to get a Les Latneuses. The hybrid side will in my opinion get you in the Arkansas stone territory. They are expensive, but they can also cover the use of two stones.
You can get them from Ardennes (just send an email), or from 1stone in France. I have three, and i have no desire to get more Arkansas stones. Shipping and import taxes from the US makes the stones from Dan's too expensive form me.

For the price of a good Arkansas stone shipped to Europe you can get a nice JNAT from e.g. Japanese Natural Stones Toishi - https://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/
These stones have a wider range then Arkansas stones, and is much easier (and more fun) for me to use then Arkansas stones.
Arkansas stones fall more in the post finish category for me.


If you are getting an Arkansas stone and a coticule you can also get a La Veinette from Ardennes. Sometimes they are listed, or you can also sen an email to the mine.

A standard grade cotiule can also be good if you get it from e.g. Ardennes, and say it't for razor honing.

 

[TheBeast]

I got my Blue Black from Dictum (Germany). I am not an Arkansas expert, so take it for what it's worth.
This particular stone was in my opinion good.

Arkansas Honing/Polishing Stone, Black Translucent, 200 x 48 x 20 mm | Honing/Polishing stones (K4000-30.000) | Dictum

Arkansas Honing/Polishing Stone, Black Translucent, 200 x 48 x 20 mm | Honing/Polishing stones (K4000-30.000) | Dictum

www.dictum.com

If you want a coticule you can also try to get a Les Latneuses. The hybrid side will in my opinion get you in the Arkansas stone territory. They are expensive, but they can also cover the use of two stones.
You can get them from Ardennes (just send an email), or from 1stone in France. I have three, and i have no desire to get more Arkansas stones. Shipping and import taxes from the US makes the stones from Dan's too expensive form me.

For the price of a good Arkansas stone shipped to Europe you can get a nice JNAT from e.g. Japanese Natural Stones Toishi - https://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/
These stones have a wider range then an Arkansas stones, and is much easier (and more fun) for me to use then Arkansas stones.
Arkansas stones fall more in the post finish category for me.


If you are getting an Arkansas stone and a coticule you can also get a La Veinette from Ardennes. Sometimes they are listed, or you can also sen an email to the mine.

A standard grade cotiule can also be good if you get it from e.g. Ardennes, and say it't for razor honing.

Thanks! Very nice answer. I will rumage through these sources with a piece of mind someone actually uses them with success.

 

[Wid]

You could also look into a nice razor quality Charnley or Idwal. Should be fairly easy to acquire in Europe. I’d put them in the realm of a good Ark.

 

[Legion]

You could also look into a nice razor quality Charnley or Idwal. Should be fairly easy to acquire in Europe. I’d put them in the realm of a good Ark.

Or some nice Welsh slate, for that matter. Used with oil a lot of those are great finishers for not much money.

 

[Wid]

Or some nice Welsh slate, for that matter. Used with oil a lot of those are great finishers for not much money.

Fact! Slate and oil work very well together.

 

[Legion]

Fact! Slate and oil work very well together.

Is that lady in Scotland still selling hones?

Quality finishing stones are actually really easy to find, and there are so many options. When you are new the differences in the final result are probably going to be too subtle to notice, with most of them.

Turning yourself inside out trying to find one particular type is silly. Get what you can get and learn it well.

 

[Wid]

Is that lady in Scotland still selling hones?

Quality finishing stones are actually really easy to find, and there are so many options. When you are new the differences in the final result are probably going to be too subtle to notice, with most of them.

Turning yourself inside out trying to find one particular type is silly. Get what you can get and learn it well.

She is, has some nice ones up right now.

 

[Legion]

She is, has some nice ones up right now.

If I was in Europe I could do a lot worst than a nice TOS or WOA.

And they are arguably easier to learn and use than a coticule, and a heck of a lot easier to lap than an Ark.

 

[Eshebert]

My Black Ark took me 2 hours to lap fat, but it’s worth it. I got from 5k to Coticule to Ark and really enjoy my shaves. But my shaves right off the Coti are good too. I have both a modern select (they don’t track that mine anymore) and a Les Lat. the Les Lat is ok, but I really don’t like the feedback. It’s got a chalk board feel to it. It will put out a good edge, it’s just feels terrible.

