Stones or film

[kayvee]

There are a few of these threads in recent days. I debated thread-jacking or opening a new thread and decided to do this

I have the following stones that are useful/potentially useful
a) Shapton 1500
b) C12K
c) Dan's True Hard (surgical black) Arkansas

Some that are potentially distracting and not useful
d) unknown grit AlOx two sided (grey/dirt red) combo
e) HF 120/320 two sided combo

And film - 30um, 12um, 9um, 3um, 1um. I got one sheet each - cut into 4 pieces.

I'm tired of changing film and looking for recommendations on what to get between the 1500 and the Arkansas.

I like the 1500 - should I go for more of the Shaptons? Which grit? Or should I go for the combo Nortons 4/8?

With film there's only the 3um between 9um and 1um - similarly, can I get by with just one stone in between?

 

[rbscebu]

For lapping films, I buy them in sets of 7 x A4 size sheets on AliExpress for about US$18 per set with free shipping. A seven-sheet set consists of one each of 30μm, 12μm, 9μm, 5μm, 3μm, 1μm and 0.3μm (never used). With each sheet cut into four strips, a seven-sheet set lasts me about 30 to 50 full honing sessions. That's a lot of SR honings. Mind you, I do now use a Chinese 1k/3k synthetic for bevel setting before moving on to the lapping films.

From the 1μm film, you can easily go to your hard black Arkansas if so desired.

 

[kayvee]

I do have film but, I'm tired of changing film and trying to figure out when I've run out of abrasive. Since I have a bevel setter and a finisher, I'm just wondering if there's one intermediate stone I can get instead of film (3um)

OR, should I just grin and bear it and continue using the film?

 

[JPO]

I do have film but, I'm tired of changing film and trying to figure out when I've run out of abrasive. Since I have a bevel setter and a finisher, I'm just wondering if there's one intermediate stone I can get instead of film (3um)

OR, should I just grin and bear it and continue using the film?

I have the Shapton glass hr 2.45 micron (6000).
This is in my opinion a really good intermediate stone. The glass side can also be used as base for the lapping film.

 

[Wid]

After bevel set I use a Chosera 3K, Naniwa Snow White (8K) then a Naniwa Gouken Kagayaki 12K. Not sure what the equivalent Shaptons would be

For using that Arkansa stone make sure to bring a shave ready razor to it.

 

[buca3152]

Film is great. It's an inexpensive way to get started. And even if you bought stones curiosity will probably make you at least what to try it. I prefer stones. I started with them but I'm glad I tried film as well.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

OP, is budget a concern?

 

[Wid]

"With film there's only the 3um between 9um and 1um - similarly, can I get by with just one stone in between?"

I glossed right over this part. The answer would be a coticule. After bevel set you can go all the way to shave ready with a coticule. No problem going to the Arkansas stone after the coticule

 

[DrStrange]

There are a few of these threads in recent days. I debated thread-jacking or opening a new thread and decided to do this

I have the following stones that are useful/potentially useful
a) Shapton 1500
b) C12K
c) Dan's True Hard (surgical black) Arkansas

Some that are potentially distracting and not useful
d) unknown grit AlOx two sided (grey/dirt red) combo
e) HF 120/320 two sided combo

And film - 30um, 12um, 9um, 3um, 1um. I got one sheet each - cut into 4 pieces.

I'm tired of changing film and looking for recommendations on what to get between the 1500 and the Arkansas.

I like the 1500 - should I go for more of the Shaptons? Which grit? Or should I go for the combo Nortons 4/8?

With film there's only the 3um between 9um and 1um - similarly, can I get by with just one stone in between?

I use the Norton 4/8 combo to transition between 1K and 10K.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

So, like you I have a Shapton 1.5k, and a translucent ark finisher. I use two synths to bridge that gap: Naniwa Hayabusa 4k and Fuji 8k. Not sure how easily available these are, I got them off amazon. This setup works, but there are days I wish I had another stone between the 1.5k and the 4k. This particular 4k is relatively fine. Going from that to the Fuji is no problem at all. The Fuji also is relatively fine. You can get a shaving edge off it, not every 8k will. I also sometimes go to another natural stone before the ark.

