Share your honing experiment. What did you learn?

[JPO]

I designed The Ax Method to be used on on any double bevel tools, knives or razors. It was after I bought my microscope (315x) in 2010 that I could visually monitor the progress of each stroke or set of strokes that I realized that there is a sweet spot where-when each stone provided it's unique finger print/scratch pattern on the steel blade, and that going beyond that finished stage, where the scratch extends from the base of the bevel to the cutting edge with more and more and more strokes, did not make a blade sharper and sharper and sharper.

After a scratch pattern is established on both sides of the razor, in our case as above, adding more strokes leads to deformation in the form of a burr or feather edge. There is an article in my book "Japanese Sharpening Stone Heaven-Narutaki Toishiyama" that explains the deformation in more detail.


Finding through observation, perfect pairings with stone to steel can be rewarding. There are so many types of steel on the market, it can save a lot of time discovering how many strokes it takes to abrade certain steels with certain stones. Counting strokes is like building a handicap in golf, knowing what you limits are can take a lot of the agony and money off the table. For me to play Pebble Beach would be a waste of money, Silverado is doable. I am in my early 70s now, why waste time?

Alx

Your youtube videos have been educational.
Does it make a difference in the results if you did the same number of strokes on each side, but flipped the blade over on each pass?
I have found the jump from 1k to dmt slurry a little challenging. I can remove the striations, but the apex still needs allot more refinement. Starting with a 2k, or even a 3k seems to work better.
Going from a 6k to a nagura progression, or a light dmt slurry have been the sweet spot for me.

 

[Christian1212]

Some photos of the shobudani while getting lapped. Seems like the wear was pretty even with the middle getting the most use. After the last picture the rest of the marks came off at mostly the same time. Made another grid then lapped, however that grid came off quickly.

 

[lightfoot]

Well I finally have an initial impression of the Honing process I had posted earlier in the thread. I was really happy with the shave and the post shave. Using five stages of slurry that are a little thinner each time kind of simulates using five different stones in a progression. The initial impression definitely makes me want to continue to explore this process more in depth over time. I get the impression that if this is well-handled that a tomo may or may not be needed at least with this particular Base stone…

 

[JPO]

Well I finally have an initial impression of the Honing process I had posted earlier in the thread. I was really happy with the shave and the post shave. Using five stages of slurry that are a little thinner each time kind of simulates using five different stones in a progression. The initial impression definitely makes me want to continue to explore this process more in depth over time. I get the impression that if this is well-handled that a tomo may or may not be needed at least with this particular Base stone…

The only stones i see any adverse affect of using a worn dmt plate is the super hard stones. They are also the stones that seem to pick up in speed significantly with this particular method.
Do you use less pressure as you generate the slurry for each step?

 

[JPO]

Some photos of the shobudani while getting lapped. Seems like the wear was pretty even with the middle getting the most use. After the last picture the rest of the marks came off at mostly the same time. Made another grid then lapped, however that grid came off quickly.View attachment 1685539View attachment 1685540View attachment 1685541

The low spot would probably be reduced if you worked a nagura around the perimeter of the stone as you use it. I have a few stones i have not lapped in a while. All i do is to condition the surface with naguras, keeping clear of the middle. They stay reasonably flat for a long time. In my opinion it is better to have a marginal high spot then a low spot. If the stone is dead flat, how much work can you do before you are working on a concave surface?
When i lap my stones i get the opposite of what you are showing. My grid gets removed at the middle of the stone first.

 

[Christian1212]

The low spot would probably be reduced if you worked a nagura around the perimeter of the stone as you use it. I have a few stones i have not lapped in a while. All i do is to condition the surface with naguras, keeping clear of the middle. They stay reasonably flat for a long time. In my opinion it is better to have a marginal high spot then a low spot. If the stone is dead flat, how much work can you do before you are working on a concave surface?

Nagura was worked around the edges during the experiment. Also made sure the tomo I used was harder than the base stone. Didn't use a crazy amount of slurry though - wanted to do final finishing only for the test to keep it simple.

