Another P320 Mishap

[Acmemfg]

Recently saw a really good price on SIG P320 pistols (compact version). Figured I’d perhaps give one a try. Called a buddy whose agency recently switched to the P320 as a service sidearm. Bad news. Seems a young deputy (experienced, just young) was removing his vest, while doing so the pistol discharged while within the holster. Round entered at the upper thigh and wound up in his ankle; it’s still there. Uncertain if his leg will ever heal.
SIG personnel came down. They said the discharge was probably due to a pen falling into the holster while the deputy was taking the vest off! Huh?? The sheriff‘s staff investigating the instance aren’t buying that. Anyway, the P320 is on the way out. Rightfully so I think.
Needless to say, I passed on buying the P320, price notwithstanding. Went with an HK.
Considering putting up my P365 until I can exercise some due diligence to see if similar malfunctions are an issue with this firearm as well. The documented mishaps with this pistol are disturbing. Sad…I’m a fan of SIG firearms. I’ve owned/carried the DA/SA versions (P220, P229) for years. Never a problem.

 

[nortac]

@Acmemfg , what due diligence on your P365 are you planning on doing? I've got over 1.5K rounds through mine. I'm sure if you look hard enough you can find something that went wrong with just about any firearm.

 

[Kentos]

Lots of people on both sides of the issue. All we can do is pick a side and make your decisions on that.

 

[OkieStubble]

While I have seen documented issues with the Sig P320. Most, if not all; have been with the earlier iterations from years ago when the P320 first came out and the military adoption of it.

However, since then? Sig Sauer has come out with the X models and I haven’t seen or heard anything about the more popular Sig P320X?

Most Sig purchases now; are some type and form of the modern X model? I never did like the ergonomics of the grip frame from the original P320.

Sig also had some teeth cutting issues with their earlier models of P365, but those were reliability issues and not misfires? I put over 2,500 rounds thru my P365 before I sold it; and there wasn’t even the slightest glitch or hiccup from it shooting all kinds and brands of factory loads. And I would like to mention, I did all of that without cleaning it?

When I finally cleaned it in order to sell it, it was absolutely filthy! If that’s not a testament to quality and reliability, I don’t know what is! And I’m a Glock fanboy! Us Glock guys love to crap all over Sig when we can!

But it just didn’t happen….

 

[KW Driver]

there's video of the ND, and breakdowns of it. the pistol wasn't properly seated in the holster, he leaned over to grab the legs of a cuffed dude, as he came up the grip of the pistol contacted the duty belt of the cop on dude's left arm, the pistol ND'd, and as he stood up, the pistol was fully seated in the holster, retention status unknown by me. and I think it was a Safariland. I buy some kind of obstruction onto the trigger this time.

 

[Acmemfg]

My P365 (1st generation) has been perfect so far. I really don’t have any qualms but I am curious as to what (if any) serious malfunctions may have been recorded. Hence…due diligence vs. witch hunting is more what I’m inclined to think here.
The P320 issues are many and disturbing. The most recent one to which I earlier referred is not necessarily a public matter at this time. At the onset, there is NO indication the deputy was in any way at fault. It seems SIG‘s attempt at rationalizing this incident is a tad lame. That too is of concern. The pistol in question was issued only recently by the agency. Methinks it had to be of recent build.
The only dog (if any) I have in this fight is to attempt to determine what, if any, concerns I should have about any pistol I choose to carry…be it a SIG, Glock, S&W, Colt, HK, or Mattel. I think that’s prudent.

 

[Champion of Capua]

If you already have a P229, may I ask why you are looking at a P320C? I ask because if you update your P229 with just a few small things (Superstrut & SRT), you might not want another compact. BTW, I am a fan of the P320 platform as well, but the P220 SA/DA series with a few tweaks is second to none. Here is a pic of my P320C & P229 for scale

 

[DesertIguana]

Two kinds of accidents.

Preventable.

Non Preventable.

Was the Sig at Fault, or Operator?

