Making a hone

[Nobody]

its hard enough to eat diamonds...... this sounds interesting.... did you try the old fashioned wet/dry sandpaper yet?? that that is cool as hell BTW......

Haven't yet, thanks for mentioning it! It didn't eat the diamonds, I'm sure, but it removed them utterly and left smooth steel in its wake! The 300 grit plate I may have used twice before if ever. I'm a little freaked out by this event.

I'll try wet/dry tomorrow.

 

[paco664]

i went to harbor freight the other day and they had a diamond hone 200/300/400/600 for 12.99$........it will work great for small stones.... other than that i use sandpaper for everything....

 

[xMackx]

Since starting this thread in the past this was just a small hobby I intended on, but now I have made it my goal to make a compendium of knowledge on synthetic and natural whetstone making. I would like to thank my friends here that have helped make it more useful and your collected knowledge has been priceless. I am very glad to find others with my curiosity and passion for experimentation, or even just a simple interest. With things going the way they are maybe this thread will become a sticky someday as I would like to provide a wealth of information on whetstone making as you can't find it anywhere else but only in small pieces. And what better place than B+B.

 

[Pkrankow]

Wild thought while looking for a diamond lapping plate (and balking at the $200 price tag) lapping paste!

Permatex valve grinding compound is about $4 for 1.5 oz at most automotive places (Autozone, etc). dilutes with water, and could likely be run on any flat surface.

Thoughts? I do need to saw this petrified wood first, and will probably spend $100 on a tile saw because I will also be tiling 2 bathrooms in the near future.

Phil

 

[Nobody]

Wild thought while looking for a diamond lapping plate (and balking at the $200 price tag) lapping paste!

Permatex valve grinding compound is about $4 for 1.5 oz at most automotive places (Autozone, etc). dilutes with water, and could likely be run on any flat surface.

Thoughts? I do need to saw this petrified wood first, and will probably spend $100 on a tile saw because I will also be tiling 2 bathrooms in the near future.

Phil

I know from experience the valve lapping compound is a little coarse and wouldn't leave a fine finish, but it is usually silicone carbide and that is definitely hard enough. The question there is what will you be using along with it? If you get a saw large enough to cut decent slabs, then you might possibly use 2 slabs with the compound in between. EIther way, the method sounds like a possibility. Thing is, some careful saw cuts aren't that bad to begin with. If you go slow, the surface can be pretty good. Seems like a real good idea you have.

How's the wood look uncut?

 

[xMackx]

Found some invaluable knowledge on the Belgium coticule by actual scientists.

12. M'emoire sur la Structure et la composition Mineralogigue du Coticule, par A. Renard, S. J., Conservateur au Musee Royal d'Histoire Naturelle de Belgique. 44 pp. 4to. Brussels, 1877. (Mem. Cour. Acad. Roy. Sci., Belgique, vol. xlL)—The author of this memoir proves by his investigations, that the fine yellowish whetstone, making the best of hones for razors, which is quarried at Salm-Chateau, Lierneux, Sart, Bihain and Recht, in Belgium, consists of massive manganesian garnet. It occurs in beds four to forty inches thick, in a slate, as a part of the slate formation. The characters of the beds are described in detail in the memoir. The composition of the whetstone of Recht, according to Dr. von der Mark (1) and M. Pufal (2), is as follows:

SiO, TiO, A10, FeO, FeO MnO MgO CaO Na,0 K,0

1. 48-73 tr. 19-38 2-42 21-71 0-28 167 3'51 loss2-40, Ftr=99-88

2. 4652 1-17 23-54 1-05 071 17'64 1-13 080 0-30 2-69 HaO 3-28, CO, 004,

P,0, 0-16, S 018, organic matter 0-02=99-13

The slate, which is feebly metamorphic, is a damourite slate or. schist; and the potash of the analyses is attributed to the presence of this mica in the whetstone. In microscopic sections the rock appears to consist of very minute granules—more than 100,000 in a millimeter-cube, and they show sometimes the form of the rhombohedron. In view of the form and the composition the conclusion is reached that the whetstone is a compact manganesian garnet or spessartine. This is sustained also by the specific gravity, which is 3-22, according to M. Pufal.

