The Str8 outshines the DE again

[Joe Lerch]

Huh? First I never even mentioned a feather. I was only talking DE's. I consider a feather a type of straight basically and your right a feather is sharper than a regular straight but then its a type of straight so there is no argument there.

Nobody took offense. You're just plain wrong. First of all, you're wrong about Feathers. They make a great DE blade which is just as sharp, if not sharper than their str8 blades. They're identical under a microscope. So, you can considr all you want. You're wrong.

I shaved with a DE for many years before I used a straight and still have a DE in my rotation. As I said, though my face is BBS after a DE shave the stubble appears faster than with a straight.

This is a conclusive statement that doesn't explain the basis for what you say. What DE did you use and what blades (obviously not Feathers, because you don't know about them). In general, I agree with you about closeness. I've been a DE shaver for nearly 50 years. I started with a Gillette when they were the Fusions (of their day). I've used every system that came out, and I have a collection of various antique razors (e.g. GEM, Rolls Razor, Wilkinson wedge). Nothing has made a bigger difference in my shaving than using Feather blades, not even using str8s. Those blades improve any razor, but only the slant and Futur can supass a str8. Basically, unless you've used Feather blades and in those razors, you're not in a position to make the judgment. As I said repeated tests over many monthsshowed that those two razors with Feather blades outdid str8s (I have a collection of over 200 and compared to my best, the very best being a Robert Williams custom). You're not only wrong, you nevber tried the combination that might have made a difference.

I don't think you'll find a well experienced straight user ever tell you that he got an equal or better shave with a DE than with a straight./QUOTE] I'm an experienced DE user. As I said, I've done over 200 razors. So is Hal, and so is Chris Moss. How does your experience compare? You can fault my str8 technique, but it's belied by the fact that I can do as well as the best DE with A Feather str8, especially with the Japanese style.

If a DE can equal or best a straight why are all these guys spending all that money on razors, hones, strops, etc and all that time and effort when you could just pop a blade in a DE and do just as good a job or better?

I shave mostly with str8s (80%), but it's not for the shave. If that's the only reason you shave with a str8, you're selling it short. I love the historic tie, I love the artistry of str8s and the variety, I enjoy collecting, and I enjoy restoring and honing.

By suggesting without any justification that there's something in the str8 that makes it naturally better, you're not being sensible. The Rolls Razor is a 2 inch piece of a 7/8 English str8 that's put on a safety handle. It's honed and stropped just like a str8. Should it be as good as a str8? It's better than most, because it can be used almost flat against the skin, much flatter than a str8. That's the same featur that makes GEM razors exceptional. I think you're getting the point. There's a lot more here than meets the eye, and a lot more than you're considering.

 

[Joe Lerch]

I think that a Feather AC blade is an unrealistic goal to set for straight razor sharpening.

I think you're absolutely right. I started with str8s first but got my AC before I had to do any honing, so the AC was my standard, and it retarded my advancement. Then I got my first razor from Lynn and suddenly realized he didn't meet that standard either. Lynn's standard is extremely high, but achievable (no doubt with a lot more effort for me than for him). He has more than 5000 razors under his belt, so it's just more proof of what you said.

 

[Steerpike]

Perhaps this is getting a little heated?

I think that the sharpness of a straight razor is different to that of a DE blade, and they are intended to be used in different ways.

A DE must be sharp enough to shear through hairs it meets, travelling straight down your face, the edge at right angles to the direction of travel. The edge is absolutely polished.

A straight razor has microserrations, the "teeth" old fasioned barbers used to discuss so much. This is because the edge is usually set on something of a comparatively coarse grit- a scratch pattern is visible off most hones, including the barber hones, a 6K waterstone, even a 10K if your eyesight is good. Arkansas stones get a good polish, but not an absolute mirror finish. Use a wedge to see this easily. The concern of the old barbers was getting the teeth just right, not long and thin, as they would break. Not too thick, or it won't cut. A finer polish was considered best for a light beard, larger, stronger teeth were expected to perform better on tougher bristles. So the straight razor is handled differently, either by angling the blade in relation to the direction of travel, or by using "scything" motions, to optimise the bite of the teeth into stubble, without cutting the skin (no slicing motions). If you are using a straight with the same strokes as a DE, perhaps you are not giving it the best chance. With a Feather (I've not used these) perhaps this isn't the case, and maybe scything motions would be too likely to cut you.

