Another P320 Mishap

[Curly Straight]

I've got mixed opinions about the whole P320 issue. I am a bit suspicious because all the events have either NOT been on video but involved officers, OR involved officers but the video is so bad we can't really tell what happened for sure and there's no real investigation into the mechanical chain of events. Cops are rarely gun folks, rarely check their firearms and holsters, do stupid **** because they're focused on other aspects of their jobs and also have, as a group, a huge number of man hours available with these pistols for things to go wrong regardless of whether it's the gun's fault or not.
I owned a P320, never had an issue. It had an aftermarket trigger so the whole recall wasn't a thing for me. It WAS, even with a factory trigger, a fairly light and short pull due to the fully cocked striker design. From my perspective, that's a higher risk situation for law enforcement. As mentioned, they tend to NOT check them regularly, get in lots of situations where debris and other crud can get into the holster or firearm over time, and do not use the military practice of carrying without a round in the chamber until a potential threat presents itself. While I might have issues with that military policy, I can certainly understand WHY they do it and it's probably kept more folks from getting hurt than the opposite. Military guards spend a lot of time standing around waiting and none if any actually shooting while on guard duty. The process of chambering then clearing is a high risk (statistically, compared to the rest of the time spent with the firearm just loaded and in the holster) activity. The military decided a long time ago that outside active combat it made more sense to carry condition three because young men DO make mistakes and if you minimize the potential consequences of mistake one or two, maybe it never involves paperwork and medical care or building/vehicle repairs.

I traded my P320 in on a Shadow Systems DR920, the series of unintentional discharges did play a role, but mostly it was trying to get better commonality of gear. That said, I do think that a half cocked striker like the Glock system is a better choice. I also support longer and slightly heavier trigger pulls than the Sig's mostly had. For a skilled user who checks his or her gear regularly and stays on top of things, no issue. Heck, I carry a 1911 more than anything else. But for a non gun person who is a lot more likely to be getting into a wrestling match or in and out of a car all day and generally not doing gun stuff, and then just puts the whole rig up at the end of the shift... Yeah, let's have one last built in safety measure or two. I'm not saying they need NYC triggers or something, but a short light trigger in a high stress situation or with lots of abuse over time, in the hands of a casual shooter? That's more risky than beneficial. Sorry to any LEOs who don't like that description, but it's true. The majority of you are lousy with a gun, it's just not your thing and that's fine, until it becomes a problem.

Glad you’re happy with the Shadow Systems GLOCK! The slightly improved trigger when compared to the original Glock (for much more money without altering the design regarding safeties), and not even close to the SIG P320 which uses a sequential series of internal safeties to ABSOLUTLEY prevent any accidental discharges. In the history of handguns, no pistol has had more ND’s resulting in injury or death than GLOCK. And when the internet BS “smoke clears”, the P320 will be exonerated. Thus far, every court case alleging P320 ND’s have been ruled in favor of SIG Sauer. It was the operator, not the pistol. And NONE of them have been settled out of court.

Curly Out

P.S. GLock was 20 years ahead of its time…40 years ago.

 

[Kentos]

When they are aimed at their target and ready to fire; and only when they are aimed at their intended target and ready to fire.

That has to be hard thing to do under stress. Like getting a gun pointed at you. I guess that’s where training and practice practice practice comes on.

 

[Kentos]

Glad you’re happy with the Shadow Systems GLOCK! The slightly improved trigger when compared to the original Glock (for much more money without altering the design regarding safeties), and not even close to the SIG P320 which uses a sequential series of internal safeties to ABSOLUTLEY prevent any accidental discharges. In the history of handguns, no pistol has had more ND’s resulting in injury or death than GLOCK. And when the internet BS “smoke clears”, the P320 will be exonerated. Thus far, every court case alleging P320 ND’s have been ruled in favor of SIG Sauer. It was the operator, not the pistol. And NONE of them have been settled out of court.

Curly Out

The ND’s from Glock are human in nature tho, correct? Especially since Glock was the first widely adopted striker fired pistols after revolvers and a totally different manual of arms.

 

[Curly Straight]

The ND’s from Glock are human in nature tho, correct? Especially since Glock was the first widely adopted striker fired pistols after revolvers and a totally different manual of arms.

You are absolutely correct. Negligent discharges are operator error, not a faulty design. Regardless of what or who pulls the trigger, the gun is supposed to fire. The SIG P320 CANNOT fire unless the trigger is pulled by some method.

Thank you for applying logic to this “BS” Internet bunch of ignorant gum-flapping!