The occurrence of garnet in the " phyllade oligistifere" of Recht, an associated rock, was previously recognized by Zirkel.

M. Renard examined whetstones of other localities without finding a similar constitution; among them, the whetstone of Arkansas, which proved to be wholly quartzose, as had been shown by the analysis of Owen. The memoir is illustrated by a colored plate of microscopic sections.

13. Report on the Minerals of some of the Apatite-bearing Veins of Ottawa County, Quebec, with notes on miscellaneous

Hocks and Minerals (1878); by B. J. Harrington, Ph.D. 52 pp. 8vo. Montreal, 1879. (Geol. Survey of Canada).—Dr. Harrington describes the apatite deposits of Ottawa County as occurring most commonly in connection with rocks, which consist almost exclusively of pyroxene, though quartz and orthoclase are often present, as also mica and minute garnets. When the pyroxene is the principal mineral the rock shows little trace of bedding, but is often much jointed and sometimes has the appearance of massive eruptive rock. Other rocks of the same phosphate region are gneisses, quartzites, and crystalline limestones. The apatite occurs in many cases in connection with pyroxene in what are regarded as true fissure veins. These veins have sometimes a banded structure, but in general are characterized by a want of regularity; the apatite crystals often show proof of having been broken and re-cemented. At some localities the apatite is chiefly in crystals, often of great size, "a foot or more in diameter and several feet in length, and weighing hundreds of pounds." The edges of the crystals are often rounded. At other localities, on the other hand, it is almost wholly massive, varying from compact or crypto-crystalline to coarse-granular; a friable saccharoidal variety is common. One mass of a sea-green variety is described which " as exposed measured nearly twenty feet across, and in the whole thickness was apparently free from other minerals with the exception of a few crystals of pyroxene and mica." The color of the mineral varies through many shades of green to sky-blue, red, brown, yellow and white. The specific gravity of a dark-green glassy crystal from the Grant Mine in Buckingham was found to be 3-2115.

A list of thirty species occurring in the apatite-veins is given, some of the most important of which are: calcite, quartz, pyroxene, hornblende, phlogopite, garnet, black tourmaline, titanite, zircon, orthoclase, scapohte. Of the associated minerals the most abundant is pyroxene, the commonest variety being an aluminous sahlite, but a light-colored variety is also common. An analysis of a blackishgreen crystal afforded:—

SiO, .41,0, FeaO, FeO MnO CaO MgO ign. a.=3-385 5128 282 1-32 9-16 033 23-34 1161 011 = 10003

Other varieties also occur, sometimes in crystals of large dimensions. The pyroxene is often partially or wholly altered to uralite. The change appears to have begun at the surface of the crystal and gradually extended inward; at the surface the hornblende prisms are mostly parallel to the vertical axis, within they run in all directions and are sometimes in radiating groups. One crystal had a center of glassy pyroxene (A), surrounded by a dull pale material (B), and this by an aggregation of hornblende (uralite) prisms (C). Analyses of these three portions afforded:—

SiO, A1,0, Fe,0, FeO MnO CaO MgO K,0 Na,0 ign.

A. 60-81 467 0-97 1-96 0-15 24-44 15-37 050 0-22 1-44=100-49

B. 50-90 4-82 1-74 136 0-15 2439 1527 0'16 0'08 1-20 = 10006

C. 52-82 3-21 207 271 0 28 1539 1904 0-69 0-90 240= 9951

The specific gravity was for A=3-181, for 6=3*205, and for C=3-003. The change in composition from A to C is seen to consist principally in the loss of lime and gain in magnesia, though there is also a loss of alumina and slight gain in alkalies.