IN THEORY, the staright razor can do anything a DE can, because it has a blade, but it is up to you to use it. A safety razor has more stuff to do the hard work for you, and make it easier. The extreme of this progression is the cartridge razor- springs and stabilisers all over, you could wack yourself in the face with it for a while, not likely cut yourself, and you may even get a shave.
In theory. But in reality, a straight is a different sort of blade, demands different handling, and performs its duties differently.

 

[bpatton]

Thought I would point out that the micro serations v. a smooth bevel is a hotly debated subject at straight razor place...there is no majority opinion on micro serations v. smooth. Basically its personal preference (as I understand it).

 

[Steerpike]

Do you mean whether you should have micro serrations or not, or if they exist or not?I read someone on a knife forum saying that the existence micro serrations are a myth, but basically he was talking crap- they are there no matter what, no edge, or surface, anywhere is entirely 100% smooth and straight. It just depends on how fine your finishing abrasive is, how near you get to this.

So are some people arguing that the blade bevel should be finished to a mirror finish, so the serrations are as small as possible? I think that this is only easily do-able with the modern abrasives such as the diamond pastes. Even Chromium oxide paste is (I understand) quite recent in terms of shaving history. So the question is whether such fine polishes are necessary, and if the use of them would necessitate different handling of the razor.

Out of interest, do the old natural stones like the Coticle and the Escher make a (to the naked eye) mirror finish? I've never used one, the nearest thing to a mirror finish i've seen is on tools sharpened on a transluscent Arkansas.

 

[bpatton]

http://www.straightrazorplace.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12099&highlight=coticle

There is alot of reading there. What you see when you look at the razors edge is the bevel not the actual edge, so who knows what kind of edge you actually get...not me. Go to the link in the first post to see a "mirror finish" on a bevel and a "seration" on a bevel. Interesting stuff.

Mparker's posts and the debate going on over several pages are particularly interesting.

 

[Joe Lerch]

Perhaps this is getting a little heated?

I think that the sharpness of a straight razor is different to that of a DE blade, and they are intended to be used in different ways.

A DE must be sharp enough to shear through hairs it meets, travelling straight down your face, the edge at right angles to the direction of travel. The edge is absolutely polished.

The only thing that gets me worked up is when you pass on mis-information. Remember, we a lot of newbies here who are trusting us for guidance.

Your post is largely mis-information. A str8 is no different from a DE as a blade. The primary difference is that the DE has a safety bar, which protects you from cutting into your face. With minimum experience, yoou won't do that with a str8, if you're careful. As for the shearing action, a razor like a str8 is designed specifically to give you that action, and you can tell the difference. You can also impart a shearing action with any de, but it's a bit cumbersome.

A straight razor has microserrations, the "teeth" old fasioned barbers used to discuss so much.

To the extent that you're suggesting that a DE blade has no microserrations, this is again misinformation. All edges have microserrations. THe only issue is how coarse they are. On an objective basis, sharpness is measured as a function of how wide the edge is. The finer grit let's you get a thinner or sharper edge. If you're interested, see a treatise by Prof. Verhoeven on knife sharpening. You can find it easily in a Google search.

IN THEORY, the staright razor can do anything a DE can, because it has a blade, but it is up to you to use it. A safety razor has more stuff to do the hard work for you, and make it easier.