A good ark is really more of a "post finisher" than a finisher. Your best results are going to be acheived with the best shaving edge you can manage before you go to the ark.

Shapton Glass series also gets a lot of love around here, I haven't used them myself but many have and hopefully some guys will give a more specific recommendation there.

My opinion is that if you're looking at synths you'll want two stones to get you from the 1.5k to the ark. Or, a good midrange and continue to use film as your prefinisher. A coticule would work though, as Rick said. There may be a slight learning curve there.

I also started with film and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. But if you enjoy honing up ebay rescues, you end up burning through a lot of film.

 

[Empire straights]

There are a few of these threads in recent days. I debated thread-jacking or opening a new thread and decided to do this

I have the following stones that are useful/potentially useful
a) Shapton 1500
b) C12K
c) Dan's True Hard (surgical black) Arkansas

Some that are potentially distracting and not useful
d) unknown grit AlOx two sided (grey/dirt red) combo
e) HF 120/320 two sided combo

And film - 30um, 12um, 9um, 3um, 1um. I got one sheet each - cut into 4 pieces.

I'm tired of changing film and looking for recommendations on what to get between the 1500 and the Arkansas.

I like the 1500 - should I go for more of the Shaptons? Which grit? Or should I go for the combo Nortons 4/8?

With film there's only the 3um between 9um and 1um - similarly, can I get by with just one stone in between?

You could find a cheap coticule for mid grit, and old washita, a norton soft ark would probably work too. With that 1500 and true hard for quick bevel setting and fine finishing any of those others would do the work. A combo 4/8k waterstone might do it, I don't really use these so I can't tell you how good they are. Turkey stones are good, and you might even be able to get away with using a Pyrenees combo stone(saurat/ bbw like the one pictured below) it'll do a really good range. I can go from reprofile>finish with knives on it so I'd imagine it could handle the midrange on a razor. You'd just have to watch for it kicking up grit. A coticule with slurry will probably do the largest range, fastest, and handle a wide variety of steels. If you didn't get Finishing one it wouldn't matter because of your hard ark. Garnet cuts everything but diamond.

 

[Empire straights]

Also, you can get one side of that hard ark roughed up and leave the other smooth and it can help you make the jump to being ready to finish on the smoother side. Finish it to 400# and it'll cut steel some instead of just polishing.

 

[kayvee]

I'm currently honing a razor with a warp. I currently have 4 razors and all of them have warps - go figure. Including the vintage shave ready one that I currently use to shave with.

Frankly, I'm unable to do all of these at the same time (with film)
a) hold the acrylic substrate with film in one hand
b) move the razor forward (or backward)
c) angle the razor as well as lift or drop to account for concavity/convexity

1. In another thread a few folks are helping me - a suggestion was given to bench hone to set the bevel. I found that helpful - I was able to use my left hand to add pressure, and or navigate. I was finally able to set the bevel (I hope).

2. The next step was to use the 3u film. Since I'm using tape (long story) I'm unable to get any feedback from the film. Stiction is present from the first lap.

3. I'm frustrated with changing film - I take care of bubbles underneath with a little soap. And trying to keep minute particlaes away - I have two curious kittens that want to know what I'm doing (and help). With stone, I can just wash the hair away. The film wants to separate from the acrylic if I do that. I'm also unable to assess when the abrasives run out on the film.

4. My hope is that I might be able to bench hone with a stone at higher grit levels for these reasons

OP, is budget a concern?

Not necessarily. But I recognize these stones may far outlive me (and have limited utility), and I'm trying to not be wasteful.

I use two synths to bridge that gap: Naniwa Hayabusa 4k and Fuji 8k. Not sure how easily available these are, I got them off amazon. This setup works, but there are days I wish I had another stone between the 1.5k and the 4k.

That's interesting that you see the need for another stone in between. This is what I felt as well. Even when I was using the film without taping the razor, I was spending so much time on the 3um film.

I'm tempted by coticules, but also wary after hearing the numerous cautionary tales.