Dr. Harrriugton also discusses the relations of the phosphate region of Ottawa County to the Apatite-bearing veins of Norway described by BrOgger and Reusch (ZS. G. Ges., xxvii, 646, 1875). There is a general similarity in the associated minerals and in other respects, but the apatite in Norway is described as occurring in an eruptive rock (gabbro), the crystals having been rounded by partial fusion. The latter part of Dr. Harrington's Report contains descriptions and analyses of a manganiferous calcite, of chrysolite, of some diorites near Montreal, and other points of interest. E. S. D.



Added composition and history:

The Lower Ordovician in the Caledonian Stavelot Massif (Belgium) contains a coticule member, probably Arenig in age, composed of red hematite-rich shales alternating with thin yellowish coticule beds. These coticules are fine-grained highly manganiferous metamorphic rocks mainly composed of spessartine garnet, mica and quartz. Similar rocks of about the same age occur in several localities along the Appalachian and Caledonian fold belts. The Belgian coticules are thought to have originated from marly sediments which had been deposited rapidly, probably by density currents, and in which CaCO[SUB]3[/SUB] had been diagenetically replaced by MnCO[SUB]3.[/SUB] During metamorphism, spessartine garnets were formed from this MnCO[SUB]3[/SUB] and mica. Manganese and iron are thought to have originated from volcanic-exhalative processes.

 

[Gamma]

I took the Ocean Jasper out again tonight. It does cut, more than I thought it was. It cuts slowly, but it cuts. What I can report is that after a few minutes on the slab, I was able to bring up an edge that passed my BBT (boar bristle test) - there was a definite slicing feeling but the cut was clean. I can't do an HHT test here, so I use old bristles from an old brush. I wouldn't shave with this blade right now for a few reasons.. one is that all the testing I've done with it has been done dry, the other is that the blade has chips and major pitting in the bevel. I don't have a razor that needs to be honed right now, which isn't so very surprising I guess. I'd like to start a new edge from a 1k Synth and see what happens after every grit.. I really should pick up a razor and dedicate it to this test....
Basically - I'm saying the stone shows good promise. It appears to be faster than an Arkansas... I would assume that 'could' be because the silica is crypto, rather than microcrystalline.. not sure.. could be a number of reasons I suppose. Oddly - in the Geological Survey of Arkansas #3, they refer to the Translucent Arkansas stone as being 'nearly' as fine as Chalcedony... which variant of Chalcedony they are referrning to escapes me though... I have to assume they mean a pure Chalcedony sample that's white and is comprised of a fiberous cryptocrystalline silica... not sure though. Jasper can be consdidered Chalcedony: but apparently, the silica isn't fiberous. Hmm...

 

[Nobody]

I took the Ocean Jasper out again tonight. It does cut, more than I thought it was. It cuts slowly, but it cuts. What I can report is that after a few minutes on the slab, I was able to bring up an edge that passed my BBT (boar bristle test) - there was a definite slicing feeling but the cut was clean. I can't do an HHT test here, so I use old bristles from an old brush. I wouldn't shave with this blade right now for a few reasons.. one is that all the testing I've done with it has been done dry, the other is that the blade has chips and major pitting in the bevel. I don't have a razor that needs to be honed right now, which isn't so very surprising I guess. I'd like to start a new edge from a 1k Synth and see what happens after every grit.. I really should pick up a razor and dedicate it to this test....
Basically - I'm saying the stone shows good promise. It appears to be faster than an Arkansas... I would assume that 'could' be because the silica is crypto, rather than microcrystalline.. not sure.. could be a number of reasons I suppose. Oddly - in the Geological Survey of Arkansas #3, they refer to the Translucent Arkansas stone as being 'nearly' as fine as Chalcedony... which variant of Chalcedony they are referrning to escapes me though... I have to assume they mean a pure Chalcedony sample that's white and is comprised of a fiberous cryptocrystalline silica... not sure though. Jasper can be consdidered Chalcedony: but apparently, the silica isn't fiberous. Hmm...