We're talking about str8s and DEs, which are ordinary edges. The cartridges have features which disable some of the control, and should not be discussed at the same time. In general, a str8 will cut closer, but there are a few razor/blade combinations on DEs that are competitive, and some are better. Of course, a str8 will be better in certain cases, like very heavy beards. Suggesting that a str8 is better than any DE because it is a str8 is mis-information. To do fair experiments, you have to be proficient with both. You need to learn the technique of each for them to work well. You can get started faster with a DE and reach proficiency quicker, but don't assume you have it because you're good with a str8.

A number of us here have proficiency with both and are telling you that the right DE/blade combination can match or exceed the closeness of a str8. This is a general statement YRMV. A DE doesn't have more stuff to do the hard work, just a safety feature. Before we can believe what you say about comparing the two, you have to convince us that you've actually done. If you haven't tried various razors with Feather DE blades, you haven't.

In theory. But in reality, a straight is a different sort of blade, demands different handling, and performs its duties differently.

Again, you mention theory, and I don't know what theory you're relying on, but based on your other statements, I'm skeptical. It's not rocket science. Blades have been around for a long time, and there's a lot of knowledge about them and sharpening. Very little of it is really scientific, but Verhoeven's treatise is. He found, for example, that the geometry of a str8 edge and razor blade edge are essentially the same.

So, what's the difference? We need to look at perceived sharpness. An edge coated with PDFE will seem smoother and feel sharper, even if it's not actually sharper. There, the razor blades have an advantage. There's no coating on them. So, you make them equally sharp and the DE will seem sharper, because it will cut easier. Also, I've looked at Feather blades (and many str8s) under a microscope. You can see the microserrations on both types of blades. You can't see the teeth unless you have something like 3000x magnification and an electron microscope. They're that fine. But what I can see under 100-200x is that the Feathers are different. They have the look of a carbide blade at the edge, while other blades just have a bevel. This may account for why they stay sharp for so long. I have no idea what that edge treatment might be.

Please, when you talk about theory tell us what theory you mean and what the source is. I agree about the micro teeth, but that's pretty much where it stops.

 

[mparker762]

Even Chromium oxide paste is (I understand) quite recent in terms of shaving history.

"Recent" meaning 100+ years. Chromium oxide was the pigment for green paint back in the late 1800s and early 1900's (and may still be for all I know). My great-great-grandfather used to hone his razors on a green-painted board.

 

[Joe Lerch]

Do you mean whether you should have micro serrations or not, or if they exist or not?I read someone on a knife forum saying that the existence micro serrations are a myth, but basically he was talking crap- they are there no matter what, no edge, or surface, anywhere is entirely 100% smooth and straight. It just depends on how fine your finishing abrasive is, how near you get to this.

So are some people arguing that the blade bevel should be finished to a mirror finish, so the serrations are as small as possible? I think that this is only easily do-able with the modern abrasives such as the diamond pastes. Even Chromium oxide paste is (I understand) quite recent in terms of shaving history. So the question is whether such fine polishes are necessary, and if the use of them would necessitate different handling of the razor.

Out of interest, do the old natural stones like the Coticle and the Escher make a (to the naked eye) mirror finish? I've never used one, the nearest thing to a mirror finish i've seen is on tools sharpened on a transluscent Arkansas.

Now you're talking!

I've seen those discussions on SRP (and I've been involved in some of them) and, as you seem to point out, those guys are misguided. You might as well take the position that the world is flat. For one thing, you can see the scratch lines on the bevel. The microserrations come about because the scratch lines intersect the edge at an angle. The are plenty of microscope shots that show microteeth. For starters, look here: http://users.ameritech.net/knives/Juranitch1977Feb.htm. This has to do with knives, but the teeth would just be finer with a razor.

Basically, you're right. You can't avoid microserrations. It's just a question of how fine you can get them.

BTW, something like a coticule is nominally about 12K, but Lynn thinks they're much finer. I agree. They seem to give results equivalent to a 16K. Of course, it depends on the quality of the stone.

