Is the movement getting bigger?

Not A Nice Person · Jul 26, 2008

It's a funny thing, though. This is definitely a "trend." Anything retro is cool with the 20-something crowd right now . . . just look at steampunk, psychobilly, the rat rod scene.

All small, marginal subcultures, yes . . . individually. Taken together with the popularity of vintage clothings styles---A&F's faux 70's, pre-distressed tees, anyone?---and it starts to look like a direction.

I'd seen one article online, about a year or two ago, and was quite frankly bemused they were talking about safety razors rather than straights . . . heh. Had no clue.

Then Pete joins the cigar forum I'm on, gets us all curious, starts a few people off, and I come over here and find a HUGE and thriving community, dozens of niche suppliers, from old and prestigious to small and personal and handcrafted . . . and decide to give it a whirl.

Fast forward a couple weeks, I mention it to my nephew, who's in his twenties and a musician and just generally plugged into trends . . . "Oh, cool," he tells me, "All the guys I know are switching to that now."

He'd be, too, except he only has to shave about every other week. :lol:

NANP

dpm802 · Jul 26, 2008

My fear is that if Gillette were to introduce a DE handle, it would be a different head design than we're accustomed to, and it would require the use of unique blades that were available only from Gillette, probably at a cost of $1 or more each.

Gillette's business model is to sell blades, not razors. As such, they're not going to do anything that would infringe on their market share, and they're unlikely to produce anything that would accept Derby or Feather or IP, no matter how much this community wants them to.

And its a shame, because as my razor collection grows, I've found that my vintage Gillettes do an excellent job, and give me the closest shave time after time with little effort, no matter which brand of blades or lather I'm using.

If Gillette does re-enter the market, it will almost certainly be manufactured in Asia ... not that that's a bad thing. There's no reason why a Chinese made razor needs to be any lesser quality than a German or English one.

I'd love to see a new Gillette DE ... but I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for it.

mmain1 · Jul 26, 2008

Eagle said:
Start telling everyone you know about your shaving habits and 9 out of 10 will tell you that you're crazy.

ColbyPants said:
+1, exactly.

The average user doesnt want a satisfying, luxurious shave. They dont want it to help their complexion. They dont even necessarily care if it is cheap. They want their shaving to be passable, easy, and most importantly, QUICK. Shaving is a chore, to be dispensed with ASAP. The market will not get a new DE from Gillette or any of the big suppliers in the States, because the vast majority of people (who these people cater to), frankly, do not want one.

I think this concept hits the nail on the head. I get weird looks from most people that I mention old school shaving too. I think the other 97% of the population are perfectly satisfied with the canned goo and 6 bladed razors. Being as those products are designed to generate large profit margins, and the vast majority subscribe to the marketing, it's easy to see why the shaving market is what it is...

ColbyPants · Jul 26, 2008

Not A Nice Person said:
It's a funny thing, though. This is definitely a "trend." Anything retro is cool with the 20-something crowd right now.

Yeah, but those trends are fickle, and the majority of folks in the college set will move on to the next thing soon enough, leaving just the smart ones behind

.

Redhook · Jul 26, 2008

One of the biggest issues is that society today is to go constantly fast non-stop and as long as the general population is in this mindset, instead of slowing down and enjoying life and a good shave. Gillette will stay with the current mainstay to keep up that mindset and money.

monkeyman · Jul 26, 2008

You all have good points about corporate greed disabling the idea that DE shavers could ever have a chance of a reprisal. Yes, the world is in a big hurry. Even a good shave isn't worth the time. It reminds me of the lyrics to that country song....I'm in a hurry to get things done....rush and rush until life's no fun......

I suppose I'm looking at the present success of Merkur and how a similar business model could work in the states. Merkur is a subsidiary of DOVO and it's very diversified in what it makes. DE blades and shavers are just one part of a larger company that is part of a community of cutlery craftsmen in Solingen.

I could see a small US based company that already makes cutlery easily setting up the tooling necessary to make DE shavers at low to moderate production levels. They could even make specialized handcrafted DE shavers. I think their niche market would be in making the razor itself as I think the worldwide DE blade providers are making a good product for very cheap and there's no need to improve on something that's already perfect. Even if we made the assumption that there are only 10,000 DE shavers and we're it, a small US based cutlery company could make a nice bundle of money off of us. I'm assuming that we would be will to pay between $50-100 on whatever they created, maybe more if it was custom.

I have to say I'm in love with my Merkur HD but being the proud American that I am, I do think American ingenuity could make something better if it put its mind to it.

On a side note, who else in the world presently makes a good DE shaver other than Germany? It seems like I heard about some shavers from India that are good too.

spinyeel · Jul 26, 2008

I think if Weishi expanded their range to include adjustable and three piece razors of the same quality as their current TTO offering,they would have no trouble selling them.The Parker 3 piece razors are also very good,unlike their TTOs. :smile:

koso · Jul 27, 2008

I do believe one side effect of the wetshaving trend is Merkur was spurred to tighten their quality control.

