Another P320 Mishap

[Remy]

Excellent post. As a retired LEO, I don’t really see anything in your post to disagree with.

Let’s talk striker fired pistol designs and their internal safeties, or lack thereof; and the varying design differences and what would be the proclivities for AD’s with these different brands.

Glock, Sig, S&W and Springfield, make up the lion’s share of the law enforcement market for duty pistols issued to or purchased individually by most police officers.

If you took a poll amongst police officers who actually have had experience with all these different brands and models of striker fired pistols; and asked them, to list in order which one’s had the best triggers from best to the least, what would they say?

Well, since I am retired LE; and I have experience teaching thousands of police academy cadets in the way of the Glock for a decade out of my LE career. But I also, happen to be a firearm enthusiast, who has personally shot all these differing brands and models quite extensively.

So I will put my personal bias as a Glock fanboy aside and attempt to speak for most police officers who would vote in that poll of which has the best triggers.

The poll would most likely go like this in order:

1. Sig P320
2. Springfield XD
3. S&W M&P
4. Glock

Even though Glock is my preferred brand of striker fired pistol, I would find it hard to disagree with the order of this list.

However, if you asked me which I would prefer other than the way the trigger feels? I would easily, flip this list upside down in order. The reasons being have nothing to do with how the trigger feels?

---

So these are the reasons why people complain about why Glock triggers are not as good as other striker brands. But you what! Glock triggers are safer than other brands? And who needs a competition crisp feeling trigger on a combat polymer striker pistol at simple combat ranges?

Give me Durability, reliability and safety instead.

Agreed.
It's all about the role of the pistol and how it will be used. But, that's also why I'm a bit suspicious about most of these P320 incidents. A jump over a fence and your P320 goes bang? That I'd have an easier time believing. Pistol smacked out of your hand and hits the brick wall... ok, not good, but mechanically I can sort of understand, even if I think that's poor design for a service weapon. But these situations where it's just in the holster and goes bang? Either something is physically breaking inside the striker system and we're not being told about it, or something got in there that either pulled the trigger or otherwise released that striker after one final movement. None of that is good, all of it is something that should be a serious red flag for anyone using it in a duty situation, but instead we get a bunch of BS from Sig and half reports from the agencies that had issues. I'm not an insider, so I don't know what's been said internally at any of those agencies or even Sig, but as a prior Sig owner, yeah, not confidence inspiring.

I seriously dislike the Glock trigger pull, even most of the high end aftermarket ones. I have a lot of rounds through 1911's and much prefer that short, crisp, clean pull. It maximizes my skills and rewards my training. On the other hand, which system is part of my primary bump in the night and Oh Sht gear? Yeah, Glock style stuff. Because as much as I love my 1911, it's less abuse, idiot and stress friendly. If I'm going to be dealing with a lot of other problems and not just routine daily life, I'd rather have tupperware than fine china. That said, it'll be a cold day in hell when I EDC a Glock under normal circumstances. Damn things have no soul.

ETA, while it makes your trigger pull a bit trickier to polish up, I am a fan of more modern 1911 designs with a firing pin safety. Guns DO get dropped, sears break... I like the trigger pull and ergonomics, but I'm still a fan of redundant safety designs in real world guns. Race guns? Knock yourself out.

 

[OkieStubble]

Most people who cut their teeth on 1911’s fail to see the simplistic genius and beauty of Gaston Glock’s design. I just happened to of cut my teeth on the Glock as a wee baby in the police academy. And then had the privilege of getting to know a Glock more intimately than most, spending 10 years teaching other wee babies in how to survive on the street with a Glock.

I had a bit of experience shooting ‘other people’s 1911’s over the decades, but never personally owned one until my retirement.

I absolutely love everything about my Springfield Range Officer. But I have just spent way too much time depending on a Glock while going into harm’s way to not have a bit of a relational dependency when choosing what I carry everyday. It’s a feeling that’s hard to explain. Kinda like; not wearing underwear?

I feel perfectly protected just wearing pants and/or my 1911. But I just don’t feel the same complete comfort and confidence as when I’m wearing pants AND underwear? And/or a Glock?

Sound crazy?