 

[OkieStubble]

My P365 (1st generation) has been perfect so far. I really don’t have any qualms but I am curious as to what (if any) serious malfunctions may have been recorded. Hence…due diligence vs. witch hunting is more what I’m inclined to think here.
The P320 issues are many and disturbing. The most recent one to which I earlier referred is not necessarily a public matter at this time. At the onset, there is NO indication the deputy was in any way at fault. It seems SIG‘s attempt at rationalizing this incident is a tad lame. That too is of concern. The pistol in question was issued only recently by the agency. Methinks it had to be of recent build.
The only dog (if any) I have in this fight is to attempt to determine what, if any, concerns I should have about any pistol I choose to carry…be it a SIG, Glock, S&W, Colt, HK, or Mattel. I think that’s prudent.

Of your list, doesn’t a gold halo come in the case with every Glock?

 

[OkieStubble]

Two kinds of accidents.

Preventable.

Non Preventable.

Was the Sig at Fault, or Operator?

I’m all about blaming the gun, especially when it’s not a Glock. Being a biased fan boy and all. But 99.9% of the time? It’s the operator.

Doesn’t mean the operator was stupid or careless or anything like that. Humans are fallible; and none of us are above making a mistake even once in our lifetimes. Especially when operating machinery, whether that be a vehicle accident or firearms.

It’s why they are called; “accidents.” Because that’s what we people do; “we have them.” Sure, vehicle operators are insured and the vehicle itself gives us a certain amount of protection from other operators bloopers.

This is why firearms safety and focus is so important. An unintentional fired bullet, has no discretion for race, religion or creed. It doesn’t care if it was fired intentionally, accidentally or from pure stupidity and lack of moral competency.

The decade I spent training in the academy we had a no tolerance policy for AD’s period. No matter the rhyme or reasons or the who’s, what’s and why’s. If a cadet had an unintended discharge; they were out. Right then and right there.

No questions asked; no explanations necessary.

 

[Acmemfg]

@Champion of Capua
Collecting firearms of interest to me has been a pastime for many years. Many of the arsenal are indeed similar.
The passing interest I had in the P320 was nothing more than that. It looked like a nice pistol to add to the collection. I decided, all things considered, to buy a HK P2000 instead.
I agree that the P220 (shown here with night sights and a short reset trigger) surely is a most worthy member of the group. I truly enjoy carrying my P229 as well. There is plenty of room for both.
@DesertIguana
Who is at fault here is the key question; of that there is no doubt. But something to consider….
is it the “best” idea to produce a firearm (which has such a low tolerance for any sort of handling miscue) for use by police in an everyday capacity as well as civilians who may or may not have the firearms handling skills and aptitude they should ideally produce in a perfect world?
Could/should Sig Sauer engineer their product to be just as effective but less prone to malfunction?
Now that’s yet another point to discuss in a spirited fashion I’d bet

 

[OkieStubble]

A pistol could have a combination lock, thumb safety and high tech retina scanner.

A fallible human will still find a way to accidentally discharge it. Civilian or police officer withstanding.

22.1 million legally concealed permit holders, did not have an accidental discharge today.
No need to go re-designing our favorite pistols because of a single police officer today.

 

[Rob72]

Probably not the pistol.

I will say, if I went through 180 seconds of rough & tumble with someone, and did not draw my firearm, at the soonest opportunity, I would unholster, clear, reseat the mag & reholster, for this very reason. You just don't know what can be jammed where when you rassle. This is a special concern with striker-fired guns.

You don't hear much about it, since almost no one carries revos on duty anymore, and the internet is such a recent "event", but it wasn't terribly uncommon for armorers to find Smiths & Colts locked up at annual qualifications because officers carry their pistols so much more than use them, and some officers never checked. Drop the gun in the holster & leave it there. Take your duty belt off at night, put in on in the morning, repeat ad nauseum. Sand, small gravel, rust, all sorts of crap. Less spectacular than NDs, but ...