You see lots of old posts in the archives here and at other sites complaining about the slipshod quality of new Merkur razors.

I don't see that being posted lately. The 39C I recently got is well-made and the plating is holding just fine.

I suspect the Germans' pride was stung by reading posts about how their stuff wasn't made well. That's just not something one is accustomed to seeing.

DunEdinRanger · Jul 27, 2008

dpm802 said:
Gillette's business model is to sell blades, not razors. As such, they're not going to do anything that would infringe on their market share, and they're unlikely to produce anything that would accept Derby or Feather or IP, no matter how much this community wants them to.

Right, but maybe it is time to rethink the business model. They make their money from the blades, and by patenting/copyrighting the design of the cartridge and how it connects to the razor. When that runs out for the Fusion, what will they do next?

Granted, you only need one razor - but good marketing will have an entry level model for the folks just starting out, and you can advance up to a beautiful and expensive gold/platinum razor. "It's the perfect gift!" :biggrin:

Robxcarlson · Jul 27, 2008

It's been said already, but I wouldn't bet on it either.
The demand for DE razors/blades is limited and already being met by the vintage supply and by Dovo, Parker, Wieshi and handful of others. Most of the designs are 50-100 years old and there's little room for a large company to offer anything unique to this market.
Enjoy your status as an individual in the world of shaving and convert a few guys if you can.

Zach V. · Jul 27, 2008

I've enjoyed reading all of the different perspectives pertaining to this issue, and most of them are spot-on. If you have skimmed through what I had to say previously, you know how I feel about it.

Now what I'm thinking about, from a long-term standpoint, is where does it end? By "it" I mean the addition of features and blades on the cartidge razor: extra blades, lube strips, batteries, ad nauseum. We joke about it all the time, and it's hilarious, but seriously, where does it ultimately stop? Does it go to 10 blades? Fifty blades? So many batteries it is too heavy to use? A built in I-pod or blackberry perhaps? You get the idea; eventually, one would have to consider that someday, the "advances" will run their course; there must be a point of diminishing returns eventually.

I agree that most people, at least currently, probably view the "upgrades" as technological improvements (obviously, as a recent DE convert I feel they are sadly mistaken). But does there ever come a point, finally, most likely several decades down the road, when the vast majority of shavers finally begin to catch on and realize that more is not better? When suddenly they say to themselves "Wait a minute. I'm just shaving here, is all of this complication really necessary? Do I really need 50 microscopic blades and a built in cell phone in my razor? What am I doing here?"

Perhaps at that point, if they finally get sick of everything, if they then decide to come to DE, and stop purchasing the high end cartridges, the safety razor will once again become the universal razor of choice.

As someone mentioned above, there is a new class of guys, albeit a minority, that think retro is "cool", and I could see that mindset growing in the future.

Only when people stop buying the high end cartridges, only when there is no demand for fancy, exta super upgrades, only when they get dusty on the shelves and stay in their boxes, can we realistically expect Procter and Gamble, or Gillette, or whoever owns the company at that point in the future, to produce a new safety razor. Because at that point, they will simply try to compete with all of the other safety razor companies.

The "cartridge improvement" era will then come to a close, and all that will left of it will be simple disposables or perhaps a rudimentary pivot razor for travel use.

I'm 36, and I could see it happening in my lifetime, but I don't think it will happen very soon.

OldSaw · Jul 27, 2008

dpm802 said:
My fear is that if Gillette were to introduce a DE handle, it would be a different head design than we're accustomed to, and it would require the use of unique blades that were available only from Gillette, probably at a cost of $1 or more each.

Gillette's business model is to sell blades, not razors. As such, they're not going to do anything that would infringe on their market share, and they're unlikely to produce anything that would accept Derby or Feather or IP, no matter how much this community wants them to.

And its a shame, because as my razor collection grows, I've found that my vintage Gillettes do an excellent job, and give me the closest shave time after time with little effort, no matter which brand of blades or lather I'm using.

If Gillette does re-enter the market, it will almost certainly be manufactured in Asia ... not that that's a bad thing. There's no reason why a Chinese made razor needs to be any lesser quality than a German or English one.

I'd love to see a new Gillette DE ... but I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for it.

That's about where I would expect to see it. In fact, I would buy such a cartridge.

Zach V. said:
I've enjoyed reading all of the different perspectives pertaining to this issue, and most of them are spot-on. If you have skimmed through what I had to say previously, you know how I feel about it.

