Share your honing experiment. What did you learn?

[JPO]

I did a short honing experiment today. Questions;
Is my Mejiro coarser then my koma?
Dmt slurry on JNAT, how does it compare to the results from Asano naguras?
I jointed the edge and started with Méjiro.

I then moved on to Koma, and compared the results.
I found no difference using my stones.
The hard Mejiro felt a little better on this hard stone. They are just as fine.

I then jointed the edge carefully, and brought it back using a worn dmt 600 to generate slurry.
The diamond plate slurry gave deeper striations then the aforementioned nagura steps.

Finally the edge was finished with tomo slurry on a softer jnat.

This support my previous shave tests using these different approaches.
The nagura progression gives a smoother edge then the dmt slurried edge. However, the dmt slurried edge has a unique cutting feel to it. So, one is not better then the other, just different.
I would say that in terms of the best refinement, I would say the nagura progression sets the edge up better for the tomo finishing then the dmt slurried one.

 

[lightfoot]

Personally, I have not been able to replicate the shave quality of a full Asano-stamped Mikawa Nagura progression by alternative methods…

Great photos.

 

[JPO]

Personally, I have not been able to replicate the shave quality of a full Asano-stamped Mikawa Nagura progression by alternative methods…

Great photos.

That have been my experience as well.
I never compared my mejiro and koma naguras before. The mejiro is harder, and works well on hard stones. The koma is softer, and is generating slurry faster. I don't think I need to use both. This test confirms that to me.
I have also struggled to get a good finish on this razor. The bevel angle was 15.5 deg. It needed one layer of tape to be able to close the apex, and create a good edge.
Lessons learned. If the bevel angle of any of my Dovo razor drop below 16 deg I will add tape.
I usually don't bother measuring the bevel angles of my razors, unless I have issues getting a good edge.

 

[gbupp]

I get much better results when using a 1200 diamond plate than you did with your 600. Very light pressure when you pull the slurry up, basically just gravity. Worth trying if you continue to experiment. Also curious how long you stayed on the 600 grit slurry for.

As for nagura, stone to stone can be very different. I've had faster coarser mejiro than most koma, and the same with koma to mejiro. Each stone is its own persona.

 

[Jud]

Yesterday I tried the 1k bevel set the Shobudani Awasedo 10,5,2,1 strop 10 strokes on leather. It produced a shareable edge. Just was not comfortable or enjoyable. I didn't complete the shave, I re-honed shortly after, with King 1/6K and then to the Shobudani Awasedo progression Najura Botan, Tenjyou, & Mejiro. Skipping the Shapton Pro 12K before using Shobudani Awasedo. Todays shave, very happy with the results.

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[JPO]

Yesterday I tried the 1k bevel set the Shobudani Awasedo 10,5,2,1 strop 10 strokes on leather. It produced a shareable edge. Just was not comfortable or enjoyable. I didn't complete the shave, I re-honed shortly after, with King 1/6K and then to the Shobudani Awasedo progression Najura Botan, Tenjyou, & Mejiro. Skipping the Shapton Pro 12K before using Shobudani Awasedo. Todays shave, very happy with the results.

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I think you need to do more then one set of diminishing strokes, and finish with a tomo slurry to get ok results. You also need to have a good stone. I prefer to use synthetic stones up to 6k and not use any dmt slurry.
The 1k to jnat have never given me good edges.
It might be worth doing a test again to see the difference.

 

[JPO]

Also curious how long you stayed on the 600 grit slurry for.

I did not spend allot of time. Enough to feel the feedback did not change.
It might be worth trying a 1200 slurry. I use a diasharp plate 600/1200.

How do you know you got better results with your 1200 slurry?
The base stone is also an important factor.

 

[JPO]

New test with the same razor.
1k shapton to dmt 600 slurry, followed by tomo slurry without dilution. This time I used a better jnat.
1k shapton gs

10,5,3,2,1 on each side with dmt slurry. Almost all the 1k damage is gone.

This is after one more 10,5,3,2,1 set. A small improvement.

This is after a minute or two on tomo slurry without dilution.
This edge is slightly sharper then what I got the last time.
Seems like this particular stone is capable of removing the 1k stria quite fast. This have given me a typical crisp jnat edge in the past. It is probably a notch sharper then what I typically go for.

 

[ZeelandsRoem]

Did you also try a few laps on the stone only with water?

 

[gbupp]

I did not spend allot of time. Enough to feel the feedback did not change.
It might be worth trying a 1200 slurry. I use a diasharp plate 600/1200.

How do you know you got better results with your 1200 slurry?
The base stone is also an important factor.

