Share your honing experiment. What did you learn?

[JPO]

Right now I am in a slump. For some reason the last inch and a half of my blades to the toe are not keen. Heel to middle are exceptional. It’s driving me nuts and must be a torque issue?? No clue and it is causing me tremendous frustration.

I changed something and I don’t know what.

I have had the same issues a few times. In my case I was working on a slightly softer jnat (lv 4 to 4.5). I set the edge back because I used a little too much torque on the blade. I was guiding the toe with my left hand. I don't get this problem on much harder stones.
You might also have lifted the spine for a brief moment.

 

[cugel]

I often guide with my other hand unless holding the stone. Too much pressure could be the culprit.

Thanks for your suggestions, much appreciated.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

“Right now I am in a slump. For some reason the last inch and a half of my blades to the toe are not keen. Heel to middle are exceptional. It’s driving me nuts and must be a torque issue?? No clue and it is causing me tremendous frustration.

I changed something and I don’t know what.



Post a photo of the razor for better advice and eliminating the razor as the issue.

 

[JPO]

For me with my favorite Jnat base stone finishers, I get keener, smoother shaving edges with a few, exhaustively tested Tomo Nagura over Asano nagura. Change the Koma or Mejiro and all that can change.

That is something I have been looking for. These hard stones take allot of time to raise a slurry on with my tomo naguras and base stones. My tomos are either too soft or to hard.

 

[TexNat]

A few times using my translucent or black Ark for too long resulted in thinning the edge to a paper thin layer of metal that becomes unstable and jagged.

One method I carried over from knife sharpening is the use of a microbevel to correct that problem.

Add a layer of tape, of if already using tape add another layer of tape.

Then very lightly use another 20 or so passes and then check it under the microscope. That has saved a few edges.

If that does not correct the problem, then remove the extra layer of tape, drop back to a coarser stone to clean it off and crisp up the bevel, and then move back up in the progression.

 

[Calou]

That is something I have been looking for. These hard stones take allot of time to raise a slurry on with my tomo naguras and base stones. My tomos are either too soft or to hard.

what problems do you encounter with too soft tomo?

 

[jason12768]

“Right now I am in a slump. For some reason the last inch and a half of my blades to the toe are not keen. Heel to middle are exceptional. It’s driving me nuts and must be a torque issue?? No clue and it is causing me tremendous frustration.

I changed something and I don’t know what.



Post a photo of the razor for better advice and eliminating the razor as the issue.

He probably needs a swaying or rolling x-stroke.
Often on razors the toe and/or heel do not fully contact the stone and are not being worked on enough compared to the middle.
Many razors I have honed have this problem.

One things that usually helps is either hone on a very narrow hone, or focus on only using the outer inch of your stone you hone on. Use a marker and colour in the entire edge of your razor, do some strokes and see where it removes and doesn't remove metal and adjust your honing stroke accordingly. These are the trickier razors to hone, many razors are also not perfectly symmetricly gound (sp?). I mostly see this on older heavier grinds. They can take some time, but he'll get there!

 

[JPO]

what problems do you encounter with too soft tomo?

Some of the soft tomos, if used on a really hard stone seem to polish the stone surface too much. This makes the base stone almost ineffective. The result is that almost all the cutting is from the slurry. It does create a smooth edge. However, there is more slurry dulling at the apex.
The soft nagura is also less effective at rubbing up the base stone surface compared to some better matched harder tomos.
I like a crisp jnat edge, which I don't get if the slurry is worked this way.
This is just my personal preference.

 

[Mr Kooby Shemayrew]

Keep in mind that all natural Nagura are natural stones and can/ will all perform differently. Add to that the base stone is natural and a large variable.

The goal of Nagura is to provide a mix of base and nagura slurry, a synergy of slurry. The same nagura may perform very differently with a different base stone.

Mikawa nagura are not grit rated, they are layer identified and graded for appearance. It is not uncommon for different layers to perform differently than what some may expect, e.g., Koma is finer than Mejiro. Some believe that Mejiro is finer than Koma and some may be.