 

[JPO]

I am a big fan of the shapton glass series, especially for the low to mid range work. For polishing and finer grits the Naniwa stones are really budget friendly and nice. The 8k snow white and the Fuji 8k are really good stones. The Fuji is probably a little finer then the snow white, so the Arkansas jump might not need anything finer. The 12k SS is also hard to beat for the price if you can accept the warping issues.

Coticules can be grate. If you only plan on using it for midrange work, you shouldn't have a problem getting a decent one.

The newly mined La Grise is a little hit or miss in my opinion.
You also have the La Gross Jaune coticules, which are a little slow, but easy to use.
You can also reach out and get a good stone from one of the members here.

 

[Gamma]

Every C12k I have touched was better used as a doorstop.

Norton 4/8k, never liked it. The 4k isn't 4k, it soaks forever, takes forever to dry, is soft, cuts too slow, doesn't stay flat.
The 8k is more like a JIS 5k, not a fan, I dislike it less than the 4k though. Why did they glue a soaker to a non-soaker? Dumb.

UAOs like the HF stone are best left out of the equation.

I like to have a set of synths as a 'base' system to refer/compare to.

Shapton 1500 is a solid bevel setter.
Following it with the 5k Pro works well.
The 8k Pro follows the 5k well.
I usually move to natural stones after the 5k, and I have other synths but the SP set is a baseline setup for me.
With problem jobs, eliminating variables is key, and having an unwavering standard to rely on helps sort things out.

To fancy it up - 1500 Shap Pro, 4k HC Glass Stone, 6k HC Glass Stone, 10k Glass Stone.

Didn't like films, so I don't use them.

 

[Empire straights]

I'm currently honing a razor with a warp. I currently have 4 razors and all of them have warps - go figure. Including the vintage shave ready one that I currently use to shave with.

Frankly, I'm unable to do all of these at the same time (with film)
a) hold the acrylic substrate with film in one hand
b) move the razor forward (or backward)
c) angle the razor as well as lift or drop to account for concavity/convexity

1. In another thread a few folks are helping me - a suggestion was given to bench hone to set the bevel. I found that helpful - I was able to use my left hand to add pressure, and or navigate. I was finally able to set the bevel (I hope).

2. The next step was to use the 3u film. Since I'm using tape (long story) I'm unable to get any feedback from the film. Stiction is present from the first lap.

3. My hope is that I might be able to bench hone at higher grit levels for these reasons


Not necessarily. But I recognize these stones may far outlive me (and have limited utility), and I'm trying to not be wasteful.


That's interesting that you see the need for another stone in between. This is what I felt as well. Even when I was using the film without taping the razor, I was spending so much time on the 3um film.

I'm tempted by coticules, but also wary after hearing the numerous cautionary tales.

If you get a coticule from a trusted seller be it supplier or a member with a good reputation from one of the many razor forums and talk to either of them about what your looking for before you buy it you shouldn't have much problem. Snatching up random ones wherever you see them(like I do) is going to be a mixed bag.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

You go to war with the army you have.

You already have everything you need. You just need to learn the abrasives you have. If you start switching up adding stones looking for the perfect, magic stone you will never learn to hone. Because you will never learn the stones you have.

There are no magic stones.

Film works, and works well, especially as a finisher 1um and 1um with paper. But learning on film with eBay beaters will burn through a lot of film and you could have bought stones for the money.

Forget the C12K, (unknown grit, not 12k).
Forget the Coticule (again unknown grit), this is the most difficult natural stone to learn. Yes, some folks can get good edges, but they already know how to hone.
Forget the Ark, (they need to be set up properly and you need a pristine shave ready edge to improve the edge with an Ark.

Learn to hone on synthetics, film, or stones, then once you have mastered honing add Naturals. Few can improve a 1um edge.

Try a glass tile sanded flat with 220 for a flat, grippy, no bubble film substrate, $4.

You are burning through 3um film, because you do not have a finished 1.5K bevel and edge, so your 3um is doing a lot of heavy lifting, doing bevel setting work. I routinely go from a 1k bevel set to an 8k to a natural, no issues.

Again, everything you are experiencing is Normal for a new honer, you are not alone.

