Gillette Single Rings with British Patent Numbers

[MacDaddy]

Has any body else noticed how closed this serial number prefix is to King Camp Gillette's initials?

Yes. That was my first thought when I saw that one, too, but those two characters seem just too identical not to have been the same, whether they're 'C's or '0's struck from the same die.

 

[MacDaddy]

Rectangle or square cartouche - seems like government compliance requirements.

What I meant was that it's another difference (from the equivalent marks that use the "D" shield shape) that we may want to keep an eye on. So far it seems that the ones with this strange conglomeration of markings (Brit-style logos and serial placement + American patent date) have also had that G-in-square stamp, too.

It's also worth noting that all of these so far have been F3xxxxx series numbers, too. In fact, looking closer at Dhilip's example, which we currently have up in the main "F" section, I think we need to move it down to this other section. From what I can see of it the patent is actually the American date (enhanced crop below), and it's also an F3xxxxx number with the G-in-square mark. He found his in a case with the British patent statement on the bottom, though.

 

[GBinOZ]

It's also worth noting that all of these so far have been F3xxxxx series numbers, too. In fact, looking closer at Dhilip's example, which we currently have up in the main "F" section, I think we need to move it down to this other section. From what I can see of it the patent is actually the American date (enhanced crop below), and it's also an F3xxxxx number with the G-in-square mark. He found his in a case with the British patent statement on the bottom, though.

Yesterday I sent thekinge a PM asking for clarification on the serial number but he has not yet replied (.....and I am beginning to suspect that he may actually have an entirely separate life totally unrelated to razor collections...). Perhaps we should defer any movement until he can clarify.

 

[GBinOZ]

Here are some photos of the set that I bought and is in transit.



The vendor is a collector in Turkey and thinks that, based on his experience, this is a British set even though it has no patent stamp. He says it was originally bought in France. I included this under the F category as I recall (but can't now find) seeing a post with a serial number on the outer cylinder, no patent on the razor but the British patent on the case that was concluded to be a British set.

 

[GBinOZ]

Here are some photos of the other razor I have in transit.

View attachment 434299View attachment 434300View attachment 434301View attachment 434302View attachment 434303

This is from the same collector in Turkey, and he said it was originally bought in the UK. He is somewhat mystified by the H serial number but had already concluded that it was a separate dating series from the US series of 1918.

 

[alex2363]

Yesterday I sent thekinge a PM asking for clarification on the serial number but he has not yet replied (.....and I am beginning to suspect that he may actually have an entirely separate life totally unrelated to razor collections...). Perhaps we should defer any movement until he can clarify.

He is in the IT field of work in Singapore and travels alot, but he will reply soon.

 

[GBinOZ]

In my previous 2 posts, the photos appeared in the first but only attachment number in the second. I've seen this occasionally on other posts. Anyone know why this happens?

 

[alex2363]

In my previous 2 posts, the photos appeared in the first but only attachment number in the second. I've seen this occasionally on other posts. Anyone know why this happens?

Try putting space in the end of code, the syntax maybe too scrunched in which may make the code one looong syntax.


Example: Too scrunched in
URL666666666666qqwwURL666666666666qqwwURL666666666666qqwwURL666666666666qqww


edit and separate:
URL666666666666qqww--- URL666666666666qqww--- URL666666666666qqww

 

[GBinOZ]

Here is a Single Ring I found by looking at completed listings on eBay.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1918-Gill...D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557



The description is:
BEAUTIFUL ANTIQUE 1918 GILLETTE RAZOR
w/ 2 KING GILLETTE BLUE BLADES NOS & 3 GILLETTE THIN BLADES NOS
1911 #F326528.

Serial number is on the outer cylinder, there is a GinD and the Pat No appear to be the US Patent.

 

[GBinOZ]

I am starting to wonder if the E series means "made in England, the F means "made in France and the G means "made in Germany". There is Gillette advertising showing substantial factories in France and Germany. If they produced razors, where have they gone? Or have they been sitting under our noses all along. The fly in the ointment for this speculation is once again the H series.

For the Paris factory, McKibben states that Gillette was making at least some blades in Paris. The wiki page Gillette_Timeline cites Adams in his book Gillette, The Man and His Wonderful Shaving Device. I do not have that book myself, but apparently Adams says that a French court ruled that the Paris factory did not represent a substantial investment. Presumably that invalidated the patent in France, discouraging any further investment. On the other hand Achim has http://mr-razor.com/Rasierklingen/1913 Box of 10x12 Gillette Blades France.jpg showing what appear to be 1913 blades made in France.

The operation in Germany may have been even less substantial. For example Achim has an ad in German dated ca. 1911. It mentions the Gillette company of Boston and London, but not Germany. Instead the ad mentions a local organization: Grell, a Hamburg importer. That seems unusual if Gillette had a large factory in Germany.

