Making a hone

[Nobody]

That's good. I hope your piece I have does not become a permanent part of my arsenal...I have not had time to hone since my first trial of it.

OTOH the edge seems to be holding up, but may not have been as refined as my usual edge because it seems to be pulling after only a few shaves. Maybe I did not spend enough time refining the edge prior to finishing. I plan to put the petrified wood edge fresh on this razor (a 5/8 Wester Bros. Manganese square point, bone scales), and one of my good 4/8 razors (another Wester Bros. Manganese, bone scales) I also plan to put coticule edges on my other two Wester Bros Manganese, a 5/8 neutered with bone scales, and a 4/8 with acrylic scales.

Yes, I like Wester Bros razors, but I think 4 is a good number.

Phil

Now that I am no longer purely sacrificing my face and shave quality testing rocks for the benefits of honing science, the petrified wood is being used as an intermediate step before the final stone, which has turned out to be candy jasper for now. I can shave off the pet wood and be fairly pleased, but the edge can be improved and the edge doesn't stay as sharp as I would like it for too long. It's just the extreme beauty of the piece along with decent function and nice tactile feedback that makes it special to me. That's an unusual combo. It really doesn't seem to me to exceed a really good arkie by much if any. It just don't come from Arkansas! Slaughtering sacred cows is fun.

There's something you may want to watch for. If there is any convex beveling at a blades edge, then the stone just won't work. It will hone, but not at the edge. That's been a real uncertainty sending the stones out not being sure what compatibility issues may occur. Almost every razor I get has a long radius convex bevel from who knows what treatment. Takes a while for me to reprofile them. That's probably a real strength for you guys with coticules, fast bevel setting. Anyway, if you think it's happening with a blade, you might try a layer or 2 of tape and see if it fixes. It would be very illuminating if it did.

Oh yeah.... I never tried the polished side of that wood you have. No idea what it does. With any luck it may serve you.

 

[xMackx]

Interesting, I didn't know petrified wood can make a decent whetstone. Jeff you're doing a great job as the most ambitious of us. I'm slowly collecting tools, so my progress is slow because I'm between jobs. I really want to buy a small stone saw and will when I have the cash. In between my experiments I'm trying to become of use by finding information. I have found that my state has had whetstone quarries in several places and all the abrasives in our natural stones are quartzite and Iron oxide mainly. Wonder if there could be a way to mill my own abrasive down to preferred micron size for synthetic whetstones. This next Summer I plan to build an outdoor kiln and a small forge.

 

[Pkrankow]

I can tell you about bevel setting on a coticule. I got a Naniwa chosera 1k because I got tired of it, however I have taken a razor from breadknifed to shave ready on a single coticule...over the course of over 4 hours. On my larger coticule I can reset a worn but still barely shave ready blade and take it through finishing in about an hour.

If you say this petrified wood will end up not a finisher then I will play with it a little differently. I still intend to pit it against a coticule. The petrified wood did not provide a poor quality shave, just not what I wanted. If the only finisher I had was this then I *could* live a happy man...but for HAD.

Phil

 

[Nobody]

I can tell you about bevel setting on a coticule. I got a Naniwa chosera 1k because I got tired of it, however I have taken a razor from breadknifed to shave ready on a single coticule...over the course of over 4 hours. On my larger coticule I can reset a worn but still barely shave ready blade and take it through finishing in about an hour.

If you say this petrified wood will end up not a finisher then I will play with it a little differently. I still intend to pit it against a coticule. The petrified wood did not provide a poor quality shave, just not what I wanted. If the only finisher I had was this then I *could* live a happy man...but for HAD.

Phil

Phil, the pet wood is yours and you can use it any way you wish! What the ultimate resolution is for the stone is unknown to me. My expectation is that it will likely get finer with use up to some currently unknown level. Like you, I could live with the edge it produces, but prefer a little more sharpness. In time the stone may do just that. That's the long term aspect of the enterprise. Experiment! Enjoy! Go ahead and torture the little booger!