 

[OkieStubble]

Agreed.
It's all about the role of the pistol and how it will be used. But, that's also why I'm a bit suspicious about most of these P320 incidents. A jump over a fence and your P320 goes bang? That I'd have an easier time believing. Pistol smacked out of your hand and hits the brick wall... ok, not good, but mechanically I can sort of understand, even if I think that's poor design for a service weapon. But these situations where it's just in the holster and goes bang? Either something is physically breaking inside the striker system and we're not being told about it, or something got in there that either pulled the trigger or otherwise released that striker after one final movement. None of that is good, all of it is something that should be a serious red flag for anyone using it in a duty situation, but instead we get a bunch of BS from Sig and half reports from the agencies that had issues. I'm not an insider, so I don't know what's been said internally at any of those agencies or even Sig, but as a prior Sig owner, yeah, not confidence inspiring.

I seriously dislike the Glock trigger pull, even most of the high end aftermarket ones. I have a lot of rounds through 1911's and much prefer that short, crisp, clean pull. It maximizes my skills and rewards my training. On the other hand, which system is part of my primary bump in the night and Oh Sht gear? Yeah, Glock style stuff. Because as much as I love my 1911, it's less abuse, idiot and stress friendly. If I'm going to be dealing with a lot of other problems and not just routine daily life, I'd rather have tupperware than fine china. That said, it'll be a cold day in hell when I EDC a Glock under normal circumstances. Damn things have no soul.

ETA, while it makes your trigger pull a bit trickier to polish up, I am a fan of more modern 1911 designs with a firing pin safety. Guns DO get dropped, sears break... I like the trigger pull and ergonomics, but I'm still a fan of redundant safety designs in real world guns. Race guns? Knock yourself out.

You made a really good point earlier about how the highest percentage of those with P320 AD’s being police officers?

It makes me curious to know, how many of those police officers, actually moved from a Glock to the Sig P320?

Interesting no? This would also fall in line with what you said, about them working and needing to manipulate their firearms on a daily basis?

I have had to personally fire a Glock in the performance of my duties, three different times during my career, but I also have had it out; drawn and pointed at other individuals over the course of my career, way too many times to count.

Maybe it isn’t the P320? Maybe it’s transitioning from a Glock trigger and subconsciously trying to treat the P320 trigger like a Glock trigger? I’m sure, many officers who don’t always maintain trigger finger discipline, getaway with it more often with a Glock’s trigger than they would a Sig P320’s trigger?

 

[Remy]

You made a really good point earlier about how the highest percentage of those with P320 AD’s being police officers?

It makes me curious to know, how many of those police officers, actually moved from a Glock to the Sig P320?

Interesting no? This would also fall in line with what you said, about them working and needing to manipulate their forearms on a daily basis?

I have had to personally fire a Glock in the performance of my duties, three different times during my career, but I also have had it out; drawn and pointed at other individuals over the course of my career, way too many times to count.

Maybe it isn’t the P320? Maybe it’s transitioning from a Glock trigger and subconsciously trying to treat the P320 trigger like a Glock trigger? I’m sure, many officers who don’t always maintain trigger finger discipline, getaway with it more often with a Glock’s trigger than they would a Sig. P320’s trigger?

Maybe, and likely MOST of them were using Glocks prior. But we've seen several on video where it really was in the holster. No creative reporting to cover their butts after goofing. But yeah, I expect there will be a higher percentage of stress fires or accidental sympathetic gripping. It's why I'm so unhappy with how often officers seem to point guns at people when lethal force isn't already on the table. Too easy to goof once it's out of the holster even when you 100% did not intend to do it.

I think that we'll almost always see police and LE in general being the most common group to have issues with duty handguns. Just like hunters are the most common group for shotgun and rifle issues and sub compacts are more distributed among everyone who carries one as a backup or EDC. They represent, by a huge margin, the most man hours with those firearms in circumstances where something could happen at all. Someone like me, who bought the P320 as mostly a range toy, is unlikely to encounter a problem because I took it to the range unloaded. Put a mag in, racked the slide and then shot until empty. Repeat until done for the day... Maybe I did some holster work and drills, but still, total hours spent with a loaded firearm is minimal compared to an officer. Even before you factor in the lower chance of something getting into the mechanism or holster, they're going to be more highly represented than the non LEO owners. Heck, those stats are why the military uses the policy they do. Hard to have an ND or anything similar when the pistol's not loaded or at least has a clear chamber. That's a huge hurdle to cross before you can even begin to have an issue. It's just not practical in the civilian world for defensive use. But it's why hunters are taught to clear the chamber before crossing a fence, ditch, creek... lifting the weapon into a tree stand...

I talked to a gentleman who had an ND into the roof of his guide's range rover in Africa. He'd been prepared to shoot and the chance didn't develop so they got back in the vehicle. Holding the rifle upright but sliding over further on the seat he caught the trigger on a bag just right and sent a 300 win mag bullet into orbit and deafened everyone for a few hours. He told me that to this day he triple checks when clearing firearms and is still paranoid about it unless he can see the bolt being open.