The main weirdness that that would present is why would those razors have been marked with the British patent information, then, rather than the relevant patents in those local jurisdictions if they'd actually been made there.

Good point, and we also have those 1913 blades from Achim marked "FRANCE". I would like to find some hard information about what went on in this period.

Patents have to be worked in each country, that means that the product/razors must be made in the country granting the patents within 3 years. This patent law did not apply to England though, so Gillette was safe over there. But it did apply in France and Gillette only had til the last day of 1905 to produce a razor and site.

Gillette exec Heilborn was in France negotiating with a French cutler to make the razors but the plans fell through after disagreement on terms and a October fire that wiped the machinery in the prospective French building for the razor making. Something had to be done fast, so Gillette sent executive Bittues to France in November to set up a quick production line in France so the patent could be worked before the end of year 1905 deadline. [just 2 months away].

Bittues looked at many buildings in France and settled on [old bike seat maker building] American Saddle Company on 24 Rue Cuachy rd. After a fast installation of machinery from the USA and some rented machinery from the Saddle company, Bittues managed to set up the first ever over seas Gillette factory by the end of the year
[ before the patent deadline].

A few years later [ 1906-09?] , the French courts found that Gillette established the factory only to serve as a Stopgap to protect the patent and was not a serious attempt to make razors and blades......A year after [ 1909?] Gillette moved out of the American saddle plant, Gillette then went with the original French cutler who they first picked to make the razors, but the patent was nullified by the French courts for lack of working.....it seems that they never had a patent after 1906.

Bittuets was then sent to Montreal in 1906 to start a factory there. He stayed on as manager director of Gillette Safety Razor Company of Canada, limited.

In 1907 Gillette director Heilborn was in Germany, he wrote back to Boston that the "Berlin market was growing and we should be manufacturing there soon as possible, and Berlin is a better site than Hamburg".....by the end of 1908 the Berlin factory was set up and making razors and blades. By the same time the finishing touches were being made to the Leicester England plant, by 1909 Gillete had 3 European factories. The London sales office was in charge of all the European business.

Russel Adams book " The Man and his wonderful shaving device" p68-69

This brings me back to my previous question - where are these German made razors and what marks would we look for to assess if we own one?

Now that's a truly strange beast. If it weren't for the U.S. patent date on the inner barrel (below) I would never have even remotely guessed that an American connection was possible there. Even as it is I would be more inclined to believe it was made somewhere else and just marked with the U.S. patent for some reason. I've never seen anything even remotely like that in a clearly American-made Single Ring set, but that exact style of marking (patent date aside) is what we'd consider "normal" from the Leicester plant.

I can't imaging that tooling up to stamp these parts in this radically different way would have been a trivial matter, and I certainly can't see any reason why the Boston plant would have any reason to have stamped razors bound (seemingly exclusively) for the French market any differently than they were stamping their own standard razors -- aside from the possibly legally required "G-inside-D" mark.

I wonder if we're possibly seeing some kind of fallout in the shadow of the French revocation of Gillette's patent rights, if, in fact, Russel is correct on that point. One thing I notice on the later ABC cases is that the entry for France reads "Bts. S. G. du C" where on the older ones it gives the "July 3, 03" date.

I think you may have a viable theory there.............Maybe the nullification of the patents is an indicator. The patent was granted to Gillette
[ or extended beyond the deadline] only for a year or so before it was nullified by French courts. This could have started a big fallout.

The above is my first attempt at multiquotes, so please forgive it's clumsiness. The quotes don't necessarily refer to the previous quote but rather represent a series of thoughts by various members. I read this thread, and various others, many times trying to form an opinion. So I'll run it up the flagpole and see if there are any salutes, or even nods of "eh maybe".

My current opinion is that E series means "made in England, the F means "made in France" and the H means "made in Germany". I think that the G series represents razors made in USA FOR the European market and as such should be classified in the category with the A and B series with the British Patent. IMHO I think the whole mystery revolves around the acquiring, or failure to do so, of enduring patents in France and Germany. I think that those countries produced razors using whatever patent, or no patent, that was available at the time. I think the H series (for Hamburg?? or Heilborn?? or whatever) was produced IN Germany rather than FOR Germany because we have an H razor produced for France (GinD). Only one example I know, but it is early days yet for the correlation.

 

[alex2363]

The above is my first attempt at multiquotes, so please forgive it's clumsiness. The quotes don't necessarily refer to the previous quote but rather represent a series of thoughts by various members. I read this thread, and various others, many times trying to form an opinion. So I'll run it up the flagpole and see if there are any salutes, or even nods of "eh maybe".