Curly Out

 

[Acmemfg]

...and when all is said and done, yon pistoleros will purchase, cherish, and use the firearm(s) of their preference, because they can!
Their choices will be as valid as those of the next person regardless of the rationale behind said choice, few if any to be considered patently "wrong".
I shall ALWAYS prefer a hammer fired DA/SA pistol over a striker.
That's the proper choice....for me.
My current arsenal has an inventory of semi-automatic pistols which lists hammer fired sidearms over striker fired specimens of nearly 2 to 1. We won't even talk about revolvers here.
Point in closing...find a pistol you like. Buy it, enjoy it. Those unnecessarily critical your choice...ignore them

 

[Rob72]

That has to be hard thing to do under stress. Like getting a gun pointed at you. I guess that’s where training and practice practice practice comes on.

One of the features I really like on the Polymer80 frames is the small shelf where you index your thumb (if you're a thumbs forward shooter) and your index finger for the firing hand. Just a nice tactile reminder. You can add a dab of stippling in that area, fore and aft of the takedown bar, on an OEM frame.

 

[nortac]

I've mention this before, but perhaps it's worth mentioning again. A good drill for manipulation of a manual safety and trigger finger discipline for the 1911 and similar pistols. Start with the pistol in a low ready position with the thumb safety on and trigger finger off the trigger (in register position along the frame above the trigger guard), as you raise the pistol to the target and as the sights begin to cover the target, simultaneously flip off the safety and place the trigger finger on the trigger. Make the shot and return the gun to low ready, flipping the thumb safety on and placing the trigger finger back along the frame as the sights move off the target. Don't wait until the gun is already in the low ready position to do so, do it as soon as you begin to move the sights off the center of the target. Do this repeatedly. This can be done dry fire (don't really need to pull the trigger all the way to hammer drop in dry fire, just compress it) or live fire at the range (preferred). You may be surprised at how fast you can make this manipulation with practice. YMMV

 

[Acmemfg]

Speaking of which....it is range practice day. 50-100 rounds through each at 7-10 yards. These are all sidearms I carry at one time or another (along with some others) for defensive purposes.
Anything that needs to be shot at a distance more than that......
A different tool comes into play.

 

[cvixx]

Two kinds of accidents.

Preventable.

Non Preventable.

Was the Sig at Fault, or Operator?

I would say holster design. Way back in the 70s, when we carried wheel guns, had a friend just about blow his leg off. We used clamshells and were driving Mercs. He was the passenger officer. There was a gap between the seat and door frame. His holster, on a swivel, dropped into the gap and when he exited the vehicle, the grip was caught and twisted his pistol so the trigger was fire, which it did when he pushed down on the grip. Happened one or two times more and we changed holster design. Whittaker, the officer, stayed on and retired as a Detective Supervisor, so didn’t hurt his promotion possibility.

So, yeah, at times it is neither the pistol nor the operator.

 

[OkieStubble]

Yup. 1911 safety stays on until I'm putting my finger in the trigger guard.

Now with DA/SA push forward safety rather than swipe down the safety pistols I generally swipe safety off after holstered.

As soon as I can get my hands on the new Beretta 80X, I’ll get to practice thumbing the de-cocker up on a Double action hammer also.

I think it may just be the first double action hammered pistol I fall in love with.

 

[OkieStubble]

Glad you’re happy with the Shadow Systems GLOCK! The slightly improved trigger when compared to the original Glock (for much more money without altering the design regarding safeties), and not even close to the SIG P320 which uses a sequential series of internal safeties to ABSOLUTLEY prevent any accidental discharges. In the history of handguns, no pistol has had more ND’s resulting in injury or death than GLOCK. And when the internet BS “smoke clears”, the P320 will be exonerated. Thus far, every court case alleging P320 ND’s have been ruled in favor of SIG Sauer. It was the operator, not the pistol. And NONE of them have been settled out of court.

Curly Out

P.S. GLock was 20 years ahead of its time…40 years ago.

While I absolutely agree with all of this. I would like to add the caveat’s that if and when Sig’s P320 gets to be as popular and numerous in society as Glock? Their AD’s will be as numerous as Glock’s also? Why? Because just as you said, and I also said earlier; “99.9 percent of the time, it’s the operator, not the pistol.” If there was a possible way to record the history of the 1911 since it’s introduction in 1911? Would they beat out Glock in the number of AD’s?

And how many different brands of 1911 are out there?

I’m all about perspectives.

I also would bet money that the revolver would have more deaths by ‘Russian Roulette’ than any other type of handgun?

