First use of Mikawa Asano Nagura

[bernie01]

I just received a set of Mikawa Asano Nagura, and honed using them on my Nakayama Mizu Asagi. I'd be interested on feedback as I have no experience of what the edge should look like at each level. Photos below with comments. Your thoughts? The razor popped arm/leg hair very nicely so I'm expecting a nice shave this afternoon, will report on that later. Not sure if I'm supposed to strop after Jnat/Nagura, but I did (20 on cotton, 50 on roo leather).

The Nakayama is pretty small, about 120x70mm, rated 5/5. I was so excited about the new Nagura that I forgot it came with a Tomo Nagura and hence that didn't get used in the progression today. If this razor shaves well, I'll be converting a dozen or so razors to the Jnat and will incorporate the Tomo before the clear water step.
Shave report pending!

 

[Herrenberg]

Nice pictures! This looks promising. I am ignoring the Devil's spit that is waiting to plague you when you get further into the steel of this razor.

Are you torquing the razor as you hone? It looks as though there is a very thin line, right at the edge, that does not share the scratch pattern you've put on the rest of the bevel.

 

[bernie01]

Thanks @Herrenberg, yes I was torqueing to some extent especially on the Shapton synthetic and the Botan, but eased up with the finer stones. The blade was certainly undercutting very nicely. Now that you mention it, the Botan in particular has that thin line. I'll bear it in mind for the next razor in line. The Devils spit is of no concern to me as this is a $20 razor that is first in line for any new tricks, but doesn't get a lot of use after that. It's certainly not attractive though is it!

 

[bernie01]

I'm very, very, pleased to report that the shave was an enormous success; smooth and efficient with not a drop of blood spilt!
I even managed to traverse a wound from 2 days back without re-opening it. I only hope that the edge holds up for the next few shaves, and that I can repeat the process on other razors without difficulty. I must say, after todays progress, I'm very hopeful.

 

[lightfoot]

I use all the Nagura if the only synthetic I use is 2K-3K.

If I jump from 5K I skip Botan & Tenjyuo especially if I hit all the 5K tells (which I should).

Since I don’t have Koma I’ve never had a chance to move to it from 8K.

So 5K to Mejiro to Tomo is my ‘fast’ progression but I think the edges come out better using the full set of stones from a lower grit synthetic IME…

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Yes, nice clear micrographs. Just for reference it does look like the 8k edge could have been improved, hone the edge like the back of the bevel.

Also, when taking micrographs, try to photograph the same spot each time so you are comparing the same bit of steel for change/improvement. If you do not have an identifiable mark on the bevel, mark a line from edge to spine with a sharpie and photograph the same spot each time.

That the razor has Cell Rot could affect the finished edge and fail prematurely and the stones or technique get blamed. Cell rot will often attack the thinnest steel first, the edge, so you may need to remove a bit of the edge to get to solid steel. It may be what we see in the 8k photo.

The Mejiro bevel and edge looks the best to me, not all stones can finish on water. Many believe that most Mejiro, are finer/finish better than Koma, they are after all natural stones. My Mejiro finish/shave better than Koma.

You can also try finishing on thin Diamond plate slurry and finishing on a misty Mejiro or tomo slurry. Ensure that all your nagura are smoothed and have rounded corners to prevent flaking and chipping, and a quick soak in clean water can change your nagura slurry considerably.

Finishing on Diamond slurry, going from a 1k to finish, will tell you a lot about your base stone.

From a clean 8k bevel and edge I often go to Tenjo and finish on thin tomo slurry. You will need to experiment to find the finish and edge that works for you with the stones you have.

Out of curiosity, how difficult did you find honing on Jnats with nagura. In many ways I believe Jnats are much easier for new honers than most naturals to finish.

Nice work and write up.

 

[Gamma]

I've never shaved with a photo so, while the photos are interesting I try to base edge-use-related comments on actual use.
Generally speaking, if the shave was good then the edge was good. If the edge stays good then the hone was good.
What Karen thinks about it is irrelevant.

A lot of perfect looking bevels shave terribly. Some awful looking bevels shave very well. Lighting hides a lot and it can make things look worse too.
Seems you liked the shave. Good deal. Keep doing what you're doing. If you think there is room, or even a need, for improvement, then go for it based on your own evaluation.

