Is pasted stropping 'stropping' or 'finishing'?

[Tanuki]

I am a dedicated user of a diamond pasted balsa three strop progression.

I also have a leather bench strop pasted with green polishing compound. I made it for wood carving knives. I tried it on a razor - never again.

What do you think - are pasted strops finishers that will override any other finishing hone? Or is it just stropping?

 

[silverlifter]

The paste is an abrasive, so for me is a finishing step.

 

[Rosseforp]

Well, you need to strop on a clean linen after the pasted strop, so it's a finisher.

~doug~

 

[Wid]

Finish

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

“I am a dedicated user of a diamond pasted balsa three strop progression.

I also have a leather bench strop pasted with green polishing compound. I made it for wood carving knives. I tried it on a razor - never again.

What do you think - are pasted strops finishers that will override any other finishing hone? Or is it just stropping?”


It can be both, years ago on another forum several of us stropped the same razor daily on pure chromium oxide to see when the edge would fail.

It did not, after a week or so all the stria was polished off the bevel and the edge keenness plateaued to a smooth keen shaving edge. After a year nothing changed and many experimenters got boarded and quit the experiment early.

So, one could strop on Chrome Oxide daily with no ill effects. Many of the “Knife honing Green paste” are not pure chrome oxide, but are Aluminum Oxide with some Chrome Oxide added, (Polishing Compound). They will quickly sharpen/polish an edge but will leave a harsh micro chipped edge.

And a Knife strop, or at least my knife and tool strops are nowhere as clean as my razor strops, my knife/tool strops are loaded with bits of steel burrs.

In my opinion if you strop on paste, especially Diamond or CBN, you do not have the edge of the final hone, it is a pasted edge. Diamond and CBN are very abrasive, so even a couple laps have altered the edge.

But does it matter if you like the edge?
No two of us has the exact same razor, stones, skin, beard type and experience. So, if it works for you, rock on.

 

[Tanuki]

In my opinion if you strop on paste, especially Diamond or CBN, you do not have the edge of the final hone, it is a pasted edge. Diamond and CBN are very abrasive, so even a couple laps have altered the edge.

This is the way my thoughts have been trending. And pasted strops as "finishing" is at 100% of the voting.

I am finally getting around to activating my natural finishers:
Norton trans ark
no-name black ark
mystery "jnat"
2 coticules

Learning these rocks and coming to my own opinion about the resulting edges means giving my balsa a rest.

 

[Rosseforp]

This is the way my thoughts have been trending. And pasted strops as "finishing" is at 100% of the voting.

I am finally getting around to activating my natural finishers:
Norton trans ark
no-name black ark
mystery "jnat"
2 coticules

Learning these rocks and coming to my own opinion about the resulting edges means giving my balsa a rest.

I have achieved some very nice edges going from coticule to trans ark as a finisher. I also have a small surgical black I convexed that works some real magic on pesky blades.

~doug~

 

[Tanuki]

convexed that works some real magic on pesky blades

Hijacked! I have been considering convexing my sidelined Pride Abrasives synthetic progression. Pesky blades are just piling up at the wrong end of my restoration queue.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Finish on a stone, clean strop, shave, clean strop, shave. Same shave.

Finish on a stone, clean strop, shave, pasted strop, shave. Not the same shave at all.

Easy test to do if you want to.

 

[Tanuki]

Finish on a stone, clean strop, shave, clean strop, shave. Same shave.

Finish on a stone, clean strop, shave, pasted strop, shave. Not the same shave at all.

Easy test to do if you want to.

I'll be doing that test with natural rock soon. The difference between my Naniwa 12k and the balsa progression is apparent to me. I hope natural finishers will produce even more easily perceived differences from the balsa.

The biggest differences I notice have been the shaves directly off the finisher without the benefit of a clean strop. Stropping rules.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Oh yeah... shaving without stropping is torture.

 

[Gamma]

I'm confused as to how anyone would think stropping on an abrasive compound would somehow be viewed the same as stropping on plain leather. Stropping on an abrasive is the same as stropping on a stone.

Abrasive compounds capable of sharpening steel, will affect an edge.
It's the same as moving from one stone to another.
Is a razor honed on 1k, 5k, 12k ever referred to as having a 5k edge? No.
If an edge was honed 1k, 5k, then stropped on a 12k, would anyone say it's a 5k edge?
No.

Even so, I don't view any of this ultra linearly.

For example - an edge started on a Coti for bevel set then finished on a Coti is one thing.
An edge started on a 1k synth, then progressed through finer synth grits to 12k, and then final-finished on a Coti can be a different thing.
I can and have set bevels on Coticules but prefer not to. So, when I am going to use a Coti I will probably use it for the mid-range to near finish or final finish.

I would not consider an edge built on a Coti but finished on Chromox to have a Coti edge any more than I'd consider an edge built on a Coti and then finished on a 12k Superstone to have a Coti edge.