Just looking at your edge pictures, I can still see the distinct striations. Mine doesn't have that by the end. I suppose "know" is a strong word given I don't have your razor in hand, but *many* of my stones produce better results with 1200 slurry than you got with the 600 there is probably a better way of saying it - and I would suspect that is down to the plate. I use an Atoma versus a DMT.

I also would spend a standard amount of time on the Honyama, probably 10 minutes given its going to cut slower than the nagura so should take longer to see the full results and you usually do 10-15 minutes post nagura setup anyway. I think often people don't spend enough time on their Honyama, but that is just my gut feeling.

 

[JPO]

Just looking at your edge pictures, I can still see the distinct striations. Mine doesn't have that by the end. I suppose "know" is a strong word given I don't have your razor in hand, but *many* of my stones produce better results with 1200 slurry than you got with the 600 there is probably a better way of saying it - and I would suspect that is down to the plate. I use an Atoma versus a DMT.

I also would spend a standard amount of time on the Honyama, probably 10 minutes given its going to cut slower than the nagura so should take longer to see the full results and you usually do 10-15 minutes post nagura setup anyway. I think often people don't spend enough time on their Honyama, but that is just my gut feeling.

What kind of magnification are you using?
These photos are at magnified 6- 700 x, so a human hair would cover most of the image if included. Even on a 30k edge you can se the striations at the bevel.

 

[JPO]

Did you also try a few laps on the stone only with water?

No, I did not finish with water. This type of edge is already sharper then what I typically use. So, I have no need to optimise the edge.
The goal of these tests is not to search for a perfect edge. This is just a test razor.

 

[gbupp]

What kind of magnification are you using?
These photos are at magnified 6- 700 x, so a human hair would cover most of the image if included. Even on a 30k edge you can se the striations at the bevel.

Yeah that is higher than I have, I only have up to 400x to be working with. What I mean I suppose is the presence of them at the apex in such a noticeable fashion compared to your koma picture. I know of course that nothing lacks striations if you magnify it enough. Despite not being the same magnification, my koma/mejiro edges look similar to yours. As such, if I raise slurry with my exhausted Atoma 400 (closest I have to your 600) I get a more ragged appearance on the apex like your 600 example and I can easily see the scratches leading to the apex (similar to your picture) even after working the surface for 5-10 mins. If I work the 400 to kingdom come it smooths out, but I'd have to be there a long time to break down the slurry to a level I want. I bet it would though if I spent an hour+. My 1200 slurry generated with the plate's weight does not do that though, and on appropriate stones I find performance wise outperforms the koma/mejiro while looking brighter/mirrored, more easily replacing a tomo in my experience.

 

[JPO]

The goal of these test was just to test the cutting performance of my stones, and to see what results I got with a minimal amount of work.
Where is the point of diminishing returns
Stroke counts is just a reference point. I don't hone this way normally.

I have now shave tested three different edges with the same razor.
Results:
1. 1k shapton to dmt slurry on JNAT. The edge was not grate. I don't think more work on the tomo slurry would have helped. I need to use some mid range stones, or naguras if I start at 1k. More work on the dmt slurry would probably also work.
It is not enough just to remove the 1k stria. The edge damage goes deeper then just the visible striations.

2. Edge jointing, followed by mejiro, koma and tomo produced an excellent edge. Smooth and sharp.

3. Edge jointing, followed by dmt slurry and tomo slurry. Acceptable edge.

 

[Gamma]

Many trials, many experiences. Not so many actual 'experiments' though. Science is a defined thing and calling something an experiment or 'test' means something that, often, is not really what we encounter in myriad disciplines across the internet.
Wearing a lab coat doesn't turn me into a scientist. Having an advanced metallurgy microscope doesn't make me a metallurgist.

So I take what people, including myself, see - say - and show, with a grain of salt most of the time. For my own personal understanding, if I have not tried, intensely so. to accurately disprove what I think I know, then all all I have is circumstance. which might be valid, but also might not be valid.

People love to show, and look at, microscope photos as science and fact - personally, I steer away from it because I know all too well how easy it is to 'see' a confirmation when it's not really there, or not see one when it is. On the internet, too many tidbits of info are presented as fact when they're nothing more than images, or 'info' taken out of context.

Unless someone has some sort of machinery that never misses a beat so far as angle/pressure/etc are concerned, along with an endless bounty of razors that are all exactly identical down to specific grain structures on the surface and subsurface... (neither exists) then anything I see is viewed as situational and circumstantial.

Sometimes someone is unable to achieve a certain result with a certain thing, stone, razors, etc - and they take photos to prove it. Perhaps the 'test' was just an incomplete trial though. Maybe the blade wasn't done correctly to start, maybe that steel isn't in great shape under the visible surface, maybe the stone wasn't lapped well, maybe that stone needed to be lapped further, maybe the user needed to spend more time on the stone or use a different technique. Maybe that blade hones differently at a different bevel angle... and so on...