Well, that's a surprise. I didn't work much with that one, but did verify apparent nice edge polishing action, but it may have just been hitting the agate high points. And yes, the "experts" can be confusing in how they refer to the different variants of silica. There are apparently 2 crystaline growth habits, one actually crystaline and the other in which the molecules align themselves in a fibrous structure. Some even refer to novaculite as a chalcedony. Ah, the precision of science.

 

[Pkrankow]

Picked up the grinding compound. The guy at the parts store has a lead on a used tile saw so we will see what happens.

On my mechanical woes pulling an oil filter can make a world of difference, my hand and a wrench can fit behind my car engine without the filter in the way!

Forgot to take pictures of the rock today...well, was greasy busy near it pulling apart the lawn tractor and chasing a vacuum leak on the car.

Phil

 

[Gamma]

Well, that's a surprise. I didn't work much with that one, but did verify apparent nice edge polishing action, but it may have just been hitting the agate high points. And yes, the "experts" can be confusing in how they refer to the different variants of silica. There are apparently 2 crystaline growth habits, one actually crystaline and the other in which the molecules align themselves in a fibrous structure. Some even refer to novaculite as a chalcedony. Ah, the precision of science.

Geology can seem nebulous due to the inherent variables concerning the formation of the stones. This is why opals from Australia can be very very different from opals from Peru. Coticules from New England are also very different than the Belgian variety we use for honing. Look at the differences in some of the Thuringian stones.. I don't know if it's possible - but I would imagine that it 'could' be possible for a single vein or outcropping of Arkansas stones to have many many different crystalline structures throughout it.

Still - I've actually never read where anyone referred to an Arkansas as Chalcedony, but did read something about Turkish stones (also novaculite I believe) were once believed to be Chalcddony, but that was later dismissed. I've never owned a Turkey stone, but sometimes I feel that I'd like to try one. They were once alledged to be among the best whetstones available, but I think back in those days the 'testing' wasn't so very complete and/or comprehensive.
The reading I've done on this topic is limited, since most of all of this honing stuff is little more than a hobby. My family was once immersed in the world of mineralogy, but those days are long gone - sad, but true. I still have an affinity for stones of all kinds though - it's been years since I've held Jasper in my hand and it's a thrill to have this sample here and I'm thankful for that. To discuss, to even remember what to discuss about all of these things - now that's a treat that I would never have thought to have come from a forum about shaving.. it's truly remakable.

And just now I've read an article online, it clams that slurry on a waterstone can't remove metal... more science heard from... :0)

 

[PapaFish]

Mack has been banned from B&B for a comment he hat made in another thread. He has sincerely enjoyed his time here at B&B. I for one will miss his input and the great information he always came up with, and I am very sad to see someone with such passion go. He wanted everyone to know so nobody would think he abandoned this project/thread or B&B.

 

[PapaFish]

UPDATE I sent a PM to a moderator asking for an appeal. As a result, Mack's ban has been lifted! I would like to be the first to welcome him back! WELCOME BACK MACK!

 

[Pkrankow]

some fairly awful pictures...

About a half a dozen northern Ohio winters took a toll on this, there are a number of cracks, and I have 2 pieces now...

Phil

 

[Pkrankow]

some more views

Apologies about the small size, I needed to upload a few pics to a site that is not accepting larger pictures due to a failed upgrade, and forgot to reset the camera (well, phone)

Phil

 

[PapaFish]

That's real neat Phil! When I was a kid, my grandparents had a large piece of petrified wood. It had sat outside for a lot of years in Wisconsin, and I remember it being easy to remove pieces from it. I have been thinking about stopping by and seeing it the next time I am close by, and seeing how big the loose pieces are...

 

[xMackx]

Thank you Wyatt, I can't thank you enough. Good to know I have some real great friends here.