 

[jar_]

As soon as I can get my hands on the new Beretta 80X, I’ll get to practice thumbing the de-cocker up on. Double action hammer also.

I think it may just be the first double action hammered pistol I fall in love with.

On my 81 it's safety off while in the holster for DA first round. But mine does not decock; I need to drop the hammer manually so that gets done only after everything is resolved and I can do it in a controlled manner. Norm if I fire and it's in SA is simply put safety on and reholster in a traditional cocked and lock mode.

 

[OkieStubble]

On my 81 it's safety off while in the holster for DA first round. But mine does not decock; I need to drop the hammer manually so that gets done only after everything is resolved and I can do it in a controlled manner. Norm if I fire and it's in SA is simply put safety on and reholster in a traditional cocked and lock mode.

I have been doing a bunch of research on the new Beretta 80X.

I find it interesting, that while Beretta has allowed their new pistol to be placed in single action mode, it actually isn’t a ‘true cocked & locked’ mode? Not only can the trigger still drop the hammer while the safety/ de/cocker lever is up, but Beretta actually tells folks in the manual “do not carry in single action mode.’

They even say; “ it is not designed to be carried in SA mode?”

So while I like their new Cheetah, it puzzles the crap out of me why they would:

1. Allow a $1,000 pistol to be able to even have or go into SA mode if it’s not designed to safely do so?

2. For $1,000, shouldn’t it either be able to do SA also or design that de- cocker not to be able to move into an upward position for the hammer to be in full c0ck?

This sounds pretty stupid of them and not very ‘forward thinking’ if you ask me? I mean, what are they thinking?

 

[Acmemfg]

"1. Allow a $1,000 pistol to be able to even have or go into SA mode if it’s not designed to safely do so?

2. For $1,000, shouldn’t it either be able to do SA also or design that de- cocker not to be able to move into an upward position for the hammer to be in full c0ck?"

Isn't this basically what a CZ 75 does? DA in the first round and SA subsequently? No de-coking from SA mode?

 

[jar_]

I have been doing a bunch of research on the new Beretta 80X.

I find it interesting, that while Beretta has allowed their new pistol to be placed in single action mode, it actually isn’t a ‘true cocked & locked’ mode? Not only can the trigger still drop the hammer while the safety/ de/cocker lever is up, but Beretta actually tells folks in the manual “do not carry in single action mode.’

They even say; “ it is not designed to be carried in SA mode?”

So while I like their new Cheetah, it puzzles the crap out of me why they would:

1. Allow a $1,000 pistol to be able to even have or go into SA mode if it’s not designed to safely do so?

2. For $1,000, shouldn’t it either be able to do SA also or design that de- cocker not to be able to move into an upward position for the hammer to be in full c0ck?

This sounds pretty stupid of them and not very ‘forward thinking’ if you ask me? I mean, what are they thinking?

What amazes me is that anyone would buy a new $1000.00 pistol when there are a brazillion of the originals out there that sell in the $300-500.00 range.

This sounds pretty stupid of them and not very ‘forward thinking’ if you ask me? I mean, what are they (buyers and sellers) thinking?

 

[OkieStubble]

That has to be hard thing to do under stress. Like getting a gun pointed at you. I guess that’s where training and practice practice practice comes on.

To be real, chewing gum and walking at the same time is hard to do under stress. Especially if a bullet just invaded your personal space.

It’s not just hard to do, it’s hard to mentally wrap your mind around and even just start to get your thought processes on; “is this really happening?”

By the time that has even happened, in many cases, it’s already over. Someone has won and someone has lost.

And this is exactly why training and practice is so important. If an officer is in a deadly confrontation, he goes from doing his job, to defending his life in seconds?

Now imagine the civilian in a self defense action? They will actually go from just minding their own business to a life or death proposition in just seconds?

If that’s not intense, I don’t know what is? We talk about training here all the time. We talk about practicing here, all the time.

But you hardly ever hear us talk about conditioning here? Why is that? Because conditioning is the product of training and practice. Lots of concealed carry civilians train & practice; but do they ever get to the place of being conditioned?

I know lots of police officers who train and practice every now and then. But sadly, many also fall short of actually gaining a place of mental and/or physical and memory conditioning. Where they have the ability and chance ‘to just act’ and not think about it.