Interestingly, by your description, I may not be going as slow as expected. Having never dealt with one, the impression was that coticules were much faster than you describe. Mistaken impression on my part! Prompted by a remark Gamma made, I tried an experiment with lizard stone this evening. Using fairly heavy pressure I attempted to set a bevel. It worked much faster than I expected and much faster than with a coarse arkie I usually use with a much nicer looking bevel to boot. It took half an hour more or less, but it was a factory edge on a NOS razor. If that repeats with others, then I may have misanticipated that stone. More likely, the stone will just be polished and finer. That's what normally happens... except when it doesn't.

@Mack: Yes, the petrified wood does ok so far, again not the apex of edge refinement, but consistently serviceable and irritation free for me. Better if there is some edge treatment beyond it. How the stone will develop with use is too early to tell. I had to lap that one completely, but it didn't go coarse like some stones seem to. I'm trying to get some more pieces of that to pass around. It's a setup step for a finer stone, or so it seems. So at least *some* pet wood can be used. A lot of the pet wood out there has bad inclusions/cracks or are more agatized. Agate is still an unknown, being a different crystalline structure than jasper. The waves in the ocean jasper appear to be translucent/white agate. Stuff can feel a little odd to hone across in some specimens.

Oh... and you are being too kind. I'm not so much ambitious, but I am just having a lot of fun with the hunting/experimentation aspects. If you enjoy something, you tend to do it more, right? Besides, look at your weather map. It's nice here, so I can get out and about. Wait til next summer when the desert tries to kill all life again. You guys will all be running around having a fine time and I will be holed up to escape the heat.

 

[danjared]

I have found that breadknifing can make subsequent bevel-setting work seem pretty slow. If I need to breadknife, I'll go to my low-grit Shapton GlassStones. But, even then, the work takes me quite a while. I'd love it if I could find a natural stone that were faster than that.

 

[PapaFish]

I have used the Lizard Stone for a few honing sessions. Using my normal honing practices, I have not been able to get past HHT1 and a barely passable shave. Jeff had suggested that I try a layer of tape to make sure the stone was making it to the edge, so even though I never use tape, I gave it a shot. 100 passes, no change... 200... 300... 500... Still has not progressed past HHT1... I considered a second layer of tape... I considered more passes... and then I remembered something... the very northern part of the stone (when laying to look like the state of Mississippi) seems to take more of a shine than the green body of the stone... so I did a bunch of very small circle strokes up and down the blade on the white, being sure to keep it just in that area. I had to rotate the hone to get the other side of the blade, but after just a few minutes of this, the blade was passing HHT2 on most of the blade. I wanted to keep going, but it was getting late... since I wanted to remove the tape and clean things up, I called this good enough. I stropped it up and shaved with it today.
The shave was markedly better than the last. MUCH less tugging (but with 5 days growth, there was definitely some). It did a great job in just one pass, but I decided I had to go ATG also. Like before, it seems to perform better ATG than WTG (and it could just be because my beard is so reduced...). I got a really good shave out of it, with very little irritation. I know I could have spent more time doing tiny circles, so I am thinking that the stone has more potential in it yet. I also spent a couple minutes lapping on the second side of the stone, and there will have to be more time spent to make a considerable dent. I think that one side will be used with pressure (to try to cut quicker) and the other side will be used very gently (to refine) then finish on the white layer.
Since I am not much for honing with tape, and the tape didn't seem to make a difference in the resulting edge, I will likely reset with my home depot slate tile and try progressing up... but not before I get a couple more shaves off it this way.
Final judgment on the stone will be reserved until I can max it out on the white layer (which looks like it could be similar to the white in the Ocean Jasper...).

 

[xMackx]

Sounds like you found the sweet spot with your stone Wyatt. Takes me a little while to figure out a new stone, I'm actually practicing different methods of honing on Jeffs mystery stone and my cnat. Someone told me they get better sharpening with there cnat without a slurry but that didn't seem to work out for me. I actually found a way of sharpening on a high end stone to get the bulk of the work done before refining the edge. I'll show the video below here. Works pretty well if you have a big jump in between grits.

the first video, there is a wealth of different methods on this site also.
http://www.coticule.be/home.html

 

[Nobody]

Wow! Excellent find Wyatt! I never even tried the edge material. Sounds like that may be 2 stones in one.... or is it 3? I'll have a post on that later. For now, there's something else to attend to.