What I've learned from my 'experiments' as I go through these cycles of learning and understanding...
Literally, about 80-90% of the time my initial feelings or thoughts change after pushing the envelope and being honest with myself about what I am actually experiencing as I go. And doing something once is not an experiment.

There is an ancient story about a blacksmith in Japan; one day - that smith sold an expensive Kanna blade to a woodworker. The next day the woodworker came back and said the edge was chipping and for the money it shouldn't do that. The smith told him to hone it back a bit and it would be ok. The next day the woodworker returned to complain that the edge was still chipping and the blade must be defective. The smith, again, tells him to hone it back a smidge and it'll be ok. The next day the wood worker returns to complain about the chipping edge again, and the smith tells him to hone it back again. He also said that if he hones it back again 1 more time and it still chips he'll replace it.
The next day the woodworker returned, smiling, and said that honing it back that time did the trick and the Kanna blade was more than meeting expectations now.

There is more to the story but that part covers it - just because something 'seems' to be a certain way, or looks a certain way, that doesn't mean the thing in question is actually as it appears to be.

It's just honing.
Rub steel on a rock.
Shave.
Done.
Repeat.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Two thing going on there, first a lot depends on the base stone, you cannot compare natural stones for finish or aggression, they can/ will finish differently, they are natural.

When using diamond plates to make slurry the grit of the plate can make a difference. Unlike a stone were the grit is in the binder and only the tops of the grit make contact, with a diamond plate the grit is on top of the binder, so a large part of the grit is exposed. Diamond plates cut deeper, much deeper.

So, when you use a diamond plat to make slurry, the slurry is larger, and it cuts deep stria into the base stone. Depending on the hardness of the stone of unknown make up and how the diamonds cut the stone, (stria direction, e.g., Circles) the stria on the stone face can affect the edge, (edge impact) especially with short duration honing. How fast the slurry breaks down and the stone face flattens, (self -slurries) is stone dependent.

Also, on different base stones 600 grit can be very different from 1200 diamond grit, even if it is a well-used diamond plate, as the 600 grit will still cut a groove 600 grit wide, but maybe not 600 grit deep.

Conversely, using a nagura, (depending on the grit of the Nagura) the nagura abrades the nagura and the base stone to make slurry, but the nagura is surfacing, (smoothing) the base stone which can make a difference in aggression and especially edge quality.

When I use Alex’s half lap, diminishing stroke honing, (easy to use with great results), I do 2 sets of 10, then 5,2,3,1. The 2 sets of 10 are less likely to make a large burr, yet cut quickly, the following laps polish.

Interesting post and great photos, JPO.

 

[lightfoot]

As far as a bevel, diamond slurry, & tomo process I’ve found that much like a full Nagura progression, I wind up having to go through the whole thing quite a number of times to wrap my head/muscle memory around what’s happening.

 

[JPO]

As far as a bevel, diamond slurry, & tomo process I’ve found that much like a full Nagura progression, I wind up having to go through the whole thing quite a number of times to wrap my head/muscle memory around what’s happening.

That is part of the reason why I started this thread. I am just trying to strip this down to the basics, and try to get a better understanding of what is going on.
I know perfectly well as an engineer what it takes to actually go from an hypothesis to any meaningful conclusion. I have not made any conclusion, just observations. People need to figure out if, and how it might apply to their honing method, and understanding of some of the variables.

 

[lightfoot]

That is part of the reason why I started this thread. I am just trying to strip this down to the basics, and try to get a better understanding of what is going on.
I know perfectly well as an engineer what it takes to actually go from an hypothesis to any meaningful conclusion. I have not made any conclusion, just observations. People need to figure out if, and how it might apply to their honing method, and understanding of some of the variables.

One thing I’ve had to do when spending considerable amounts of time trying to understand a particular process is to always have something else handy to shave with if needed. I say this simply because if I take a single razor and run it through a particular honing routine over and over again I wind up with successes and failures even while using more or less the same approach repeatedly. So there are times when I have to separate grooming needs from my honing efforts in order to have a little separation between the two…

 

[JPO]

JPO is playing with his stones again. This time without a lab coat, and without socks..

3k shapton glass, midrange soft jnat, followed by tomo slurry on finisher.

Midrange jnat after 3k. The stone is finer then I thought. I will try a coarser one at a later stage.

Tomo slurry on jnat finisher with slurry. Now the edge is overhoned. A small weak burr is starting to develop. So, how do you recover?

I decided to remove the false edge by using a TI pasted balsa strop. After approximately 10 laps the edge looks much cleaner. Only a shave test will tell if this performs as well as it looks.