Add to all that, part of the benefit of Nagura is to refine/smooth the stone face. Most any nagura will leave a smoother face than any diamond plate. Depending on the hardness of the stone, it can take some time/laps to smooth a diamond lapped stone face by honing on slurry, depending on the stone.

The only way to figure out all these variables is to test on the base stone. Switching to another base stone can reveal different results.

So, it is not possible for a vendor to tailor a “set” of nagura that will work like a synthetic stone with predictable results. He can sometimes tailor an Asano nagura or tomo to a particular stone if he has both nagura and base stone in hand.

And then there is technique, slurry thickness, pressure, number of laps and honer experience. You must test and find the combination that works best with your base stone and technique.

For me with my favorite Jnat base stone finishers, I get keener, smoother shaving edges with a few, exhaustively tested Tomo Nagura over Asano nagura. Change the Koma or Mejiro and all that can change.

Now you want to talk about a rabbit hole, start chasing Asano nagura for fineness, then tomo…

I have a nice koma nagura (so sample size of 1) and probably 8 or 10 varieties of tomo. The tomos are all about twice as fine / half the grit particle size of the koma so there is a very noticeable change in bevel refinement between these two.

The koma has a speed that the tomos do not have and it easily picks up where a 4K naniwa leaves off. The koma also has a noticeable breakdown in particle size which further extends its range. It is not as fine as the base stone and this works well for finishing something like a sushi knife. The tiny amount of bite left is perfect where as a razor hone alone is too fine. (I do want to get a botan someday for a little more range and bite.)

The tomos on the other hand do not seem to breakdown / reduce in particle size to nearly the extent that the koma is capable of. Not an issue as the tomo is the final step.

Personally I don’t classify the koma as a finisher. I do however feel the koma and tomo compliment each other and the combo of the two with a quality base stone has amazing capabilities.

 

[Steve56]

Right now I am in a slump. For some reason the last inch and a half of my blades to the toe are not keen. Heel to middle are exceptional. It’s driving me nuts and must be a torque issue?? No clue and it is causing me tremendous frustration.

I changed something and I don’t know what.

You might try section honing, IOW, honing different sections of the edge separately. So try just honing the front half of the blade by itself and see if that improves the poor section. If it does, you have your answer.

 

[cugel]

You might try section honing, IOW, honing different sections of the edge separately. So try just honing the front half of the blade by itself and see if that improves the poor section. If it does, you have your answer.

After carefully watching my strokes, I am getting quite sloppy and lifting the heel first when I change directions. Putting more pressure on the toe when I do this I imagine. Things are improving but not quite there. Thanks!

 

[JPO]

After carefully watching my strokes, I am getting quite sloppy and lifting the heel first when I change directions. Putting more pressure on the toe when I do this I imagine. Things are improving but not quite there. Thanks!

It is probably a common mistake. I probably still do it from time to time if I don't pay attention to my technique.

 

[Steve56]

YW, good honing!

 

[Empire straights]

I have a nice koma nagura (so sample size of 1) and probably 8 or 10 varieties of tomo. The tomos are all about twice as fine / half the grit particle size of the koma so there is a very noticeable change in bevel refinement between these two.

The koma has a speed that the tomos do not have and it easily picks up where a 4K naniwa leaves off. The koma also has a noticeable breakdown in particle size which further extends its range. It is not as fine as the base stone and this works well for finishing something like a sushi knife. The tiny amount of bite left is perfect where as a razor hone alone is too fine. (I do want to get a botan someday for a little more range and bite.)

The tomos on the other hand do not seem to breakdown / reduce in particle size to nearly the extent that the koma is capable of. Not an issue as the tomo is the final step.

Personally I don’t classify the koma as a finisher. I do however feel the koma and tomo compliment each other and the combo of the two with a quality base stone has amazing capabilities.

I like to do about 3-5 laps on my Botan after I finished on plain water on the base stone(ozuku asagi) for knives. Both kitchen and work knives. I understand this same concept was used traditionally in Japan for Katana but I'm not will versed in this history. It absolutly puts teeth back on a blade. The way I explain it to the chefs I do work for is that the blade is finished to a razor, then you cut in the teeth. This makes a semi micro serrated blade. The teeth grab most everything and at the bottom of the serrations is a razor blade. It's the best illustration I've been able to think of. I've really been liking jnat edge on my work knives lately.