It's time for you to meet Igor (EYEgore):



Igor is the warped product of the unholy union between 1/2 ounce Linde A(.3um AlO) and 3 ounces of cheap chinese 5 minute epoxy. The blessed event was very exciting, especially when the plastic mould started to melt down when exposed to Igors suddenly smoking hot, yet not solid body! A holistic birthing in water was hastily arranged (so I dropped it in a bucket of water as gingerly as I could).

Naturally, I need to do some lapping, but the result resembles a ceramic in appearance and sound when "thunked". The method seems imminently practical except for using 5 minute epoxy! If you get a large enough pile of the stuff it may make you think you have discovered tabletop fusion! Next go round I'll definitely be using the slower kind. The mould itself was a compartment area of a desk drawer organizer from the dollar store, American made too!

The method is also nothing new. Epoxy, urethanes and all manner of stuff were used in the early artificial stones. The exact formulas are long gone or locked away in corp vaults but the principles are simple.

If there is any sort of failure to hone, then I will report it, but it looks to be usable for the intended purpose which would be a really fine polisher on the order of a fine diamond spray but a lot slower.

If anyone wants to try the experiment, then Linde A is fairly pricey at about $10 an ounce. I've seen a slightly coarser AlO @.5um for around $10/lb but can't find any links at the moment. There's also a similarly sized saphire powder at about the same size as Linde A. Of course, there is no reason coarser abrasives can't be used.

 

[xMackx]

Looks like you can fix Igor's hump, doesn't look half bad. Yeah you can't use anything plastic with just about any flammable liquid, learned that the hard way also. I have a chart that shows the different ratios for aluminum oxide and epoxy. But yeah the 5 minute stuff sets up way to fast for it to settle, I don't know how you did it. Glad to see someone else try a synthetic whetstone other than me. Mine weren't too bad for a first time, they work. Still need refining the method tho. This chart made me happy and lucky to find.

 

[Nobody]

Mack, the only thing that held me up was finding a suitable mould. Originally I wanted to use the top from something like a ceramic butter dish. Strangest thing is I couldn't find any! Just how far has our little civilization fallen? But anyway, the organizer has bench stone sized compartments as well!

Nice chart, by the way. Wish I had had it on hand. Seems like it worked ok doing it by eye anyway. Linde A is really quite bulky for its weight.

 

[PapaFish]

The way I read Mack's chart, I think Igor is off the chart... Going by weight, 1/2 ounce of Linde A and 3 ounces of Epoxy would put him over the 90/10 ratio, since his epoxy weight is 6 times that of the abrasive. I seem to recall that higher abrasive content gives faster cutting action, higher adhesive content gives a harder stone. This would mean that Jeff likely created a very hard, very slow cutting stone. Don't be surprised if Igor takes some time to see results. I seem to remember another guy saying that the 50/50 volume worked well for him, and the 20/80 was very fast cutting (but quite soft). I think the low epoxy ratios are also rather dry and harder to mix. Think about what would happen if you tried to mix 2tbsp of oil into 3 cups of flour... it's hard to get even. I have thought about how I would do epoxy, or any two part really... I would mix the epoxy with the abrasive, then (separately) mix the hardener with the abrasive, making sure that both parts get mixed well. When both parts are mixed well, THEN mix the two together well and the epoxy and hardener can work their magic without fear of it hardening before things get mixed thoroughly.

 

[xMackx]

From a really old book somewhere...

 

[Nobody]

Now that is interesting.... What's next, strawberry flavored Jello carborundum stones? If your razor doesn't get sharp you can always eat the stone as a consolation!

@ Papafish: Yep, right under the bottom of the chart but you don't expect anything that fine to work fast anyway. The actual volume of the Linde (uncompressed) was nearly equal to the epoxy and it was interesting getting it into the resin before adding the activator.

Incidentally, there are 2 versions of aluminum oxide. The synthetic is rather soft, the one I used is 9 on the mohs scale. If it works at all I will be satisfied the basic idea can be done by anyone at their kitchen table.