Here in my house, an edge honed 1k-12k on synths then final-finished on an Escher is much different than edges built on a Coticule and then final-finished on an Escher.

Some might want to call either of them an Escher edge and in conversation I might do the same. But, the reality is that neither are JUST an Escher edge.

Similarly, an edge built on a Coticule but finished on Chromox is not the same as an edge honed 1k-8k on synths and then final finished on Cromox.

An edge pre-finished on a TOS but final finished on a Translucent Ark is not the same as an edge built on a Coti then final-finished on a Translucent Ark.

An edge built on synths to 12k, then pre-finished on diamond but final finished on a Translucent Ark is different than one finished the other way around or with a different compound or having been built up on a Coticule.

There are those that say the only thing that matters is the finisher but I am not one of those people. Here, my edges are all the sum of the parts and the groundwork speaks loudly to the finished product. The finisher will leave it's fingerprint of course but subtleties from the early work can matter. The degree to which it matters depends on whether or not I am paying attention to these things.

I will often use terms like Jnat edge, Ark edge, etc, but for me it's just conversational, and not intended to be anything absolute.

 

[Empire straights]

This is the way my thoughts have been trending. And pasted strops as "finishing" is at 100% of the voting.

I am finally getting around to activating my natural finishers:
Norton trans ark
no-name black ark
mystery "jnat"
2 coticules

Learning these rocks and coming to my own opinion about the resulting edges means giving my balsa a rest.

Do coticule>translucent Ark. If done properly it's is one of the best edges I've ever experienced.

 

[Rosseforp]

Do coticule>translucent Ark. If done properly it's is one of the best edges I've ever experienced.

This

~doug~

 

[SliceOfLife]

You'd think, Gamma... but I remember years ago getting into an argument here with someone claiming a norton 8k was a great shave.... went on for DAYS before they somehow offhandedly let slip that they had a chromox pasted strop they used...


"But that's stropping, it's finished on the Norton!" Or something like that they declared. These people DO exist.




To your greater point.... I have completely eradicated all evidence of the previous steps on a finisher before. I did it a few times when comparing high grit synths and trying to find the best shave I could get out of a synth... ie see if they ever could compete with good nats.... I called them "perfect" ie a "perfect sigma power 13k edge"... it is a lot more work than you would think... so in a practical world, I'd agree with your sentiment... but most good finishers and finishing technique does drive the significance of prior steps unique properties near zero to all but the most attentive user. The exceptions are usually pretty known... Coti to ark with some coti character left is probably the most known... Slurry jnat finish with just a tiny number of clean water passes after, stuff like that.

 

[Empire straights]

You'd think, Gamma... but I remember years ago getting into an argument here with someone claiming a norton 8k was a great shave.... went on for DAYS before they somehow offhandedly let slip that they had a chromox pasted strop they used...


"But that's stropping, it's finished on the Norton!" Or something like that they declared. These people DO exist.




To your greater point.... I have completely eradicated all evidence of the previous steps on a finisher before. I did it a few times when comparing high grit synths and trying to find the best shave I could get out of a synth... ie see if they ever could compete with good nats.... I called them "perfect" ie a "perfect sigma power 13k edge"... it is a lot more work than you would think... so in a practical world, I'd agree with your sentiment... but most good finishers and finishing technique does drive the significance of prior steps unique properties near zero to all but the most attentive user. The exceptions are usually pretty known... Coti to ark with some coti character left is probably the most known... Slurry jnat finish with just a tiny number of clean water passes after, stuff like that.

I think the coticule>final finisher imparts the "hybrid" edge smoothness it does because coticules shear off any teeth or flashing(unlike 99% of stones I've tried) and then your starting with a very different edge than normal going to the ark. On a translucent/black ark you won't get much of a scratch pattern so you'll know when the coticule is gone if you use a fine one. My favorite is coticule>one of "those" really fine bbws>an old hard ark or this one weird suspected llyn idwal(looks like a Grecian but really crystalline, soft, thin layers and flakey). The bbw will leave a near mirror finish and the effect from the hard ark becomes really apparent. Not that this is useful, but it's interesting. A side note: I've never looked at them under magnification save rifle scopes and bicentennial magnifying glasses. That point will matter greatly.

 

[papi]

Finish on a stone, clean strop, shave, clean strop, shave. Same shave.

Finish on a stone, clean strop, shave, pasted strop, shave. Not the same shave at all.

Easy test to do if you want to.

after the pasted strop, and not the same shave at all. Does that mean that it was not as good?

 

[Tanuki]

I'm confused as to how anyone would think stropping on an abrasive compound would somehow be viewed the same as stropping on plain leather. Stropping on an abrasive is the same as stropping on a stone.

