Having a coticule is like having a girlfriend. They're all awesome, but you have to take the time to understand what they like. Most will give you a happy ending if you treat them right.
Hard lessons in honing
- Thread starter sydres
- Start date
I had this same quest for quite a while. It turned out that once I got the hang of coticule honing, I could put a nice edge on a razor with almost all of my coticules. The only "magic" part is that I don't know what changed as I went from incompetent to competent at putting a razor edge on with a coticule. It happened during a lot of repetition, somehow.
I enjoy having all these coticules, though.
Same here, and only happened quite recently. Not exactly sure what changed but I'm not complaining.
But if you sent it out to be honed you would have missed out on the joy of victory.
From those of us still drowning and frantically looking for the coticule lifeline, thanks for stopping to wave!
Steve56
Ask me about shaving naked!
Coticules are like JNats, truly great ones for razors are maybe 2% of the lot.
I agree that "truly great" stones do happen. I have one JNat like that. It cost me far, far less than many others. Often enough, when I forget what stone put the edge on the razor I just shaved with, and want to know, because the edge seemed beyond perfect, I look it up and yup, it was that stone again.
But it's not a thing you can rely on finding, nor is it wise to chase. I can put wonderful edges on with a bunch of other JNats. None of my coticules is likely in your "truly great" category, but if I can make comfortable, keen edges on them, edges I love shaving with, what does it matter?
The better I get at honing, the smaller the gap between that "truly great" stone and the others.
Depends on what you want. If you want Jnat/Ark/Thuri level refinement? Yeah; probably in the 2% ballpark... maybe as high as 5%, but not much over that certainly... these are the stones I go after mostly; when I do buy a solo coticule these days... which to be fair is pretty rare... I like the ones I've got and haven't gotten spendy on a coticule in at least 2 years.
If you want a nice Salm/fine La Veinette/other quality vein finish (not as sharp as Thuri; but exceptionally smooth and easy to use)... if you stick to vintage stones: you're looking at; minimum 10% and I'd say closer to 25-30%... They're not THAT rare.
And I think this is what MOST coticule buyers are after.
If you're buying modern stuff; sorry... but the bar for a modern razor coticule simply is lower than the avg of surviving vintage coticules. I have stopped counting my coticules ages and ages ago... but I'm safely over 200 vintages bought and about ten moderns. There are plenty of good modern coticules out there; but there's a reason LV's and LL's get snatched up and requested constantly... they're just better/more consistently good.
Of my coticules I've owned...
Bottom 4 are vintages. (Including 3 I would say aren't good enough to finish a razor and one that was just very meh).
The next 6-8 are all moderns... (maybe a few more Meh vintages can get tossed in here. Mostly fast but a little subpar refinement glued combos.)
The next 100 or so are the remaining 3 (best) moderns (a Dressante, a LVein, and a LL) and a bunch of vintages. Maybe you could throw a modern la Verte I owned in here too... Shave was fine, I didn't like the feel under the razor... so I'd lean towards putting it in the previous group.
Then there is a pile of well over 100 vintages that beat any modern I've used.
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Hard lessons in honing:
How to read your tells;
How to consistently achieve your tells;
How different stones yield different tells, it’s relatively easy after that.
How to read your tells;
How to consistently achieve your tells;
How different stones yield different tells, it’s relatively easy after that.
- Thread starter
- #30
As a follow up I went on a spending spree for stones and purchased a Shapton ha no kuromaku 320, m15 12k, m15 5k (not here yet), King 6k s-1 cheap, king 8k g-1, suehiro cerax 1010 to replace my old king 1k/6k, diamond lapping plate, while none of these are high end stones my hope is they will help me make a predictable, consistent edge.
I proceeded to hone my Griffon 60 on the 1k to set reset bevel suddenly it became obvious that my bevels prior weren't any where near what I thought they were, but in the spirit of discovery I proceeded on to the 6k, 8k, and just about 12 strokes on the 12k. Stropped and shaved. Shave was decently smooth but felt harsh.
I then followed the advice to break out the microscope. In this case a vintage Southern Precision inspection scope with 60x magnification. Bevel was ugly chewed up and uneven though it appeared to have achieved an apex.