It's a good idea to strop after honing... regardless of the honing system.

Choice of Nagura for a progression is not a formula or a recipe. Those decisions are best made when based on felt observations. The intuition comes with doing and feeling, not looking at it and talking about it or a paint by numbers plan.

Different nagura behave differently in different hands, on different base stones, and with different steels. So in one home any particular progression might leave deep haze and tomorrow with a different approach, or in someone else's hands they might leave a mirrored surface. There can be many other differences also. A lot depends on how the Nagura were used, exactly. How much slurry, how much pressure, how was the pressure used, how thick was the slurry, was there more than one application of slurry per stage... and so on.

Using any one particular chosen set is more about personal judgement and changing approach based on feel than anything else. Self-evaluating the progress is really the only way to achieve proficiency with any Nagura set. Learn to feel what the stone and steel are telling you while you are honing.

One of my personal Nagura progressions, when following synths, regardless of jump point, is to use all 4 Nagura with heavy use of Botan to completely wipe the fingerprint left by the synths. I don't do it every single time I hone, and it does not need to be done that way for me to shave; it's just one method I use that makes me happy. I would not tell someone they must do that but I may explain it when someone is actually interested. In the course of progression decisions, I will sometimes double up on, or remove or add a Nagura when I feel it's a good idea to do so, or I want to experiment to see what something will or will not do. I don't subscribe to one set of rules, because, well, it's a foolish way to do things. I keep things loose and hone on gut instinct most of the time. Best thing to do is to try stuff to see what works best, and keep doing that while getting away from the stuff that doesn't work so well.

 

[Empire straights]

I'm very, very, pleased to report that the shave was an enormous success; smooth and efficient with not a drop of blood spilt!
I even managed to traverse a wound from 2 days back without re-opening it. I only hope that the edge holds up for the next few shaves, and that I can repeat the process on other razors without difficulty. I must say, after todays progress, I'm very hopeful.

You can probably just do water touch ups every couple shaves and you'd be set.

 

[Mr Kooby Shemayrew]

I’d recommend to experiment with adding the tomo. I have a koma and a good tomo is significantly finer than it.

I also recommend finishing on slurry, thin or thick, and see how that compares to finishing on just water. For me, finishing on running water gives a very sharp edge, but finishing on slurry feels a little smoother. (I’ve been meaning to experiment with sharpening on running water first to get the sharpness then add slurry to boost the smoothness. Next time.)

I need to get a good botan…..

 

[bernie01]

Out of curiosity, how difficult did you find honing on Jnats with nagura. In many ways I believe Jnats are much easier for new honers than most naturals to finish.

I would agree, although technique also has to be learnt to make either way effective.

Thank you to all that have replied with such informative and useful feedback; much appreciated! It seems that the possibilities with different slurries, jump points, nagura and technique are many and varied. I have a dozen or so razors to play with, so I'll work my way up from the least precious and see what transpires.

 

[Gamma]

Can't really compare Jnats to other natural systems in any sort of sensible way.
No other system incorporates 4 different slurry stones where each one comes with its own set of variables.

Factually, every system out there comes with its fair and equal share of users struggling with it.
No one system is by law easier or harder to learn than another, not in a global sense. It's user dependent thing.
Some people gravitate to one system, others do not get that system at all. Even synths, that are numbered, confuse some people to no end. Some people are always trying to put labels on things, or put people in groups, polarize opinions, or form some sort of competition when none exists. It's misleading, and pointless.

Learning any system with one razor at a time can help focus attention and speed learning. Or maybe one Solingen and one Sheffield, or one Wedge and one full hollow. I usually tell people looking for direction to work with one razor in the beginning though. It's easier to isolate and understand subtle changes in the progression, feedback, and results that way. Of course it is possible to learn with a dozen razors or more, all at once too. But if you think about what it is we are trying to understand, it can be very helpful to limit variables in the beginning.
Me, now, been doing this for a long minute - when learning a new stone, I only use 1-2 razors and one set of Nagura. I use that one Nagura set for all new stones when starting off and I only bring in alternate sets once I have a handle on things.

Like Mantic59 used to tell us to practice "beard reduction" as a big component when learning wet shaving, I see "Variable Reduction" as a main component in learning honing..