Now what I'm thinking about, from a long-term standpoint, is where does it end? By "it" I mean the addition of features and blades on the cartidge razor: extra blades, lube strips, batteries, ad nauseum. We joke about it all the time, and it's hilarious, but seriously, where does it ultimately stop? Does it go to 10 blades? Fifty blades? So many batteries it is too heavy to use? A built in I-pod or blackberry perhaps? You get the idea; eventually, one would have to consider that someday, the "advances" will run their course; there must be a point of diminishing returns eventually.

I agree that most people, at least currently, probably view the "upgrades" as technological improvements (obviously, as a recent DE convert I feel they are sadly mistaken). But does there ever come a point, finally, most likely several decades down the road, when the vast majority of shavers finally begin to catch on and realize that more is not better? When suddenly they say to themselves "Wait a minute. I'm just shaving here, is all of this complication really necessary? Do I really need 50 microscopic blades and a built in cell phone in my razor? What am I doing here?"

Perhaps at that point, if they finally get sick of everything, if they then decide to come to DE, and stop purchasing the high end cartridges, the safety razor will once again become the universal razor of choice.

As someone mentioned above, there is a new class of guys, albeit a minority, that think retro is "cool", and I could see that mindset growing in the future.

Only when people stop buying the high end cartridges, only when there is no demand for fancy, exta super upgrades, only when they get dusty on the shelves and stay in their boxes, can we realistically expect Procter and Gamble, or Gillette, or whoever owns the company at that point in the future, to produce a new safety razor. Because at that point, they will simply try to compete with all of the other safety razor companies.

The "cartridge improvement" era will then come to a close, and all that will left of it will be simple disposables or perhaps a rudimentary pivot razor for travel use.

I'm 36, and I could see it happening in my lifetime, but I don't think it will happen very soon.

One thing we can count on to continue is, change. The razor industry will continue to change to meet customer demand and corporate profits.

monkeyman said:
You all have good points about corporate greed disabling the idea that DE shavers could ever have a chance of a reprisal. Yes, the world is in a big hurry. Even a good shave isn't worth the time. It reminds me of the lyrics to that country song....I'm in a hurry to get things done....rush and rush until life's no fun......

I wish people would quit confusing profitability with greed. If it weren't for profits no business would ever succeed. We have to accept profits as a way of life. If we quit buying something because the price is too high either the price will be adjusted or the product will go away. No company in the world is going to make a mass produced product that is not profitable.

There is such a small margin in DE blades that they can't afford to advertise. Those of us who want them must seek them out. Once the emerging markets are assimilated to cartridges the DE will be dead. There might be one or two manufacturers who hang on for the nostalgia buffs, but the cost will not be cheap, like it is now.

Zach V. · Jul 27, 2008

OldSaw said:
That's about where I would expect to see it. In fact, I would buy such a cartridge.

One thing we can count on to continue is, change. The razor industry will continue to change to meet customer demand and corporate profits.

Yes, the market will change to meet demands, and that change will follow whatever demand the public has, be it a fifty blade cartridge with 25 lube strips and a built in i-pod, or just a simple DE razor.

I wish people would quit confusing profitability with greed. If it weren't for profits no business would ever succeed. We have to accept profits as a way of life. If we quit buying something because the price is too high either the price will be adjusted or the product will go away. No company in the world is going to make a mass produced product that is not profitable

There is such a small margin in DE blades that they can't afford to advertise. Those of us who want them must seek them out. Once the emerging markets are assimilated to cartridges the DE will be dead. There might be one or two manufacturers who hang on for the nostalgia buffs, but the cost will not be cheap, like it is now.[/QUOTE

+1

Yes, the market will change to meet demands, and that change will follow whatever demand the public has, be it a fifty blade cartridge with 25 lube strips and a built in i-pod, or just a simple DE razor.

I wonder if we should stockpile...find a cool, dry place perhaps... I guess blades would last for decades if in a suitable environment, right?

I could see buying 480 dollars worth of crystals. That would be 100 blades a year for 40 years. Done deal.

soapbox · Jul 27, 2008

I bet the next Fusion-Ultra cartridge puts the blades on a diagonal like a Merkur Slant (more or less); as evinced by the fact they put another blade on the back of the cartridge so you have a hope of shaving under your nose, they can't add more blades (and really, what's the point; people aren't getting incrementally better shaves with three, four, or five blades such that it would suggest that more blades really result in a better shave, and as noted above, it has to stop somewhere anyway. Therefore, they add eccentric motors, lights, goo, rubber fins, and lubra-smooth strips for a while, and then they'll change the orientation of the blades. The "Gillette slide" will be no more in the cartridge world.

Schick will then counter with something like blades that are so thin and flexible that you can shave right over that mole/zit/scar you always get cut on.