 

[Woodash]

Found some invaluable knowledge on the Belgium coticule by actual scientists.12. M'emoire sur la Structure et la composition Mineralogigue du Coticule, par A. Renard, S. J., Conservateur au Musee Royal d'Histoire Naturelle de Belgique. 44 pp. 4to. Brussels, 1877. (Mem. Cour. Acad. Roy. Sci., Belgique, vol. xlL)—The author of this memoir proves by his investigations, that the fine yellowish whetstone, making the best of hones for razors, which is quarried at Salm-Chateau, Lierneux, Sart, Bihain and Recht, in Belgium, consists of massive manganesian garnet. It occurs in beds four to forty inches thick, in a slate, as a part of the slate formation. The characters of the beds are described in detail in the memoir. The composition of the whetstone of Recht, according to Dr. von der Mark (1) and M. Pufal (2), is as follows:SiO, TiO, A10, FeO, FeO MnO MgO CaO Na,0 K,01. 48-73 tr. 19-38 2-42 21-71 0-28 167 3'51 loss2-40, Ftr=99-882. 4652 1-17 23-54 1-05 071 17'64 1-13 080 0-30 2-69 HaO 3-28, CO, 004,P,0, 0-16, S 018, organic matter 0-02=99-13The slate, which is feebly metamorphic, is a damourite slate or. schist; and the potash of the analyses is attributed to the presence of this mica in the whetstone. In microscopic sections the rock appears to consist of very minute granules—more than 100,000 in a millimeter-cube, and they show sometimes the form of the rhombohedron. In view of the form and the composition the conclusion is reached that the whetstone is a compact manganesian garnet or spessartine. This is sustained also by the specific gravity, which is 3-22, according to M. Pufal.The occurrence of garnet in the " phyllade oligistifere" of Recht, an associated rock, was previously recognized by Zirkel.M. Renard examined whetstones of other localities without finding a similar constitution; among them, the whetstone of Arkansas, which proved to be wholly quartzose, as had been shown by the analysis of Owen. The memoir is illustrated by a colored plate of microscopic sections.13. Report on the Minerals of some of the Apatite-bearing Veins of Ottawa County, Quebec, with notes on miscellaneousHocks and Minerals (1878); by B. J. Harrington, Ph.D. 52 pp. 8vo. Montreal, 1879. (Geol. Survey of Canada).—Dr. Harrington describes the apatite deposits of Ottawa County as occurring most commonly in connection with rocks, which consist almost exclusively of pyroxene, though quartz and orthoclase are often present, as also mica and minute garnets. When the pyroxene is the principal mineral the rock shows little trace of bedding, but is often much jointed and sometimes has the appearance of massive eruptive rock. Other rocks of the same phosphate region are gneisses, quartzites, and crystalline limestones. The apatite occurs in many cases in connection with pyroxene in what are regarded as true fissure veins. These veins have sometimes a banded structure, but in general are characterized by a want of regularity; the apatite crystals often show proof of having been broken and re-cemented. At some localities the apatite is chiefly in crystals, often of great size, "a foot or more in diameter and several feet in length, and weighing hundreds of pounds." The edges of the crystals are often rounded. At other localities, on the other hand, it is almost wholly massive, varying from compact or crypto-crystalline to coarse-granular; a friable saccharoidal variety is common. One mass of a sea-green variety is described which " as exposed measured nearly twenty feet across, and in the whole thickness was apparently free from other minerals with the exception of a few crystals of pyroxene and mica." The color of the mineral varies through many shades of green to sky-blue, red, brown, yellow and white. The specific gravity of a dark-green glassy crystal from the Grant Mine in Buckingham was found to be 3-2115.A list of thirty species occurring in the apatite-veins is given, some of the most important of which are: calcite, quartz, pyroxene, hornblende, phlogopite, garnet, black tourmaline, titanite, zircon, orthoclase, scapohte. Of the associated minerals the most abundant is pyroxene, the commonest variety being an aluminous sahlite, but a light-colored variety is also common. An analysis of a blackishgreen crystal afforded:—SiO, .41,0, FeaO, FeO MnO CaO MgO ign. a.=3-385 5128 282 1-32 9-16 033 23-34 1161 011 = 10003Other varieties also occur, sometimes in crystals of large dimensions. The pyroxene is often partially or wholly altered to uralite. The change appears to have begun at the surface of the crystal and gradually extended inward; at the surface the hornblende prisms are mostly parallel to the vertical axis, within they run in all directions and are sometimes in radiating groups. One crystal had a center of glassy pyroxene (A), surrounded by a dull pale material (B), and this by an aggregation of hornblende (uralite) prisms (C). Analyses of these three portions afforded:—SiO, A1,0, Fe,0, FeO MnO CaO MgO K,0 Na,0 ign.A. 60-81 467 0-97 1-96 0-15 24-44 15-37 050 0-22 1-44=100-49B. 50-90 4-82 1-74 136 0-15 2439 1527 0'16 0'08 1-20 = 10006C. 52-82 3-21 207 271 0 28 1539 1904 0-69 0-90 240= 9951The specific gravity was for A=3-181, for 6=3*205, and for C=3-003. The change in composition from A to C is seen to consist principally in the loss of lime and gain in magnesia, though there is also a loss of alumina and slight gain in alkalies.Dr. Harrriugton also discusses the relations of the phosphate region of Ottawa County to the Apatite-bearing veins of Norway described by BrOgger and Reusch (ZS. G. Ges., xxvii, 646, 1875). There is a general similarity in the associated minerals and in other respects, but the apatite in Norway is described as occurring in an eruptive rock (gabbro), the crystals having been rounded by partial fusion. The latter part of Dr. Harrington's Report contains descriptions and analyses of a manganiferous calcite, of chrysolite, of some diorites near Montreal, and other points of interest. E. S. D.Added composition and history:The Lower Ordovician in the Caledonian Stavelot Massif (Belgium) contains a coticule member, probably Arenig in age, composed of red hematite-rich shales alternating with thin yellowish coticule beds. These coticules are fine-grained highly manganiferous metamorphic rocks mainly composed of spessartine garnet, mica and quartz. Similar rocks of about the same age occur in several localities along the Appalachian and Caledonian fold belts. The Belgian coticules are thought to have originated from marly sediments which had been deposited rapidly, probably by density currents, and in which CaCO[SUB]3[/SUB] had been diagenetically replaced by MnCO[SUB]3.[/SUB] During metamorphism, spessartine garnets were formed from this MnCO[SUB]3[/SUB] and mica. Manganese and iron are thought to have originated from volcanic-exhalative processes.