 

[Steve56]

Out of curiosity, how difficult did you find honing on Jnats with nagura. In many ways I believe Jnats are much easier for new honers than most naturals to finish.

I would agree, provided that you have a fine-grained finisher.

 

[Herrenberg]

I would agree, provided that you have a fine-grained finisher.

And one that is not too hard. It's easy to be drawn in to those "5+++ hardness!!! Perfect razor finisher!" stones as a newb, but they are a minefield for the inexperienced. My first great JNAT edges were on one of those wonderful stones that feels a bunch softer than it is when you hone on it. The nasty-hard ones do produce great edges though, once you are ready for them.

 

[Steve56]

My first great JNAT edges were on one of those wonderful stones that feels a bunch softer than it is when you hone on it.

It’s a spectrum, softer stones need more ‘technique’ to equal the edges off harder stones, but it can be done and should be done. Getting the best out of hard and soft JNats is what you’re learning.

I have a lot of stones, but the type that appeals to me for regular use is a stone that finishes on thin slurry without having to do ‘finesse’ finishing. Wispy/thin slurry, wham bam thank you ma’am, I’m done.

 

[Herrenberg]

It’s a spectrum, softer stones need more ‘technique’ to equal the edges off harder stones, but it can be done and should be done. Getting the best out of hard and soft JNats is what you’re learning.

I have a lot of stones, but the type that appeals to me for regular use is a stone that finishes on thin slurry without having to do ‘finesse’ finishing. Wispy/thin slurry, wham bam thank you ma’am, I’m done.

These are good arguments, very good. Against them, I would set two countervailing points.

First, newbies need some successes, because early honing can feel very meandering. The Method is one plan that delivers those successes. I have blades that I was getting great shaves from using The Method, with the usual caveat about comfort. When I looked back at those blades after getting a handle on honing, I was shocked. The bevels were in terrible shape. But all those polishing strokes on soft balsa with diamonds in it had smoothed everything out, and maybe added some micro-convexity, and created a very nice shaving razor before my skills could create such a thing on just stones.

Second, for me, the same applied to JNats. My first successes came, not with my hardest and most unforgiving stones, nor my softest, but with stones that were undeniably hard, to judge by how difficult it was to raise slurry on them, and by the keen edges they produced, and yet felt easy and creamy when honing. I've heard that this quality is especially to be found in good Nakayama and Shobudani stones, and with the exception of one stone of unknown origin (though it came from a Japanese barber shop, where it saw long use), that is where I found it. I am successful with a much wider assortment now, some of which produce more impressively keen edges, but I still find those dual nature, hard-but soft stones very easy to reach for.

 

[Gamma]

Harder and softer, LV 5 vs LV 4 - etc, those are qualities that don't totally define any stone.
Softer stones that are more capable of making a finer edge than a particular harder stone exist.
Not all harder stones are gold. Some are tool grade, or just junk.
Some softer stones are quite nice, but not all of them are.
Objectively, a top class harder stone will have a greater capability of making a finer edge than a softer stone that is also top class. It's baked into the mechanics like that.

There once was a person who bought used woodworkers' stones in open air markets, like a flea market. By nature of their source, they were usually a good bit softer. And he would endlessly promote their 'superiority'. Mostly, it was a means to sell the bulk of his inventory.

The simple fact is, the good quality harder stone is more capable of breaking down the slurry further without releasing too much fresh particulate into the mix. So the slurry gets progressively finer than is possible on a softer stone.
Softer stones are more prone to pumping larger particles into the slurry more easily.
If you have good technique the liabilities can be somewhat mitigated but that same technique used with a harder stone takes the edge even further.
I've had many many softer stones that I shaved well off of. But I have had zero softer stones that can rival the finished results from my favored harder Jnats. That's just the way it is. It's not merchandising, just facts.

Best thing to do is to evaluate a stone on it's own merits, but on all of its merits.
The HGAL system was/is flawed as heck but that is where the LV5+++ stuff comes from. FWIW, it was 4 points of concern, not just hardness. The top rank in each class was 5, and I think a single plus sign is legit. I don't think a multitude of plus signs is kosher. Anyway, in theory, if you had a 5/5/5/5 stone you had a supreme offering. The grading is too subjective and there is no standardization, so it's difficult to rely on even before factoring in the myriad of clueless and sometimes nefarious personalities misusing the system.
Even so, the system is known, and what is considered to be top shelf is 5/5/5/5, not 4/4/4/4. or even 4/5/5/5, or whatever.