Back to your question. If you’re going to buy an Ark, buy a Black Ark from Dan’s. I have a 2x8 and it’s a perfect size for me.

As for Coticules, buy a bunch and find the ones that work for you, and sell what you don’t like.

 

[JPO]

the Les Lat is ok, but I really don’t like the feedback. It’s got a chalk board feel to it. It will put out a good edge, it’s just feels terrible.

I have two Les Latneuses coticules. One feels just as you described, while the other one feels nice and creamy.

 

[TheBeast]

With all due respect,

I don't know why getting something that I decided to get would be silly. For me, wanting something but getting talked into or buying something else would be silly. I asked for ark in EU, I want an ark, I'll get an ark. I want a proven one, I am getting a proven one. I dont want to have to import it from US, I won't. Because I found a way. I dont want a slate, I don't want TOS or WOA, Charnley or Idwal.

I am sorry, but probably and arguably doesn't work for me. If it's hard work to lap, so be it. If I get a coti as well and it doesn't feel great while honing, so be it. I want to shave comfortably. I am willing to lap a stone for 2 hours for it, I am willing to use a stone that "just feels terrible" for it.

Store (no need for VAT or import, EU based): Passione per i Coltelli RH Preyda Bench Stone Surgical Black Arkans... - https://www.passionepericoltelli.com/en/stones/8823-rh-preyda-bench-stone-surgical-black-arkansas.html#

Info about it: RH Preyda Surgical Black | TomoNagura.Com | Keith V. Johnson - https://www.tomonagura.com/Natural-Razor-Hones/usa-whetstones/arkansas-stones/surgical-black/rh-preyda-surgical-black.html

Video about it (arond 26:55):

Long story short, hard stone, very similar to Dan's. RH Preyda, made in USA. Info based off someone's thoughts and opinions whom I consider trustworthy. I have learned just how much bull there is about natural stones. Some are clawing to put a grit number on them. Some are selling something they have no idea what it is, or worse, selling you something and making you pay like if it was something else. And most just like the talk which is incredibly confusing for a newcomer.

That's why I went with one source, which I find consistent, straightforward, bull free and trustworthy. Worked for me so far from synth progression choice, through lapping them to using them.

I'll give this stone a try, there is no certainty. Hopefully it will be hard and dense enough, and I can manage to prep the surface well enough and learn to use it well enough. By 'well enough' I mean to reach a simple goal - to give MYSELF, with MY razors a shave that I AM looking for. I guess worst case scenario will be that I don't like it - a bad 100 bucks investment which will burn a litte, but it's not the end of the world, FOR ME. No way around it if I don't have friends around that I can go to and try their stuff. Gotta buy, try and learn myself. AND decode all the misinformation, personal opinions and marketing strategies out there.

So thanks for honest intentions to help, I appreciate it! Funily enough, the biggest lesson was in between the lines. Hope no one gets mad.

 

[Wid]

Nice find, good price. You’ll love it I’m sure.

 

[TheBeast]

Another source, 20€ cheaper, amazon so should be no trouble. If I understand it correctly it comes from Boker, they also have it on their eshop website.

Amazon.de

And another German store selling the same stone:

RH Preyda Bench Stone Surgical Black Arkansas 6"

Artikeltyp: Schärfgerät Gesamtlänge: 15,2 cm Farbe: Schwarz Dieser klassischen Bankstein besitzt eine extrem hohe Dichte, er ist für das Finish besonders feiner Schneiden geeignet und poliert die Schneide...

www.bq-warehouse.de

 

[Eshebert]

Glad you found what you want. I meant to offense or ill intent. I also respect the hell out of Keith, I am an a big fan and his videos have taught me a lot. Especially the stuff about staying off message boards for advice. I could have swore your OP was phrased as a question, that’s why I gave my honest opinion. That’s all i it was, my opinion based off my hands on experience. “With all due respect”.

At the end of the day, the only good advice is exactly as Keith would say. Buy the darn stone and evaluate it yourself, with your hand, and judge the stone by its own merits. Don’t forget his most important advice, he says it just about every video. Quit asking people for advice on message boards or Facebook. Especially if you’re going to bark back when they are answering a question you asked.