 

[Mr Kooby Shemayrew]

I like to do about 3-5 laps on my Botan after I finished on plain water on the base stone(ozuku asagi) for knives. Both kitchen and work knives. I understand this same concept was used traditionally in Japan for Katana but I'm not will versed in this history. It absolutly puts teeth back on a blade. The way I explain it to the chefs I do work for is that the blade is finished to a razor, then you cut in the teeth. This makes a semi micro serrated blade. The teeth grab most everything and at the bottom of the serrations is a razor blade. It's the best illustration I've been able to think of. I've really been liking jnat edge on my work knives lately.

Yeah, this is going to make me itch for a botan….

Are you a chef?

 

[Frank Shaves]

After a scratch pattern is established on both sides of the razor, in our case as above, adding more strokes leads to deformation in the form of a burr or feather edge. There is an article in my book "Japanese Sharpening Stone Heaven-Narutaki Toishiyama" that explains the deformation in more detail.

Thanks for letting us know about your book and congrats on completing it! Looks like it was published in May.

 

[JPO]

This is a response to @papi in a previous thread, but I think it fits better here.
This is just to show how you can get a good edge with a simple setup. No magnification is needed to do this. Using a finer stone stone then 6k makes it easier.
Equipment;
Shapton gs 6k, TI pasted denim, 0.1 micron cbn on leather.

The razor is honed on the 6k ending with enough edge trailing strokes to raise a visible burr.

The burr is removed by stropping on a hanging denim strop loaded with TI white paste. This also creates a little convexity that will reduce the tendancy for the cbn to create a new burr.

This is the final edge after the hard backed cbn on leather.

Some of the 6k striations are still visible a distance behind the edge. This will not affect the shave.

So @papi, if you are after a pasted type of edge, and if you don't want to buy a higher grit finisher then your 12k pro stone, this might be worth exploring.
It will probably be easier coming off a 8k or 12k. The resulting edge will however be quite similar in feel.

I did over 50 laps on the cbn, just to see if I would run into issues. No changes was seen when compared to the first inspection after 15 laps.
The combination of a hanging soft strop with a harder flat leather makes a difference.

 

[JPO]

I just had a shave with this razor. The edge was smooth and more then sharp enough.
I actually like these edges more then if I use a paste/compound after a higher grit synthetic stone.

This process is so simple that anyone should be able to do it with a minimal amount of equipment and effort.

 

[lightfoot]

I just had a shave with this razor. The edge was smooth and more then sharp enough.
I actually like these edges more then if I use a paste/compound after a higher grit synthetic stone.

This process is so simple that anyone should be able to do it with a minimal amount of equipment and effort.

Moving to compounds after 5K-6K seems to be an agreed upon approach. I’ll move from 8K myself but that’s as high as I’ll go…

I don’t understand the science necessarily but I imagine that it has to do with how efficacious the compounds are and the fact that you only need to contact the cutting edge itself which shortens the honing time.

 

[JPO]

Moving to compounds after 5K-6K seems to be an agreed upon approach. I’ll move from 8K myself but that’s as high as I’ll go…

I don’t understand the science necessarily but I imagine that it has to do with how efficacious the compounds are and the fact that you only need to contact the cutting edge itself which shortens the honing time.

With this particular method the edge trailing strokes is important, especially if you don't go higher in grit then 6k.
The edge trailing strokes extends the edge a little. As you strop on a pasted fabric strop you are able to remove any false edge, and you are left with a clean edge. If you only use a leather strop you will just extend the burr or create one.
The combination of a fabric strop and a leather strop is also important.
The convexity created by the fabric allows you to use your leather loaded with cbn or diamond paste without getting a harsh edge.
I did over 50 laps on the cbn. I would not be able to do that if I skipped the fabric step without creating a harsh edge.
The burr created with edge trailing strokes is visible with the naked eye. It is a really foolproof way to hone a razor.
Adding something like an 8k stone makes it even easier. I have not been able to tell the difference if I do this after a 6k or an 8k stone.