Speaking of which, if I were Gillette and Schick and/or ASR, I'd have moles on these boards looking for our stupid ideas so they could monetize them (it worked for The Onion, after all). So...aw crap, I just did it again. Well, off to the US Patent and Trade office to try and get there before the bigtime lawyers do! :001_rolle

OldSaw · Jul 27, 2008

soapbox said:
I bet the next Fusion-Ultra cartridge puts the blades on a diagonal like a Merkur Slant (more or less); as evinced by the fact they put another blade on the back of the cartridge so you have a hope of shaving under your nose, they can't add more blades (and really, what's the point; people aren't getting incrementally better shaves with three, four, or five blades such that it would suggest that more blades really result in a better shave, and as noted above, it has to stop somewhere anyway. Therefore, they add eccentric motors, lights, goo, rubber fins, and lubra-smooth strips for a while, and then they'll change the orientation of the blades. The "Gillette slide" will be no more in the cartridge world.

Schick will then counter with something like blades that are so thin and flexible that you can shave right over that mole/zit/scar you always get cut on.

Speaking of which, if I were Gillette and Schick and/or ASR, I'd have moles on these boards looking for our stupid ideas so they could monetize them (it worked for The Onion, after all). So...aw crap, I just did it again. Well, off to the US Patent and Trade office to try and get there before the bigtime lawyers do!

I still think the best way to make the multi blades work better is with a gel dispenser built into the handle. Having gel push out between the blades would actually allow each blade to be cutting on a lubricated surface.

I would even buy something like this occasionally if it were done well.

Isaias · Jul 27, 2008

Gillette making a razor that will last lifetimes? Bad for the business
DE shaving requires a discipline most men do not have.
DE shaving is also harder to learn.
DE Shaving requires a nice soap/cream and good prep. Canned goo... well it just does not cut it
The retro movement and straight shaving you see in the movies... just a trend that will pass.
Right now, the hip thing to do is to not shave... just trim the beard.

However, i hope that brush and creams do become more popular.

Zach V. · Jul 27, 2008

Isaias said:
[*]Right now, the hip thing to do is to not shave... just trim the beard.
[/LIST]

Just another trend that will pass.

Plus, unless one goes for the mountain man look (which I've done in the past admittedly!) you still have to maintain a neckline and shave the neck.

Continued "improvements" on cartridge razors- another trend that will pass.

philamac · Jul 28, 2008

I don't want to be snobbish but I kind of like it that I do something a bit different. I like it when friends use my bathroom and ask me "what is that funny little brush for?". One of my closest friends saw my gear for the first time and laughingly told me that of all the people he knows, I would be the most likely to use a badger brush and safety razor....then told me that seeing the stuff brought back a happy memory of his grandfather.

I like to buy clothes from Hackett, Tyrwhitt, Hawes & Curtis, Brooks Brothers etc because when I wear them in Norn Iron nobody else has them.

I like to wear a sports jacket with a silk pocket square when I pop out for a pint or two.

I like it that I have got my Dad into this as well and we talk loads about the different creams and brushes I have bought for him, when my brother thinks we are a bit odd :lol:

.

Now I realise this may make me a bit of a snob, but I do not care. I am glad that Trumpers or Taylors will never establish lots of new stores to become the Starbucks of shaving. So I think it is great that more people are interested in "this thing of ours" and I look forward to someday bumping into a fellow B&B'er, but don't want it to get toooooo big :biggrin:

ateace · Jul 28, 2008

Isaias said:
DE shaving requires a discipline most men do not have.
DE shaving is also harder to learn.

This, IMO, is the main roadblock to getting more people interested.

Christoph · Jul 28, 2008

If there are people who will buy the products, then someone will be willing to make them and sell them.

Would Gillette ever want to get back into the business of making DEs? I don't see this happening anytime soon - but it's not out of the question. Of course, they would not want to send the message to their customers that their Fusions and Mach3s are not the best way to shave. But they could still re-issue DEs as some sort of "classic" product line. The movement of men returning to classic shaving methods and products certainly continues to grow. So if they think they can sell them then maybe they (Gillette) would do it. There are at least a few companies in the world that make DEs, and as far as I know they have not failed yet. So maybe Gillette, being as mighty as they are, could just buy one of these companies and stamp their name on all their products.

However, I would imagine that when Gillette's top marketing, R&D, and executives meet, this idea is not even on the radar.

Or is it?

Someone should be thinking about it. Because what if another company swooped in and marketed DEs again to North American men? Even if DEs came back and only accounted for 5% of the market, that would still be millions and millions of dollars!

So to answer this question, I would say do not rule anything out. But don't hold your breath either.

Search

Is the movement getting bigger?

Not A Nice Person

dpm802

mmain1

ColbyPants

Redhook

monkeyman

spinyeel

koso

DunEdinRanger

Robxcarlson

Zach V.

OldSaw

The wife's investment

Zach V.

soapbox

OldSaw

The wife's investment

Isaias

Zach V.

philamac

ateace

Christoph

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