 

[Champion of Capua]

You have a very nice lineup of handguns and revolvers . As a guy that also appreciates many different platforms, I would recommend the purchase of a P320C if you take advantage of its modularity. Looking at the guns you have posted, I noticed you haven’t tinkered too much with them: aftermarket triggers, stippling, extended slide releases….. I feel one of the best benefits of the P320 platform is its modularity of easily swapping out the FCU, frames and slides. You can buy a used base P320 and customize it to your specific needs with OEM parts and not just aftermarket (to me that’s important). If you don’t like the X-Frame, swap it out for a Wilson Combat or even a Polymer80 frame, whichever feels and functions better for you. You don’t have to accept the way a gun comes out of the box anymore.

 

[OkieStubble]

You have a very nice lineup of handguns and revolvers . As a guy that also appreciates many different platforms, I would recommend the purchase of a P320C if you take advantage of its modularity. Looking at the guns you have posted, I noticed you haven’t tinkered too much with them: aftermarket triggers, stippling, extended slide releases….. I feel one of the best benefits of the P320 platform is its modularity of easily swapping out the FCU, frames and slides. You can buy a used base P320 and customize it to your specific needs with OEM parts and not just aftermarket (to me that’s important). If you don’t like the X-Frame, swap it out for a Wilson Combat or even a Polymer80 frame, whichever feels and functions better for you. You don’t have to accept the way a gun comes out of the box anymore.

That Wilson Combat frame is just plain sexy!

 

[Champion of Capua]

That Wilson Combat frame is just plain sexy!

For medium sized hands like mine, it’s a huge improvement as well.

 

[Remy]

I've got mixed opinions about the whole P320 issue. I am a bit suspicious because all the events have either NOT been on video but involved officers, OR involved officers but the video is so bad we can't really tell what happened for sure and there's no real investigation into the mechanical chain of events. Cops are rarely gun folks, rarely check their firearms and holsters, do stupid **** because they're focused on other aspects of their jobs and also have, as a group, a huge number of man hours available with these pistols for things to go wrong regardless of whether it's the gun's fault or not.
I owned a P320, never had an issue. It had an aftermarket trigger so the whole recall wasn't a thing for me. It WAS, even with a factory trigger, a fairly light and short pull due to the fully cocked striker design. From my perspective, that's a higher risk situation for law enforcement. As mentioned, they tend to NOT check them regularly, get in lots of situations where debris and other crud can get into the holster or firearm over time, and do not use the military practice of carrying without a round in the chamber until a potential threat presents itself. While I might have issues with that military policy, I can certainly understand WHY they do it and it's probably kept more folks from getting hurt than the opposite. Military guards spend a lot of time standing around waiting and none if any actually shooting while on guard duty. The process of chambering then clearing is a high risk (statistically, compared to the rest of the time spent with the firearm just loaded and in the holster) activity. The military decided a long time ago that outside active combat it made more sense to carry condition three because young men DO make mistakes and if you minimize the potential consequences of mistake one or two, maybe it never involves paperwork and medical care or building/vehicle repairs.

I traded my P320 in on a Shadow Systems DR920, the series of unintentional discharges did play a role, but mostly it was trying to get better commonality of gear. That said, I do think that a half cocked striker like the Glock system is a better choice. I also support longer and slightly heavier trigger pulls than the Sig's mostly had. For a skilled user who checks his or her gear regularly and stays on top of things, no issue. Heck, I carry a 1911 more than anything else. But for a non gun person who is a lot more likely to be getting into a wrestling match or in and out of a car all day and generally not doing gun stuff, and then just puts the whole rig up at the end of the shift... Yeah, let's have one last built in safety measure or two. I'm not saying they need NYC triggers or something, but a short light trigger in a high stress situation or with lots of abuse over time, in the hands of a casual shooter? That's more risky than beneficial. Sorry to any LEOs who don't like that description, but it's true. The majority of you are lousy with a gun, it's just not your thing and that's fine, until it becomes a problem.

 

[dojpros]

As I am such a Glock Boi with a bit of 1911, I have been disinclined to go down any other rabbit holes because for me every new platform is 2 gun/12 magazine/4 holster party.

The collections of anecdotes re the 320 would be one more "reason" to stand pat and spend that money on ammo/training and putting more RDSs on the fleet and/or buying Gen 5 guns to augment my Gen 3 ones.