The term "polish" is used kind of loosely. It even applies to fine honing, like an 8K. If you mean to apply to essentially no material removal, only a plain leather strop does that. It seems that the polishing is not really a sharpness issue, but one of comfort. If you have rough scatch lines, you can wear them down through polishing and have a smoother bevel, which is more comfortable, but the microserrations aren't smaller.

 

[Joe Lerch]

If you want to see some more microscope photos showing microserrations and what a technical expert and inventore syas about them look here: http://www.furitechnics.com.au/nobullzone_enter_usa.html.

 

[mparker762]

http://www.straightrazorplace.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12099&highlight=coticle

There is alot of reading there. What you see when you look at the razors edge is the bevel not the actual edge, so who knows what kind of edge you actually get...not me. Go to the link in the first post to see a "mirror finish" on a bevel and a "seration" on a bevel. Interesting stuff.

Mparker's posts and the debate going on over several pages are particularly interesting.

I'm not sure which side of this argument I'm being invoked in favor of, but that linked discussion over at SRP is almost completely orthogonal to the matters under discussion here.

As for the argument at hand, I'm pretty much siding with Joe Lerch on that. Go Joe!

 

[Thebigspendur]

I think we're beating a dead horse here. To argue which is closer a straight or a DE is very much like asking a gun fancier which is better S&W or Colt or which is better Ford or Chevy. each side will justify which is better. For myself I have shaved with both. probably alot longer with a DE than a straight both vintage Gillette and mercur with all kinds of blades and I will tell you that when I'm done shaving with either my face is BBS. You couldn't tell the difference by feeling my face but with a DE by late evening the stubble is coming through. With a straight I don't get that until the next morning.

If you asked this question over at SRP you know what the consensus would be and over here the DE guys will hold sway. So if your looking for the ultimate truth there will be none. The truth will be whatever your own experience and preference speak to you.

 

[Joe Lerch]

You couldn't tell the difference by feeling my face but with a DE by late evening the stubble is coming through. With a straight I don't get that until the next morning.

I agree with the standard for closeness, and that's what I used for my long term tests.

BTW, I'm one the str8 guys (80%), and I used to be a mod at srp.com. I'll repeat what I said before. I don't use the str8 for the shave, and if that's your selling point, you're selling it short.

Also, if I had never used a Vision, slant or Futur with a Feather blade I would have your opinion. If you haven't made your comparisons with those, you should think about that. My long term results were that a quality str8 shaved closer than a DE without Feather blades. And with Feather blades only the Vision was competitive, and the slant or Futur was better. I used quality str8s in the form they came from the various honemeisters. That eliminates my honing as an issue. And I found that a Feather AC was as good as the best DEs. That eliminates my str8 technique as an issue.

 

[AFDavis11]

OK, that was fun. Before I start my thread on how a pair of tweezers really provides the closest shave, lets call it a day.

 

[Joe Lerch]

As for the argument at hand, I'm pretty much siding with Joe Lerch on that. Go Joe!

That's comforting, because whe're both "Bruce Lee."

 

[ouch]

One thing I like about straights is that the blade is much longer than a DE blade. With a straight, you can cut a wider swath, which reduces the pressure for a given amount of force applied.

 

[Joe Lerch]

OK, that was fun. Before I start my thread on how a pair of tweezers really provides the closest shave, lets call it a day.

Julius Caesar would agree with you.

 

[mparker762]

Julius Caesar would agree with you.

I wonder if that was because of the epilepsy. If I were epileptic I would much rather have a pair of tweezers at my throat in the event of a seizure.

 

[Joe Lerch]

I wonder if that was because of the epilepsy. If I were epileptic I would much rather have a pair of tweezers at my throat in the event of a seizure.

Whatever the reason it became the style of the Roman gentlemen at the time.

 

[Thebigspendur]

Actually I do have a mercur vision and quite honestly I find the new 38c gives me a better shave than the vision no matter how I set it or what combination of blades I use. But in the end I'll still take a straight over a DE.

I'm done beating this dead horse.