 

[PapaFish]

My daughter and I watched a special on life in Yosemite National Park (3 parts actually). During particularly cold snowy winters, the bison are driven from the prairies to the hot springs area where the snow is melted by the intense heat from underground. No bison go here if they can help it, as the grasses have high silica content, and wear their teeth prematurely. I thought this was interesting, but don't think I will be taking hot springs grasses and trying to convert them into hones...

 

[Hammertime1]

In the military we used a red type epoxy to repair aircraft reminded me of bonds except about as strong as titanium. That stuff was wicked. I don't think it ever wa releases to the civilian market but you could make one hard hone out of something like that. Has me wishing I had some because some if it's characteristics seem perfect. It was super hard, dried very smooth and glossy. I think it was one we could cover with a plastic and remove after it dried to make it smoother. It has been a long time since I have played with composites and repair so that part might be wrong.

 

[Pkrankow]

Polyester resin cures better starved of air (this is the cheap stuff with a small tube of liquid hardener and available anywhere), which may be moot, but would make initial lapping easier. Air prevents the surface from curing so it stays gummy. Products that are "waxed" contain "liquid paraffin" which is a very refined odorless kerosene to seal the surface from air as the oil gets driven out by the reaction, and carried by the acetone that thins the resin.

There are a number of high quality resins available, I have a preference for West System because I have used it a number of times. The "slow" or "extra slow" or "special coating" varieties of West System lend themselves to casting blocks because the long curing time prevents overheating, bond reduction or failure, and autoignition (why yes, I have set fire to a mixed batch of resin by not working fast enough)

System 3 is considered an excellent premium product that is comparable to West System, but I have not used it myself. Epiglass by Interlux is comparable as a premium product, but I have not used that product either.

I am not sure "hard" is the best property for the binder. Having the binder retain some flexibility would increase durability in case of dropping or other mechanical abuse. In all resin cases overheating will reduce the ultimate strength of the material because the product "burns" breaking chemical bonds and crosslinking that are forming during the cure. The bath in water was a good idea.

Phil

 

[Nobody]

Thanks for the reassurance Phil! I was feeling pretty stupid doing it, but it did seem to be going nuclear very suddenly.

I've been lapping on Igor and it's surprisingly hard even tho the mix of abrasive was a bit thin. The texture matches some .3um lapping film I have too and it looks imminently usable.

Do you have a link or name for a supplier for the resin you mentioned? It's looking like a worthwhile thing for special purpose stones to solve the odd need. Better and more controlled raw materials would be a "good thing"(TM).

Oh, and one day you need to tell the story of your flaming resin! Sounds cautionary.

 

[Pkrankow]

I have polyester resin (from Lowe's or Autozone or somewhere) it is made by Evercoat,and is a good product (and I have used their products as well, in fact I built a canoe with their polyester resin, a Wee Lassie II)

The cautionary tale is from repairing this said canoe as I holed the outer skin on one of my first times using it. I used West System 105/205 (fast) for the repair as it has a higher bond strength to existing cured resin than polyester resin has. I mixed up a largish batch in a plastic container (about 2 cups worth) and went to dump it on the cloth I had laid on the prepared repair area...but the cloth slipped, so I set the resin down and in the moments it took to get the cloth repositioned the pot of resin was already smoking(!!!) so I moved the resin pot away from my work and my house on the grass, went for a box to dump it out into and spread it out since the batch was spoiled when it started smoking. When I returned with a box, less than a minute later, it had already ignited.

West Marine is where I got my resin West System and Evercoat resins from for that project. I was working for West Marine at the time. (West System is not related to West Marine.) West Marine carries Evercoat and Interlux as well. Jamestown Distributors carries all four. Google them and check out their websites.

Polyester resin can be controlled for curing rate by the addition of the MEK peroxide hardener. For block batches reducing the hardener will create a slower cure, but be careful as there is a point that it will not completely cure due to not enough hardener.

Phil

 

[paco664]

there is a west marine 2 blocks from my house.....

 

[Nobody]

there is a west marine 2 blocks from my house.....

Well, what are you waiting for? Bet you have lots of fine Florida sand nearby too.