It's a good idea to not make broad sweeping statements about what's best for who. An awful lot of new users do in fact get the hardest stones right away, and are supremely happy with the result. I was one of those people. My first Jnat was a super hard Kiita Kan Koppa from a known seller who said it was the best thing since sliced bread for honing razors. He knew what the real deal was, and the super hard rock was the ticket.
Since then, a huge number (hundreds) of new users I've worked with along the way also got it fast. In fact, over 10-12 years, I haven't run into anyone who, after competent instruction and following directions, had difficulties with good quality harder stones.
This whole 'newbs need this/that type of stone' thing is silly. What anyone starting out really needs is good direction from someone that actually knows what they're talking about, lives it, and doesn't make up stories to suit their profit line, ego, or personal agendas. And they need to follow that direction.

 

[Steve56]

Pretty much agree, but if you’re buying, each JNat is likely different, sometimes quite a lot.

Hardness and fineness are for the most part linked - harder = acts finer. Softer = acts coarser. This is a decent buying strategy, but it is a generality and not always true for individual JNats. You can also get a softer JNat to act finer with clear water finishing strokes, like a coticule.

You can have hard JNats that are not as fine as soft stones. By fine, I mean that a finer stone makes a superior shaving edge. You can also have soft stones that are extremely fine and produce an edge equal to harder stones. These softer stones of fine grit are relatively uncommon these days, they’ve been used up over time, literally loved to death. After 10 years+ of collecting JNats, I have exactly one that I’d really put at the top of this category. It slurries in seconds and produces a razor edge second to none on thin slurry, no clear water strokes needed.

You can usually get a good hard stone cheap and slurry it with a diamond plate/nagura, and you’re at 95%+ of nirvana. JNats, like all other hardware, watches, cars, fountain pens, knives, motorcycles, the last 5% of performance and appearance come dear.

 

[Empire straights]

And one that is not too hard. It's easy to be drawn in to those "5+++ hardness!!! Perfect razor finisher!" stones as a newb, but they are a minefield for the inexperienced. My first great JNAT edges were on one of those wonderful stones that feels a bunch softer than it is when you hone on it. The nasty-hard ones do produce great edges though, once you are ready for them.

I really like my 4.0lvl Nakayama iromono very than my 5.0lvl Nakayama Kiita(it blushed when I lapped it). I agree that they are very easy to use if you're just using the finishing stone with a light tomo nagura slurry or plain water. I think they were easier to learn(even the harder one) than a thuringian to me even though they follow the same process. If put a good finishing jnat in the same category as a fine Tam O'shanter for ease of learning for a newbie and I'd put a Tam at the top of the list. I'd recommend one of those white Tam sticks that were going for insanely cheap not to terribly long ago as the best finisher for a person new to putting an actual razors edge on a cutting tool, not just razors. They are my favorite stones to finish knives on even though coticules are my favorite general stones. I have a decent variety of Tam O's in different forms and fineness' and they are one of the stones I don't sell. I tried to sell a little stick that has multiple twins but I over priced it so it e wouldn't sell because I want to give it to my son one day soon. My bluish 5" Tam slipstone and my Tam/ dalmore combo(which I almost sold once but never again) are probably my favorites. My jnats were fairly cheap and all came from the same place, save my koma nagura, and in my opinion they are fantastic stones(compared to many other world class stones I own/ have used). I was very scared to get into jnats because I knew it wasn't 1 stone and they can go for insane prices. I never paid more than $100 for 2 base stones or once I got a base stone and 5"x1" awatanii(?) Nagura for $100 but it's a bench stone imo(6.5"x2.5",I could cut that into 5 stones and they'd still be big in my eyes) and it's the iromono mentioned above. I did pay more than that for 2 of my Mikawa naguras from there(Tenjyo and Mejiro) and the koma but it wasn't from there. The Mejiro and my tomo nagura that's a little harder than the base stone would have been enough. Honestly, I think I could probably get the same effect as the progression with varying thicknesses of diamond plate slurry(like a coticule) but i haven't tried i don't use my jnats much. The only benefit of the Mikawa, to me, is for aesthetic purposes on knife jobs I do. Still haven't tapped into the sushi chef market around here. Maybe this winter.