Back to the stones I went. This time I gently breadknifed the edge on the 6k and began honing. Slowing down I noticed that I wasn't skimming water across the whole edge, the blade was warped in the middle and I had never noticed it. I stopped honing and broke out the 320 grit and using the diamond plat I made a slurry and gave the blade hell, while this may not be technically correct I ground that sucker till it was more flatter, better, gooder!
Now when I set the bevel I didn't have as many issues though I don't believe I completely removed the warp things felt better and smother. I proceeded to the rest of the progression I did before. After honing put the microscope to the blade and examined the bevel, much better looking though many large stray scratches still appear.
Haven't shaved with it yet but maybe if my beard has grown enough then tonight. I do have one remaining issue, there seems to be tiny rust inclusions in the metal I say this because I removed a fair amount of metal and new ones appeared.
I proceeded to hone my Griffon 60 on the 1k to set reset bevel suddenly it became obvious that my bevels prior weren't any where near what I thought they were, but in the spirit of discovery I proceeded on to the 6k, 8k, and just about 12 strokes on the 12k. Stropped and shaved. Shave was decently smooth but felt harsh.
I then followed the advice to break out the microscope. In this case a vintage Southern Precision inspection scope with 60x magnification. Bevel was ugly chewed up and uneven though it appeared to have achieved an apex.
Back to the stones I went. This time I gently breadknifed the edge on the 6k and began honing. Slowing down I noticed that I wasn't skimming water across the whole edge, the blade was warped in the middle and I had never noticed it. I stopped honing and broke out the 320 grit and using the diamond plat I made a slurry and gave the blade hell, while this may not be technically correct I ground that sucker till it was more flatter, better, gooder!
Now when I set the bevel I didn't have as many issues though I don't believe I completely removed the warp things felt better and smother. I proceeded to the rest of the progression I did before. After honing put the microscope to the blade and examined the bevel, much better looking though many large stray scratches still appear.
Haven't shaved with it yet but maybe if my beard has grown enough then tonight. I do have one remaining issue, there seems to be tiny rust inclusions in the metal I say this because I removed a fair amount of metal and new ones appeared.
Best advice for new honers... what you think is light pressure, isn't light pressure. Stop, please...
I can see this with razor honing and to be honest I'm there too. I've got the finishing coticules I'll own until I die but those coarse, hard, very fast ones are few and far in between and that's all I look for now out now just for knives and tools. But I've sold off a lot of good finishing coticules this last year.
This is a good sumation of my "home it until it's right" philosophy. Though a few blades may die.
I think I'm still using too much pressure, but getting there. Been training on a soft 220 grit stone to repair a yanagiba I screwed up, and it turns out the stone will cut very nicely with just enough pressure on the knife to keep the edge aligned on the stone. I've taken off a lot more steel and a LOT less stone just wiping the blade back and forth. Might have to flatten the Naniwa 220 superstone I quit using because it wore too fast for me, and quit leaning on the knife!
Need to apply that to my razors -- I suspect hollow ground razor bevels will flex enough to keep the edge off the stone forever will too much pressure.
Random deep scratches are probably grit contamination, and those King stones are soft enough for a loose particle to embed in them. I have the same issue, need to clean up my stones and stone tank. Only takes one or two large particles to make a mess of a razor. I do like my King 6 and 8k stones though. The S-1 in particular seems to stay flat forever and cut very quickly with light pressure, and never loads up like some others I've tried.
Need to apply that to my razors -- I suspect hollow ground razor bevels will flex enough to keep the edge off the stone forever will too much pressure.
Random deep scratches are probably grit contamination, and those King stones are soft enough for a loose particle to embed in them. I have the same issue, need to clean up my stones and stone tank. Only takes one or two large particles to make a mess of a razor. I do like my King 6 and 8k stones though. The S-1 in particular seems to stay flat forever and cut very quickly with light pressure, and never loads up like some others I've tried.
Steve56
Ask me about shaving naked!
Here are some tips that might help.
Try hand held honing, it’s harder to use excessive pressure, and the stone will rotate a little to accommodate your stroke if it isn’t perfect.
Slow down. If you use slow strokes, the pressure will lighten unless you trying not to.
Use shorter strokes. Same as above, pressure twmds to become lighter.
Try using all tnree at once and see what kind of edge that you get.
Good honing!
Steve