 

[Acmemfg]

Sabes que? At the end of the day, in the real world, when practicality in our everyday existence reigns most important…..
safe, simple, effective will trump pretty much everything else I think.
Keeping that in mind I certainly see no shortcoming with this-

For every con the naysayer may offer up to carrying one of these dinosaurs as an EDC, I can counter with one or more pros.
How did Walter Cronkite put it….?
”That’s the way it is.” Mic drop…….

 

[Rob72]

Damn things have no soul.

Oh, they do. Darker than their finish, inside that black plastic box at midnight.

 

[Rob72]

Sabes que? At the end of the day, in the real world, when practicality in our everyday existence reigns most important…..
safe, simple, effective will trump pretty much everything else I think.
Keeping that in mind I certainly see no shortcoming with this-
View attachment 1699351
For every con the naysayer may offer up to carrying one of these dinosaurs as an EDC, I can counter with one or more pros.
How did Walter Cronkite put it….?
”That’s the way it is.” Mic drop…….

Except capacity...

and jam clearing...

 

[jar_]

Except capacity...

and jam clearing...

Capacity is really an illusion. Jam clearing is an illusion.

How many members here have had to fire more than five rounds in a real life self defense incident?

Jam clearing drills are needed with both revolvers and pistols.

How many members here have had to clear a jam in a real life self defense incident?

Long long away and far far ago my wife was cooking when the grease in the pan caught fire.

She immediately ran for the fire extinguisher.

I put the lid on the pan and told her to put the fire extinguisher away.

Practice for when things go bad. Often the correct answer is NOT the fire extinguisher.

 

[bonjing]

Capacity is really an illusion. Jam clearing is an illusion.

How many members here have had to fire more than five rounds in a real life self defense incident?

Jam clearing drills are needed with both revolvers and pistols.

How many members here have had to clear a jam in a real life self defense incident?

Long long away and far far ago my wife was cooking when the grease in the pan caught fire.

She immediately ran for the fire extinguisher.

I put the lid on the pan and told her to put the fire extinguisher away.

Practice for when things go bad. Often the correct answer is NOT the fire extinguisher.

I don’t know how many rounds she fired, but that was one hell of a long phone call, and I know we can all Monday morning quarterback everything she did right and wrong.

 

[Rob72]

Capacity is really an illusion. Jam clearing is an illusion.

How many members here have had to fire more than five rounds in a real life self defense incident?

Jam clearing drills are needed with both revolvers and pistols.

How many members here have had to clear a jam in a real life self defense incident?

Long long away and far far ago my wife was cooking when the grease in the pan caught fire.

She immediately ran for the fire extinguisher.

I put the lid on the pan and told her to put the fire extinguisher away.

Practice for when things go bad. Often the correct answer is NOT the fire extinguisher.

Just poking you! Seriously, tho', we carry for the perceived risk in our domain of travel, and I do at times carry a Seecamp or a SP101; however, capacity and jam clearing are not illusions and are an integral part of the aforementioned practicing for when things go bad.

'Tis far better to have and not need than need and not have, tried to row that boat before and it ain't fun! We have all had different experiences that direct our choices.

 

[Rob72]

BOT, I'm curious about the reporting on the 320. At the moment, everyone and their brothers are moving from the Coasts to the Central US, and alllll of my news feed features articles about how bad the schools are, how uneducated people are, how the social services are so utterly behind, etc., etc.. Of course, this means that someone is feeding the algorithms externally (because I do not click on feed-news, I subscribe to RANE and WSJ).

I'm wondering if the events are truly statistically more significant, or is it a sensationalist reporting mechanism? (I am not by any means a P320 fan. I've never owned one as I didn't see it offering any substantive advantage.)

 

[Kentos]

I have a p365 recently acquired, and have been practicing dry fires and drawing from a holster. Got into a bad habit of pulling the gun out and preloading the trigger, then breaking it when on target. I didn’t know I did that until I took out the Glock with a performance connector in it. Whadda you know the pin dropped before I was on target. In comparing the two, the Sig had a definite hard wall that I can feel and preload to. The Glock on the other hand, with a 50 cent polish, connector and over travel taken out breaks smoothly with almost no wall.

This has nothing to do with uncommanded discharges, but if a weekend shooter can get so accustomed to a trigger over a couple months, imagine somone who shot a particular trigger for a decade moving to a new platform. I can imagine a steep learning curve.