If I was not a Glock fan, I would be more inclined to 2.0 SW M&P, particularly if I could source the from the factor direct milled for an ACRO guns.

YMMV Greatly

 

[OkieStubble]

I've got mixed opinions about the whole P320 issue. I am a bit suspicious because all the events have either NOT been on video but involved officers, OR involved officers but the video is so bad we can't really tell what happened for sure and there's no real investigation into the mechanical chain of events. Cops are rarely gun folks, rarely check their firearms and holsters, do stupid **** because they're focused on other aspects of their jobs and also have, as a group, a huge number of man hours available with these pistols for things to go wrong regardless of whether it's the gun's fault or not.
I owned a P320, never had an issue. It had an aftermarket trigger so the whole recall wasn't a thing for me. It WAS, even with a factory trigger, a fairly light and short pull due to the fully cocked striker design. From my perspective, that's a higher risk situation for law enforcement. As mentioned, they tend to NOT check them regularly, get in lots of situations where debris and other crud can get into the holster or firearm over time, and do not use the military practice of carrying without a round in the chamber until a potential threat presents itself. While I might have issues with that military policy, I can certainly understand WHY they do it and it's probably kept more folks from getting hurt than the opposite. Military guards spend a lot of time standing around waiting and none if any actually shooting while on guard duty. The process of chambering then clearing is a high risk (statistically, compared to the rest of the time spent with the firearm just loaded and in the holster) activity. The military decided a long time ago that outside active combat it made more sense to carry condition three because young men DO make mistakes and if you minimize the potential consequences of mistake one or two, maybe it never involves paperwork and medical care or building/vehicle repairs.

I traded my P320 in on a Shadow Systems DR920, the series of unintentional discharges did play a role, but mostly it was trying to get better commonality of gear. That said, I do think that a half cocked striker like the Glock system is a better choice. I also support longer and slightly heavier trigger pulls than the Sig's mostly had. For a skilled user who checks his or her gear regularly and stays on top of things, no issue. Heck, I carry a 1911 more than anything else. But for a non gun person who is a lot more likely to be getting into a wrestling match or in and out of a car all day and generally not doing gun stuff, and then just puts the whole rig up at the end of the shift... Yeah, let's have one last built in safety measure or two. I'm not saying they need NYC triggers or something, but a short light trigger in a high stress situation or with lots of abuse over time, in the hands of a casual shooter? That's more risky than beneficial. Sorry to any LEOs who don't like that description, but it's true. The majority of you are lousy with a gun, it's just not your thing and that's fine, until it becomes a problem.

Excellent post. As a retired LEO, I don’t really see anything in your post to disagree with.

Let’s talk striker fired pistol designs and their internal safeties, or lack thereof; and the varying design differences and what would be the proclivities for AD’s with these different brands.

Glock, Sig, S&W and Springfield, make up the lion’s share of the law enforcement market for duty pistols issued to or purchased individually by most police officers.

If you took a poll amongst police officers who actually have had experience with all these different brands and models of striker fired pistols; and asked them, to list in order which one’s had the best triggers from best to the least, what would they say?

Well, since I am retired LE; and I have experience teaching thousands of police academy cadets in the way of the Glock for a decade out of my LE career. But I also, happen to be a firearm enthusiast, who has personally shot all these differing brands and models quite extensively.

So I will put my personal bias as a Glock fanboy aside and attempt to speak for most police officers who would vote in that poll of which has the best triggers.

The poll would most likely go like this in order:

1. Sig P320
2. Springfield XD
3. S&W M&P
4. Glock

Even though Glock is my preferred brand of striker fired pistol, I would find it hard to disagree with the order of this list.

However, if you asked me which I would prefer other than the way the trigger feels? I would easily, flip this list upside down in order. The reasons being have nothing to do with how the trigger feels?

Now, let’s discuss the nomenclature for the trigger designs of these four different brands that most police officers carry today.