I can tell you, it takes quite a bit of training and practice to obtain and even more dedication to retain and maintain. Sadly, for most, especially civilians its just not an acquisition of reality in our everyday coming’s and goings. We just are not or cannot live and breathe that kind of conditioning everyday. Or can we? Does being mentally, physically, emotionally and psychologically ready, dependent on how many expensive high caliber training classes we notch on our belts? Or how many range trips and live ammo we put down range? Are there any other ways to accomplish a goal to being conditioned for the possibility of something that may never happen in your entire life?

Trust me, I know from personal experience; that only by the grace of God, that what didn’t kill you? Will make you stronger or force you to be conditioned by the end. If you survive.

But thankfully, most do not have to wait and learn the hard way. But it is a live by the sword, die by the sword mentality. If you are going to carry a sword, learn how to use it.

“ The body will never go where the mind has never been.” -Brian Germain

 

[Rob72]

I have been doing a bunch of research on the new Beretta 80X.

I find it interesting, that while Beretta has allowed their new pistol to be placed in single action mode, it actually isn’t a ‘true cocked & locked’ mode? Not only can the trigger still drop the hammer while the safety/ de/cocker lever is up, but Beretta actually tells folks in the manual “do not carry in single action mode.’

They even say; “ it is not designed to be carried in SA mode?”

So while I like their new Cheetah, it puzzles the crap out of me why they would:

1. Allow a $1,000 pistol to be able to even have or go into SA mode if it’s not designed to safely do so?

2. For $1,000, shouldn’t it either be able to do SA also or design that de- cocker not to be able to move into an upward position for the hammer to be in full c0ck?

This sounds pretty stupid of them and not very ‘forward thinking’ if you ask me? I mean, what are they thinking?

Beretta hasn't had anything "innovative" since the 92, and Sig isn't much different. They try reworking other's designs (generally unsuccessfully) and marketing them at a premium because of THE NAME.

IMO/IME for Sig the last cutting edge concept was the P250. If you have to have DAO, it can be REALLY nice, even compared to a well-worked 226. I don't know that they could have sustained production of a hammer-fired pistol, but with a couple of factory tweaks it could have been phenomenal. The modular FCU could have been the base for a whole multi-caliber armory, from .22LR to 12g.

 

[OkieStubble]

Beretta hasn't had anything "innovative" since the 92, and Sig isn't much different. They try reworking other's designs (generally unsuccessfully) and marketing them at a premium because of THE NAME.

IMO/IME for Sig the last cutting edge concept was the P250. If you have to have DAO, it can be REALLY nice, even compared to a well-worked 226. I don't know that they could have sustained production of a hammer-fired pistol, but with a couple of factory tweaks it could have been phenomenal. The modular FCU could have been the base for a whole multi-caliber armory, from .22LR to 12g.

Great post! I absolutely agree with you.

 

[Rob72]

To be real, chewing gum and walking at the same time is hard to do under stress. Especially if a bullet just invaded your personal space.

It’s not just hard to do, it’s hard to mentally wrap your mind around and even just start to get your thought processes on; “is this really happening?”

...or force you to be conditioned by the end. If you survive.

But thankfully, most do not have to wait and learn the hard way. But it is a live by the sword, die by the sword mentality. If you are going to carry a sword, learn how to use it.

“ The body will never go where the mind has never been.” -Brian Germain

Getting way OT here, but therein lies the basis of PTSD. When one is not conditioned, and survives a traumatic incident, the experiential logic is not complete and since one does not know HOW!! they survived, the mind replays, replays, replays, in an attempt to connect the dots. Of course, this applies whether you win or lose, as long as you survive, in that there will always be the fear that such an event could occur again, and we are again found not knowing how to successfully navigate the event.

Paraphrasing Musashi, it is a terrible thing to die by one's own weapon, its bearer not knowing how to use it.

 

[OkieStubble]

I've mention this before, but perhaps it's worth mentioning again. A good drill for manipulation of a manual safety and trigger finger discipline for the 1911 and similar pistols. Start with the pistol in a low ready position with the thumb safety on and trigger finger off the trigger (in register position along the frame above the trigger guard), as you raise the pistol to the target and as the sights begin to cover the target, simultaneously flip off the safety and place the trigger finger on the trigger. Make the shot and return the gun to low ready, flipping the thumb safety on and placing the trigger finger back along the frame as the sights move off the target. Don't wait until the gun is already in the low ready position to do so, do it as soon as you begin to move the sights off the center of the target. Do this repeatedly. This can be done dry fire (don't really need to pull the trigger all the way to hammer drop in dry fire, just compress it) or live fire at the range (preferred). You may be surprised at how fast you can make this manipulation with practice. YMMV

This is great advice! Which I follow!