There are no Magic stones, except maybe a vintage wood dai King 6K…

 

[Bowmaker]

I would fill the gap with a coticule. They work really well for me as jumping off points onto another finisher and are capable of producing nice edges on their own.
A no brainer for me but I just enjoy naturals, so that's what I do.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

Speaking of film, Taylor Toolworks sells a 5μ film. You obviously can go from 9μ to 3μ but you'll end up putting a lot more wear on the 3.

And yes, I would experiment with honing on a bench, see if you can improvise a base for your film setup. I don't think either method is inherently good or bad, but there are situations where one will work better than the other.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Some warped razors are warped, especially entry level Dovos. Some warped razors are not actually warped, but are victims of crazy honing.

A warped razor can usually be simply honed with meaning and feeling and brute force until the bevel faces meet and both bevel faces have at least a tiny bit of meat between edge and top border of the bevel facet. A lot of beginners get the crazy idea that the bevel faces must be of consistent width or some such blather. It is VERY NICE when they do. It is not really a big deal when they don't, unless you paid more than entry level price for the razor, apparently around $130 these days, it seems. A razor so badly warped that it can never be simply honed, doesn't last long in my collection.

I suggest first of all that you purchase a non warped razor. Or at least a not too badly warped razor. Start with that, and don't give yourself the excuse anymore.

I hone on film a lot more than on stones, but I usually do my big steel removals and bevel sets with synthetic stones. I favor my Chosera 600 and 1k, followed with my 1k Naniwa Superstone. For major excavation I have a 220 grit Suehiro and a 320 grit Kuromaku that I rather like. I also have a recent production Norton 1k which actually acts more like about 500 grit, for me but it does cut furiously fast, and never loads up, and stays flat for a good long while, and it is a pretty big piece of rock for the money, too. Good for before the 1k Chosera. Then my normal film progression is 9, 3, and 1µ grit, and then I go to a three stage lapped and pasted balsa progression. To me, this is the easiest and most consistent way to cheaply get the absolute sharpest edge possible, and a surprisingly comfortable edge, too, when you learn how to use it.

You already have a hodge podge of stones. I, too, think that 90% of all PHIG, or People's Hone of Indeterminate Grit, AKA C12K, are garbage. When they first appeared on the scene they seemed to be pretty good, but now I fear a lot of Chinese homeowners have capitalized on the frenzy and cut up their patio paving stones to sell on fleabay to gullible Americans. If you want ease and consistency, but you for whatever reason do not want to use film, get a good synthetic finisher like the Naniwa Superstone 12k. It's an easy stone to learn. Not as easy as film, but pretty easy. A very fine black arkie for a finisher can work pretty good but not if you don't already have a good edge with bevel well polished, and the stone lapped and burnished quite well. I prefer not to use them, myself and I have a hard time recommending them to a beginner.

Unlike some other honers here I don't regard a GOOD coticule as being as hard to learn as a Jnat or other slurried natural. But still, harder than a good midrange synthetic stone or 3µ film. The advantage of the coticule is you can use it for nearly a single stone solution. Heavy slurry for setting the bevel, then slowly diluting it and backing off the pressure as you go, until finally you are honing under running water on clean stone, and then a finish with lather on the stone or a bit of dish soap, and still lighter and lighter pressure until it feels like the razor doesn't even touch stone at all, and keep going a couple hundred more laps. This is how you coax a 10k or even 12k level edge out of a coti and it takes a while to master this. Again, film or a good synthetic works better for midrange or finish. Also nice big rectangular coticules can be quite pricey.

I'm not sure I understand why changing film is such a chore. But if it really get's your digestion in an uproar, just get a full Naniwa Superstone progression and some good heavy excavators for edge repair or beating an errant blade into submission.

There's no free lunch. IMHO there is a perfect method, but it isn't perfect for you, and that is film, with a synth stone for bevel setting.

You can always just send your razors out for honing, and then run the three stage balsa progression, and then maintain forever with just the .1µ diamond balsa, and never hone again. If your pro does the frequent gymnastics of honing on the edge of the hone to get a frown sharp, or using tape or using tape on part of the razor only, etc etc, you might not be successful with the balsa. Like I said, when a razor is that badly warped, I toss it without a second thought, unless I need some tool steel for something.