Abrasive compounds capable of sharpening steel, will affect an edge.
It's the same as moving from one stone to another.
Is a razor honed on 1k, 5k, 12k ever referred to as having a 5k edge? No.
If an edge was honed 1k, 5k, then stropped on a 12k, would anyone say it's a 5k edge?
No.

Even so, I don't view any of this ultra linearly.

For example - an edge started on a Coti for bevel set then finished on a Coti is one thing.
An edge started on a 1k synth, then progressed through finer synth grits to 12k, and then final-finished on a Coti can be a different thing.
I can and have set bevels on Coticules but prefer not to. So, when I am going to use a Coti I will probably use it for the mid-range to near finish or final finish.

I would not consider an edge built on a Coti but finished on Chromox to have a Coti edge any more than I'd consider an edge built on a Coti and then finished on a 12k Superstone to have a Coti edge.

Here in my house, an edge honed 1k-12k on synths then final-finished on an Escher is much different than edges built on a Coticule and then final-finished on an Escher.

Some might want to call either of them an Escher edge and in conversation I might do the same. But, the reality is that neither are JUST an Escher edge.

Similarly, an edge built on a Coticule but finished on Chromox is not the same as an edge honed 1k-8k on synths and then final finished on Cromox.

An edge pre-finished on a TOS but final finished on a Translucent Ark is not the same as an edge built on a Coti then final-finished on a Translucent Ark.

An edge built on synths to 12k, then pre-finished on diamond but final finished on a Translucent Ark is different than one finished the other way around or with a different compound or having been built up on a Coticule.

There are those that say the only thing that matters is the finisher but I am not one of those people. Here, my edges are all the sum of the parts and the groundwork speaks loudly to the finished product. The finisher will leave it's fingerprint of course but subtleties from the early work can matter. The degree to which it matters depends on whether or not I am paying attention to these things.

I will often use terms like Jnat edge, Ark edge, etc, but for me it's just conversational, and not intended to be anything absolute.

In my dreams I will have enough skill and experience (let alone the stone inventory) to be able to sense a plethora of edges to this level of understanding.

Back in reality, I'm going to try to scratch the surface and develop some skill and sensitivity with the rocks I've got.

Random digression: my long departed mother habitually described any wealthy lady who made the newspapers as "Mrs. Gotrocks". I will never be @timwcic , but I'm feeling wealthy as I'm getting some rocks.

 

[Gamma]

You'd think, Gamma... but I remember years ago getting into an argument here with someone claiming a norton 8k was a great shave.... went on for DAYS before they somehow offhandedly let slip that they had a chromox pasted strop they used...


"But that's stropping, it's finished on the Norton!" Or something like that they declared. These people DO exist.

Well, I never said these people don't exist. I am all too well aware that they did exist and they do still exist but they were and still are wrong. I've butted heads with them too many times to count. They were wrong then and they are wrong now. Even so, I can't imagine thinking that way or engaging in semantics like that without having an ulterior motive. It's almost as if someone was trying to make the Norton 8k out to look like it was better than it ever could be for financial reasons or something along those lines.

. I did it a few times

Yah, if I strop on diamond paste for 250 laps on linen or whatever I will pretty much wipe out everything done before it. I've actually done this and it hurt. Forgetting that I'll never do that again, it wasn't what I was describing.
.
What I was talking about was that an Escher after a Coti is not the same thing as an Escher after a pure synth origin. Maybe if I spend 72 hours honing on the Escher the Coti work will be gone, maybe not. Whatever, it isn't going to happen. Yeah, I can sandblast an edge to remove convexity from a Coticule - sure, also not going to happen. For the larger part of the universe, a typical finishing process on an Escher is not going to remove a Coti fingerprint entirely. I don't see this needing to be identified by a hyper-attentive user. Maybe, if anything, all of this will be clearer to someone who actually does these comparisons regularly. Hypothetical theory only goes so far. And sure, the majority of people won't be doing heavy A/B testing. Without a good number of A/B test comparisons in hand, it's more like guessing than knowing. To me, the differences are plain as day. To me, going Coti to Escher is a Coti-Escher edge, not an Escher Edge. But that's not meant as a scientific analysis. And I might refer to it as an Escher edge, which I also don't mean to be a scientific analysis.
So I see my Crox after Coti edge being a Crox edge and I also know it will be different than my synth-Crox edge.
No one needs to agree with that, I'm just calling it how I see it.

 

[Rosseforp]

In my dreams I will have enough skill and experience (let alone the stone inventory) to be able to sense a plethora of edges to this level of understanding.

Back in reality, I'm going to try to scratch the surface and develop some skill and sensitivity with the rocks I've got.

Random digression: my long departed mother habitually described any wealthy lady who made the newspapers as "Mrs. Gotrocks". I will never be @timwcic , but I'm feeling wealthy as I'm getting some rocks.

Something tells me your dearly departed mother meant another kind of rocks

~doug~