The Str8 outshines the DE again

[Steerpike]

Hey, I'm not trying to say a straight is better! I just get the impression that DE blades are polished finer, so will cut easily without the need for scything strokes. Plus they are shorter, so you won't get any pulling sensations on a thick beard.

I don't think straights are specifically better for heavy beards- wedge ones seem to be, but if you gave some thick bristled beginner a really hollow ground staright, he might have more trouble than with a DE.

I don't think that Straight, DE and cartridge razors are entirely different- perhaps we could imagine it as a continuum of safety features, straights at the beginning with none, then with the "sabot a razoir" on it to help a beginner to learn to shave himself, then the Rolls Razor, which has minimal safety features, then DE, then M3, then the cartridge razors with wire over the blade, aloe vera strips, compasses, blah blah blah.
So the nearer the beginning you get, the more it is up to you, the more it is a skill. That's why most of us are here, surely? Its a skill, there's satisfaction in that, and we enjoy it? Plenty of folks wetshave with multiblades, get a good shave and enjoy it. Lets not have a huge argument shall we?

 

[mparker762]

Hey, I'm not trying to say a straight is better! I just get the impression that DE blades are polished finer, so will cut easily without the need for scything strokes.

Mostly they have a coating of Teflon or something similar, reducing cutting friction and making them feel sharper than they really are. See Making of the Modern Blade at the Schick website. They're talking about cartridge blades, but these technologies originated back in the DE era.

 

[Steerpike]

Interesting! So the edge maybe isn't as polished as it seems?

It's interesting that the polish on the bevel can make such a difference to the comfort as a shave- could this be why the most hollow ground razors, with almost no bevel at all, can be so comfortable?

I suppose the same thing happens with other blades- when you polish up both bevels of a knife, there's definitely a difference in cutting stuff than when you just polish the edge bevel.

 

[Thebigspendur]

I think the point here (pun intended) is in the evolution of the current razor systems we have gone from an instrument requiring skill and practice to a tool requiring just common sense. The De is kind of more towards the current systems while a razor like a rolls is closer to a straight. I think a novice who picks up DE can be shaving lke a pro in no time while a straight user will struggle for a while and take possibly months to get really good shaves. Do you think this might affect people's attitudes about which system is potentially better (better not neccessarily meaning just closer)?

 

[mparker762]

It's interesting that the polish on the bevel can make such a difference to the comfort as a shave- could this be why the most hollow ground razors, with almost no bevel at all, can be so comfortable?

It's a bit more complicated that that, because during the same time frame as the razors were getting more and more hollow ground, the steel they were using was getting harder and harder - these two trends were almost certainly related. There are modern makers like Robert Williams and Joe Chandler that are making wedge and near-wedge blades out of some of the best modern steels, and these do not shave like vintage wedges, they are simply in a class of their own, with their extremely sharp edges and stiff heavy blades it is surprisingly easy to get them so sharp they're scary to shave with. Both of my Robert Williams razors are sharpened to somewhat below their capabilities because of this.

 

[Duggo]

According to Chris Moss he's now getting day-1 feather sharpness off his shiny new 30k Shapton hone. Although you can buy a lot of feather blades for that kind of dough...

You mean, 30K as in $30,000?

 

[Joe Lerch]

I don't think straights are specifically better for heavy beards- wedge ones seem to be, but if you gave some thick bristled beginner a really hollow ground staright, he might have more trouble than with a DE.

They are, especially the heavier blades. One shortcoming of DE blades is that they're very thin and flexible. This is a shortcoming with heavy beards because they cause blade flexing and vibration. Not only does this lead to an inferior shave but can produce a great deal of discomfort. Even a 5/8 str8 ie a lot heavier and stiffer than a DE blade and does not suffer from this problem.

There is a razor out there for everyone, but IMO the various systems that came after the DEs were mostly a money making scheme by the razor companies. Gillette started it when they started getting competition for DE blades. There answer was a constant stream of systems which became obsolete and were followed by incompatible systems. With each new one came empty promises and higher prices. It wasn't until the motorized M3 and Fusion that they finally met their promise: an effective razor that can be used by the unskilled shaver. But now their prices are so high that it's almost ridiculous.

 

[Doc4]

You mean, 30K as in $30,000?

No, it's the grit size (namely, very very fine. stick in about 29,998 more 'very's and you get the idea.) Most regular honing of straights takes place on 4k and 8k grit.

There is a razor out there for everyone, but IMO the various systems that came after the DEs were mostly a money making scheme by the razor companies.

Razor companies ... money making schemes? Pull the other one!

 

[Joe Lerch]

I think the point here (pun intended) is in the evolution of the current razor systems we have gone from an instrument requiring skill and practice to a tool requiring just common sense. The De is kind of more towards the current systems while a razor like a rolls is closer to a straight. I think a novice who picks up DE can be shaving lke a pro in no time while a straight user will struggle for a while and take possibly months to get really good shaves. Do you think this might affect people's attitudes about which system is potentially better (better not neccessarily meaning just closer)?