 

[JPO]

Nagura was worked around the edges during the experiment. Also made sure the tomo I used was harder than the base stone. Didn't use a crazy amount of slurry though - wanted to do final finishing only for the test to keep it simple.

It might also have to do with your honing style. All my stones seem to wear more close to the edges. I am not saying there is any benefit here. It is just a result of doing predominately rolling strokes. The first inch of the stone will almost act like a rail.

 

[lightfoot]

The only stones i see any adverse affect of using a worn dmt plate is the super hard stones. They are also the stones that seem to pick up in speed significantly with this particular method.
Do you use less pressure as you generate the slurry for each step?

I use very light pressure when generating each slurry so each slurry is generated with essentially the same pressure but with a longer duration while generating the slurry. I hope this helps.

I will add that this is not a fast process by any stretch of the imagination. This takes just as long as a full Negra progression.

 

[alx gilmore]

Your youtube videos have been educational.
Does it make a difference in the results if you did the same number of strokes on each side, but flipped the blade over on each pass?
I have found the jump from 1k to dmt slurry a little challenging. I can remove the striations, but the apex still needs allot more refinement. Starting with a 2k, or even a 3k seems to work better.
Going from a 6k to a nagura progression, or a light dmt slurry have been the sweet spot for me.

I would suggest that hypothetically it would not be a problem if you flipped the blade over after every stroke or every fifth stroke if all other things are equal. Your skill will be the force driving the edge toward perfection. The moving parts (hand motion) during any honing session will prove your skill.

Alx

 

[Empire straights]

This thread has indoors me to get the jnats back out. I shuffled through them today and there are naguras I haven't even played with yet. A true shame.

 

[Empire straights]

I use very light pressure when generating each slurry so each slurry is generated with essentially the same pressure but with a longer duration while generating the slurry. I hope this helps.

I will add that this is not a fast process by any stretch of the imagination. This takes just as long as a full Negra progression.

I never really considered this but it's a really good idea for being able to judge your nagura. I'm not good with keeping consistency with my method, I'm very much the "I'll do what feels right" type. I will say that this board taught me a lot about the physics of sharpening, abrasives,vand honing. That was a game changer when applied to everything else. I like to know why I do things, not just that I do them.

 

[JPO]

Today's little "test", relevant for MY stones.
How well does my asano naguras remove 2k bevel set striations, and how much coarser is my Tenjo compared to my Mejiro nagura.

2k Naniwa pro used with pressure. No attempt was made to create the best 2k edge.

Tenjo nagura without any dilution. The slurry was worked just enough to feel 'good'

Mejiro was also handled the same as the Tenjo. A marginal improvement. It felt a little finer starting out, but not a big difference.

Tomo nagura before stropping.

Tomo slurry then stropped.

So, my naguras from Tenjo, Mejiro and Koma are quite similar. Several tomo slurries should be able to be used after any of them.
They are also quite capable of removing 2k stria quite fast.
A little more convexity behind the apex is seen. So, more time spent at each set might have been beneficial, or going from a 4-6k to the jnat might have been "better".
These edges are definitely smooth and more then sharp enough for me.

 

[lightfoot]

I never really considered this but it's a really good idea for being able to judge your nagura. I'm not good with keeping consistency with my method, I'm very much the "I'll do what feels right" type. I will say that this board taught me a lot about the physics of sharpening, abrasives,vand honing. That was a game changer when applied to everything else. I like to know why I do things, not just that I do.

Just to add a point of clarity that particular comment was made in regards to creating slurry with a worn out diamond plate. But in all reality I don’t use that much pressure when I make slurry with actual Nagura stones either…

 

[Calou]

beautiful and clear images.
from my window, concerning the apex, I see more difference between Tenjou and mejiro than between mejiro and tomo.
the biggest change is between tomo and strop.

 

[JPO]

beautiful and clear images.
from my window, concerning the apex, I see more difference between Tenjou and mejiro than between mejiro and tomo.
the biggest change is between tomo and strop.