 

[OkieStubble]

I have a p365 recently acquired, and have been practicing dry fires and drawing from a holster. Got into a bad habit of pulling the gun out and preloading the trigger, then breaking it when on target. I didn’t know I did that until I took out the Glock with a performance connector in it. Whadda you know the pin dropped before I was on target. In comparing the two, the Sig had a definite hard wall that I can feel and preload to. The Glock on the other hand, with a 50 cent polish, connector and over travel taken out breaks smoothly with almost no wall.

This has nothing to do with uncommanded discharges, but if a weekend shooter can get so accustomed to a trigger over a couple months, imagine somone who shot a particular trigger for a decade moving to a new platform. I can imagine a steep learning curve.

I have had alot of time under Glocks, but a Glock with almost 'no wall' sounds skeery, even to me.

Also, first time I've ever heard the term, "performance connector." Sent a small shiver up my spine...

I definitely agree with the bolded.

 

[OkieStubble]

BOT, I'm curious about the reporting on the 320. At the moment, everyone and their brothers are moving from the Coasts to the Central US, and alllll of my news feed features articles about how bad the schools are, how uneducated people are, how the social services are so utterly behind, etc., etc.. Of course, this means that someone is feeding the algorithms externally (because I do not click on feed-news, I subscribe to RANE and WSJ).

I'm wondering if the events are truly statistically more significant, or is it a sensationalist reporting mechanism? (I am not by any means a P320 fan. I've never owned one as I didn't see it offering any substantive advantage.)

You would be surprised how balanced and unbiased the general news that is reported by Al-Jazeera.

 

[Kentos]

I have had alot of time under Glocks, but a Glock with almost 'no wall' sounds skeery, even to me.

Also, first time I've ever heard the term, "performance connector." Sent a small shiver up my spine...

I definitely agree with the bolded.

It’s a fun range gun that I happened to grab to shoot the intruder .

Ran it again. There is a wall, but it’s hard to describe. The sig feels a little bit like a trigger on a 1911 where you feel the wall, then break…although the sig creeps for miles after the wall till it breaks. I can bang the trigger into it pretty forcefully without dropping the pin.

On the Glock I can feel the trigger bar touch the connector, ride down the slope then break. It’s a smooth feel that I really like. Touching the bar is the wall I guess.

 

[OkieStubble]

It’s a fun range gun that I happened to grab to shoot the intruder .

Ran it again. There is a wall, but it’s hard to describe. The sig feels a little bit like a trigger on a 1911 where you feel the wall, then break…although the sig creeps for miles after the wall till it breaks. I can bang the trigger into it pretty forcefully without dropping the pin.

On the Glock I can feel the trigger bar touch the connector, ride down the slope then break. It’s a smooth feel that I really like. Touching the bar is the wall I guess.

I hear ya. I always used to hear the Glock haters complain about the mushy trigger? I love that mush! Makes for a very predictable wall and break imo.

I have been practicing a lot with my 1911 and dummy rounds. I have seen many 1911 pistolero’s breaking leather and flipping off the thumb safety as they bring the 1911 up to point & presentation. I try to break leather, present my 1911 up to chest height and then flip off the safety as I’m moving the pistol towards the target.

Being a Glock guy for sooooo long, makes me want to be hyper aware when I’m training with my 1911, even with dummy rounds.

 

[jar_]

Yup. 1911 safety stays on until I'm putting my finger in the trigger guard.

Now with DA/SA push forward safety rather than swipe down the safety pistols I generally swipe safety off after holstered.

 

[Kentos]

I hear ya. I always used to hear the Glock haters complain about the mushy trigger? I love that mush! Makes for a very predictable wall and break imo.

I have been practicing a lot with my 1911 and dummy rounds. I have seen many 1911 pistolero’s breaking leather and flipping off the thumb safety as they bring the 1911 up to point & presentation. I try to break leather, present my 1911 up to chest height and then flip off the safety as I’m moving the pistol towards the target.

Being a Glock guy for sooooo long, makes me want to be hyper aware when I’m training with my 1911, even with dummy rounds.

At what point do you train the shooter to stick his booger picker on the trigger when drawing?

 

[OkieStubble]

At what point do you train the shooter to stick his booger picker on the trigger when drawing?

When they are aimed at their target and ready to fire; and only when they are aimed at their intended target and ready to fire.

 

[Kentos]

When they are aimed at their target and ready to fire; and only when they are aimed at their intended target and ready to fire.

Yep, been doing it wrong. Mahalos!