Glock: Glock is famous for their ‘safe action system’. Pulling the slide of a Glock pistol to the rear, c0cks the pistol. But when the slide initially allowed to move forward into the resting position, two things happen. 1. The striker spring immediately relaxes and allows the striker pin to lower into a place of ‘half c0ck’ instead of holding it at a fully c0cked position. This takes pressure off of the striker and spring. The pistol is not capable of firing in this half c0cked position.

2. As the slide comes to rest leaving the striker and spring in this half c0cked position, a ‘falling block safety’. Also, drops down into the firing channel between the striker and the primer of the loaded round in the chamber, effectively blocking the striker channel from allowing the striker to unintentionally move or fire if and when a Glock is dropped, hit, bumped etc.

There is no unintentional way to fire a Glock without the trigger being pressed all the way to the rear. When someone wants to intentionally fire a Glock, they have to purposefully pull the trigger to the rear, which simultaneously, pulls the striker spring and striker backwards to a fully cocked position while at the same time, lifting the falling block from the striker channel which unblocks and allows free travel for the striker when the triggers sear is fully released firing the pistol.

The second the round is fired and the trigger is released? The falling block returns back into place and the striker and spring go back to half c0ck.

S&W M&P:

M&P’s internal safety design is very much like Glock’s. They also have an internal falling block, same as Glock; but instead of their striker and spring resting at half c0ck like the Glock, they designed their striker and spring to rest at a 3/4 c0ck. Still, like Glock, the trigger needs to be finished pulling to the rear.

This is why so many, think S&W’s trigger, is perceived to be better then Glock’s as the tension and creep of 3/4 cocked, feels better than the tension of a half c0cked pistol.

In this same thought; why is Sig Sauer’s P320, have such a great trigger? Is it because, instead of the semi/ quasi double action pulls of Glock’s and M&P’s using the trigger to finish c0cking the gun, Sig instead leaves their strikers in a full c0cked single action mode? You bet your *** they do.

Sig P320: the P320 is completely different in design compared to the proven safety design of Glock and S&W. They leave their striker in a fully c0cked, single action mode with no internal falling block in the striker channel as the previous two. However, this doesn’t mean it’s bad? Nothing wrong with innovation?

While I could attempt to make this post even more TL;DR, I will post this link to read instead, which is very interesting and insightful to the differences from the others and also the current talk about this Sig issue of AD’s.

One of America's Favorite Handguns Is Allegedly Firing On Its Owners

SIG Sauer’s P320 pistol has wounded more than 80 people who say they didn’t pull the trigger — and no U.S. agency has the power to intervene.

www.thetrace.org

Springfield: Like the Sig P320, the Springfield XD and XDM are both fully c0cked single action designs. They also do not have to c0ck the striker and spring by finishing to pull the trigger. Their pistol stays fully c0cked and their striker and spring are held in place until the users hand wraps around and depresses the external grip safety which is located on the back of the XD’s grip, much like a 1911.

I have personally been very critical of Springfield’s Croatian design, because there Isn’t a falling block in the striker channel for the trigger to raise out of the way, someone new to this pistol or firearms in general, once they grip the gun and deactivate the safety just by holding it? I don’t think that’s good personally. Lots of reasons while some one would hold a pistol before intending to fire it? If I am holding a Glock or M&P, I am holding pistols that 1. Aren’t fully c0cked. 2. Aren’t ready to fire unless the trigger finishes c0cking the pistol and 3. There is a falling block in the striker channel blocking an mechanical failure of the hall c0cked striker.

The XD and XDM has none of that? You grip an XD regardless if you are ready to fire or not; and that pistol and striker is fully ready to go, with the grip safety depressed just because you are holding it? If that fully c0cked striker spring mechanism fails? There is no falling block to catch that striker if it’s dropped or that single action trigger barely gets nudged.

So these are the reasons why people complain about why Glock triggers are not as good as other striker brands. But you what! Glock triggers are safer than other brands? And who needs a competition crisp feeling trigger on a combat polymer striker pistol at simple combat ranges?

Give me Durability, reliability and safety instead.

 

[Rob72]

Agreed. Some systems are technically a tad more idiot-proof than others. My first personally-purchased handgun was a Glock, and I learned to be very careful in handling & carry because of that. Definitely not a 686 or P7...