 

[JPO]

These softer stones of fine grit are relatively uncommon these days, they’ve been used up over time, literally loved to death.

I have one that was sold quite cheap from JNS. It was probably sold based on the quality of one side of the stone, which was not the best.
I then lapped the back side of the stone. It took allot of time. However, this side proved to be much better. I am not sure why the stone was prepared this way. It can can be used with just water, or with just a little slurry. It can improve most high grit synthetic edges noticeably.
The price of these full sized stones have gone up like crazy lately.

When i started honing razors i only had a Shoubudani jnat, a set of naguras and a coticule. I should have stopped there since i do not do any restoration work.
I did not know i needed anything else before the internet told me i needed a connon to kill a fly At least i have enough stones to keep my knifes going. Wait. I use a coticule for most of that too

 

[Gamma]

Softer stones with fine grit only get but so fine. Those stones are readily available but they are not in high demand. Harder finer stones were always more expensive and always in greater demand. The most expensive Kiita were always the hardest Kiita. Softer Kiita were always more common and less expensive. Very hard Kiita were and still are very uncommon.

Same most patterns. Collectors buy stones based on visual aesthetics, and that creates some confusion. If you remember the big giant Karasu on that auction site that was listed for $20k, it sold once for $7k but the deal crashed because the stone was muddy and gritty.

Someone may prefer a softer stone, that's another thing. Maybe they prefer it because it costs less. Maybe they just like the feel better. That doesn't change stone capabilities though. It's just preference. Some people prefer Dorko 301 over Feathers, the latter being sharper but the Dorco might be more comfortable. Choice is what it is but the laws of physics still apply. If the desired outcome is met for a user, that's all that matters. It doesn't change facts though. It's like someone swearing that Black Arks are better than Trans Arks, the opinion is based on preference, not scientific fact.

Besides hardness, the other qualities factor in heavily, so if there is a harder stone that is less dense, it won't be looked at the same way. Everything revolves around each specific stone's full set of characteristics. Someone can have a softer stone and a harder stone, and prefer the softer stone. In that scenario, maybe the harder stone is lower quality or maybe the user's skills aren't able to get the max out of the harder stone... maybe their nagura are not great. Lots of things can factor into the equation.

Most people here probably don't remember the cheap stones stamped JyunshoHonyama Maybe 5x4", thin cut. And simultneously there were fake super hard Oozuku for a few $$ more. A lot of people had a lot of trouble with those Oozuku and way less issues with the Jyunshohonyama. Reason being, the softer stone was a useable stone and the Oozkus were, quite often, door stop material. In that scenario, the softer Jyunshohonyama stone was a better choice and people would prefer them. That doesn't mean a softer stone is better than a harder one though. It just means that a higher quality softer stone can be a better choice than a lower quality harder one.

Bottom line though, a high-quality harder stone is going to provide a more complete breakdown of slurry from all Nagura. A softer stone is just not capable of the same physical actions. It pushes too much fresh particulate into the slurry, and does not / can not provide the same refinement levels. The harder higher quality stones are harder and considered finer for many of the same reasons that Translucent Arkansas stones are considered to be 'finer' than a soft Ark.

It's similar to using a mortar and pestle to grind spices. They're made of marble or granite or metal so you can grind a fine powder without getting parts of the tools in the mix, or embedding particles into the mortar's surface.

Again though, it's about each specific stone's capabilities, not just hardness in and of itself. There are junk harder stones, there are useless softer stones. Some stones are hard-enough and fine enough to make someone happy enough and there are other users, like myself, that want max breakdown and do not want to let one shred of refinement capability to be missed.

All of the harder softer argument nonsense started way back when one vendor put 'Experts only" on the listings for the LV 5+++ stones he listed, and then the vendor with the softer stones went to war over it because it supposedly hurt his sales. What most people didn't realize was that there a long-running war between them on another platform. If one of them said the sky was blue, the other said it wasn't. And then dog piling, bandwagoning and hive mentality took off.

In Japan, you go to a shop and you try the stone and if you like it you buy it. Liking it is based on results and 'that sharpening feeling' which is going to be partly based on sharpening technique. When all is equal, the harder stone is always going to be more capable of breaking down refinement. But, things are, quite often, not equal - and different people have different goals and techniques.