I agree. However, I think I should have tried only using the Tenjo and Mejiro after the 2k. The difference might just be more time spent on the stone.
I usually just use a Mejiro or a koma, which I chose depending on the base stone.
I never compared them before. In my opinion, It still makes sense to own more then one. It might make more sense to look for a coarser Tenjo, or even a Botan to make a better set.

Maybe the vendor should have done a better job at putting together a set that was acting more like a progression?

 

[JPO]

One more test with the same razor. The edge was dialed back to 2k.
Then a soft lv 3.5 knife grade jnat was used instead of the asano naguras, and the same lv 5 ++ jnat as the last test, with tomo slurry was used to finish.
2k Naniwa pro.

Approx 50 laps with tomo slurry on the soft stone.

Hard Shobudani Lv 5++ with tomo slurry.

This took less time then the asano progression, and the edge seems to have less micro convexity/rounding at the apex.
The previous edge was both smooth and sharp.
I expect this to be a little more crisp, but still smooth. The added sharpness really does not add much to the shave quality for me. It is just a different type of edge.
Only a shave test can confirm this.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Keep in mind that all natural Nagura are natural stones and can/ will all perform differently. Add to that the base stone is natural and a large variable.

The goal of Nagura is to provide a mix of base and nagura slurry, a synergy of slurry. The same nagura may perform very differently with a different base stone.

Mikawa nagura are not grit rated, they are layer identified and graded for appearance. It is not uncommon for different layers to perform differently than what some may expect, e.g., Koma is finer than Mejiro. Some believe that Mejiro is finer than Koma and some may be.

Add to all that, part of the benefit of Nagura is to refine/smooth the stone face. Most any nagura will leave a smoother face than any diamond plate. Depending on the hardness of the stone, it can take some time/laps to smooth a diamond lapped stone face by honing on slurry, depending on the stone.

The only way to figure out all these variables is to test on the base stone. Switching to another base stone can reveal different results.

So, it is not possible for a vendor to tailor a “set” of nagura that will work like a synthetic stone with predictable results. He can sometimes tailor an Asano nagura or tomo to a particular stone if he has both nagura and base stone in hand.

And then there is technique, slurry thickness, pressure, number of laps and honer experience. You must test and find the combination that works best with your base stone and technique.

For me with my favorite Jnat base stone finishers, I get keener, smoother shaving edges with a few, exhaustively tested Tomo Nagura over Asano nagura. Change the Koma or Mejiro and all that can change.

Now you want to talk about a rabbit hole, start chasing Asano nagura for fineness, then tomo…

 

[Calou]

One more test with the same razor. The edge was dialed back to 2k.
Then a soft lv 3.5 knife grade jnat was used instead of the asano naguras, and the same lv 5 ++ jnat as the last test, with tomo slurry was used to finish.
2k Naniwa pro.
View attachment 1687081
Approx 50 laps with tomo slurry on the soft stone.
View attachment 1687083
Hard Shobudani Lv 5++ with tomo slurry.
View attachment 1687086

This took less time then the asano progression, and the edge seems to have less micro convexity/rounding at the apex.
The previous edge was both smooth and sharp.
I expect this to be a little more crisp, but still smooth. The added sharpness really does not add much to the shave quality for me. It is just a different type of edge.
Only a shave test can confirm this.

what surprises me a lot is that the return to 2K has not even changed your edge. it clearly marked the bevel but not the edge.
First hypothesis I think your edge was thick enough not to touch the stone (micro convexification)

What do you think ?

 

[cugel]

Right now I am in a slump. For some reason the last inch and a half of my blades to the toe are not keen. Heel to middle are exceptional. It’s driving me nuts and must be a torque issue?? No clue and it is causing me tremendous frustration.

I changed something and I don’t know what.

 

[JPO]

what surprises me a lot is that the return to 2K has not even changed your edge. it clearly marked the bevel but not the edge.
First hypothesis I think your edge was thick enough not to touch the stone (micro convexification)

What do you think ?

This is because I first hard joined the edge, then reset the edge on the 2k, lightly jointed the edge and braugt it back with light pressure on the 2k. This creates a clean 2k edge.
There was definitely nothing left from the previous honing session.
This 2k stone can finish quite nice if the surface is worked enough.