Well, that's a surprise. I didn't work much with that one, but did verify apparent nice edge polishing action, but it may have just been hitting the agate high points. And yes, the "experts" can be confusing in how they refer to the different variants of silica. There are apparently 2 crystaline growth habits, one actually crystaline and the other in which the molecules align themselves in a fibrous structure. Some even refer to novaculite as a chalcedony. Ah, the precision of science.

Oy...

 

[Nobody]

It's looking interesting Phil! I look at it and see a pile of hones, or at least a lot of potential hones. Petrified wood has a permanent place in my arsenal.

 

[Alraz]

I am amazed at the number of responses.

Al raz.

 

[Pkrankow]

It's looking interesting Phil! I look at it and see a pile of hones, or at least a lot of potential hones. Petrified wood has a permanent place in my arsenal.

That's good. I hope your piece I have does not become a permanent part of my arsenal...I have not had time to hone since my first trial of it.

OTOH the edge seems to be holding up, but may not have been as refined as my usual edge because it seems to be pulling after only a few shaves. Maybe I did not spend enough time refining the edge prior to finishing. I plan to put the petrified wood edge fresh on this razor (a 5/8 Wester Bros. Manganese square point, bone scales), and one of my good 4/8 razors (another Wester Bros. Manganese, bone scales) I also plan to put coticule edges on my other two Wester Bros Manganese, a 5/8 neutered with bone scales, and a 4/8 with acrylic scales.

Yes, I like Wester Bros razors, but I think 4 is a good number.

Phil