I'm starting to wonder how many of these razors you have actually used. The Rolls Razor is a safety razor. It bears little resemblance to a str8 other than you need to maintain it the same way, because it uses a piece of a str8 blade. What makes it exceptional is the flat angle at which it is used. Some of the GEM razors have a similar benefit.

I agree that a DE is easier to begin shaving with and will be mastered more quickly. But when you can use both the str8 is actually easier to shave with. Lynn sums it up when he says the str8 is more forgiving. It's also the reason why so many competent str8 shavers complain about cutting themselves with a DE. Successful DE shaving requires a lighter touch and more delicate technique. Many str8 shavers try DEs and give them up for that reason.

People's opinions on which type of razor is potentially better will be affected the most when the're better with one than the other. What I notice is that the guys who are competent with both are not so quick to consider str8s as a naturally better shave. Those of us who use mostly str8s don't do it because of any superiority of the shave, but because of many other reasons.

I don't believe in raising false expectations. I strongly encourage everyone to try a str8, but do it for the fun, for the connection to history, for the beauty and variety of the razors, because you want to be a collector, or because you enjoy honing and stropping. I don't push a better shave, because it may take a long time to get there, and all that time you'll be thinking how much better your shaves were with your DE.

I compare this to the way I feel about DEs. My favorite one is the Vision, because of the overall shaving experience, but it doesn't give me the closest shave.

 

[Steerpike]

IMO the various systems that came after the DEs were mostly a money making scheme by the razor companies. .

Come on, the DE was the first such money making scheme, wasn't it? Gillette would have started selling anything that needed a part replaced regularly, he just thought of razors first. He certainly didn't invent the safety razor- it's just that before his invention, the blades were not disposible. He used a safety razor called the star, apparently. He is to be remembered as the inventor of loss-leader marketing.
What inspires me is the number of gadgets such as lilicraps hone, that were invented to get around chucking the blades away, before the disposible mentality really set in, and people got used to the idea of just throwing stuff away. People used to hone DE blades on the inside of a drinking glass, and strop them on their hands. That's what I call ingenuity.

I'm sure I didn't take long enough trying out the DE and learning to use it- a week, in fact. Then I gave it to my brother (our Dad was pissed off that he kept using his disposibles), along with a brush and some Trumpers Rose, and he loves it. I couldn't imagine him trying out a staright though- as you say, the right razor for everyone.
One thing that makes me want to try out DE again is these honing devives, like the glass, or the concave lithide. If I find another one for £2.50 on the flea market, I might give it another try. I'm an eco friendly sort, you see, chucking stuff away irks me.

About straight razors, and heavy beards, 5/8 isn't all that flexible no matter how hollow. But times when my technique has been off, shaving in a hurry with little prep, with a 6/8 Henkel scale 12, I have hard stubble, and the blade can skip. It's just user error really- I can get the best shaves with it any other time. But in a pinch, hung over, not much time, I've lathered up fast and set straight to work with my wedge (didn't even strop, that much of a hurry!), and been surprised at the close, comfortable shave I got, on feeling my chin later that day. Heavy beards just jump off your face at the sight of a wedge!

 

[Arthur J Cummings]

Where did you get your str8? Have no idea how to go about starting with a straight razor . But deteermined to learn, Enlighten me please!
Sound like you thought long and hard over this.


Connman

 

[heavydutysg135]

Where did you get your str8? Have no idea how to go about starting with a straight razor . But deteermined to learn, Enlighten me please!
Sound like you thought long and hard over this.


Connman

I suggest that you go over the the straightrazorplace.com as they have tons of useful information on how to start out with a straight razor.

 

[Steelforge]

I agree that a DE is easier to begin shaving with and will be mastered more quickly. But when you can use both the str8 is actually easier to shave with. Lynn sums it up when he says the str8 is more forgiving. It's also the reason why so many competent str8 shavers complain about cutting themselves with a DE. Successful DE shaving requires a lighter touch and more delicate technique. Many str8 shavers try DEs and give them up for that reason.

Definately true for me. I laughed when I used to hear Lynn talking about straights being forgiving, but after using them exclusively for about 7 months I tried going back to a DE (Gillette Superspeed) again and couldn't understand why I was cutting myself to ribbons, I tried one shave and nicked myself 3 times quite badly. The next day I was back using a straight again and thinking "wow this is so much more forgiving". I never believed it until I experienced it for myself.

 

[Steelforge]

Where did you get your str8? Have no idea how to go about starting with a straight razor . But deteermined to learn, Enlighten me please!
Sound like you thought long and hard over this.


Connman

Have a look here http://www.straightrazorplace.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6759

 

[Arthur J Cummings]

Thanks !I'll do my homework!

Connman