My current opinion is that E series means "made in England, the F means "made in France" and the H means "made in Germany". I think that the G series represents razors made in USA FOR the European market and as such should be classified in the category with the A and B series with the British Patent. IMHO I think the whole mystery revolves around the acquiring, or failure to do so, of enduring patents in France and Germany. I think that those countries produced razors using whatever patent, or no patent, that was available at the time. I think the H series (for Hamburg?? or Heilborn?? or whatever) was produced IN Germany rather than FOR Germany because we have an H razor produced for France (GinD). Only one example I know, but it is early days yet for the correlation.

In retrospect they are not thoughts. The information is from top informed B&B collectors that have actual knowledge based on years of posting and sharing experiences from other members alike. I dont personally collect but i have purchased and experienced almost every single Gillette and many other top razors. My information on this thread is from books that are highly regarded in the shave world. I just posted the information based on your question and retrieved it from resources that i credited and from highly regarded members such as Macdaddy, Mblakely , Mr.razor and several others.

 

[GBinOZ]

The intention of my multi-quote post was to try to bring together the opinions and the material referred to by highly regarded members. The project started with the premise that the British Patented razors were made at Leicester and the letter prefixes referred to the country to which they destined. There are many examples of the difficulties is establishing enduring patents in France and Germany, but I found of particular significance the reference made by Alex to Russel Adams book " The Man and his wonderful shaving device" which stated "by the end of 1908 the Berlin factory was set up and making razors and blades. By the same time the finishing touches were being made to the Leicester England plant, by 1909 Gillete had 3 European factories. The London sales office was in charge of all the European business."

MacDaddy raised a question about this possibilty: "why would those razors have been marked with the British patent information, then, rather than the relevant patents in those local jurisdictions if they'd actually been made there."
However, in a development that even surprised MacDaddy, razors were discovered that bear the letter prefixes and double trademark previously attributed to Leicester and the British patent, but with an augmented US patent suffixed with an "N".

So if there were no razors produced in France or Germany, then why would Leicester suddenly start using the US patent? Or if these razors were made in the US why would they use the F prefix rather than continueing to use the B ( and possibly G) prefix as they had previously done? The logical alternative to these questions is, if razors were produced in France and Germany using patents outside their local jurisdiction, then why would they switch patents from British to US, unless that production was after the winding down of Leicester?

The other consideration is the H prefixed razor stamped with the GinD. If this was made in Leicester for the French market then it could be expected that it would have an F prefix as did all the other examples with GinD stamps. But if the F series were made in France then they were complying with their legal requirement, and the single (so far) H prefixed razor may have been made in Germany for the French market.

There has been much discussion, both on this and other threads, on the European patents. The French patents on cases changed from July 8-03 to BTS S.G. du C and the German from June 13-05 to D.R.P No 162438, but why and when forms part of the mystery. My proposed theory is that France and Germany had problems with establishing enduring patents in their own jurisdictions so "temporarily" used other patents pending resolution of those problems which may not have actually acheived a satisfactory resolution.

The purpose of my alternative speculation, and that is all it is, was to prompt discussion from those members more experienced and learned than I whose previous contributions have led me to form this alternative possibility.

 

[GBinOZ]

I find the views and references in these posts to be quite persuasive.

alex2363

Master of the Multi-Quote

Originally Posted by MacDaddy

My supposition is that these razors were made in the Leicester plant prior to WWI. However, it seems highly unlikely that they'd have made so many razors in the short time to go through so many letter prefixes as we've seen in their serial numbers. My own wild conjecture in this area is that the letters instead represented the market that the razor was bound for -- E for England, F for France, G for Germany. Perhaps H was Austria-Hungary, which would have been about the size of France or Germany at the time.
****

Porter that is a good theory. I have a question. Gilette had factories in Germany, France and England. Why would it be beneficial to make these razors for those markets. The shipping would not be cost effective and each country already had a factory to make the razors anyway. Germany,France and England all had their own plants to make razors. Were these probably Gillette subsidiaries made razors that needed this designation code to ship to the appropriate country/market?


alex2363

Master of the Multi-Quote

Originally Posted by MacDaddy
I could certainly be wrong, but I'm not aware of any evidence that those other factories were anything more than blade production plants in those early years prior to WWI. Most of these early factories seemed to be more about Gillette establishing their rights to their patents in those countries, and since the blade was the heart of Gillette's innovation making the blades in-country would have been enough for them to establish their claim.
*****

Porter, the patents working laws varied with each country( Patent working law-which meant that the product had to be worked/manufactured in that country or patent would lapse). According to Gillette counsel and sells dirctor Pelham England did not have such patent law. That meant that Gillette did not have to worry about any foreign patent issues in England. Gillette made razors and blades in the England factory after a high demand for the product was realized in England and Europe in general. So Gillette actually made razors and blades there. It was not just blades.

The worked patent law did apply to France and Gillette did have to hurry up and set up a factory before the Patent deadline. Gillette finally found a small place that was a old bike shop and set up the first foreign factory, just in time to save the patent from revocation. However, the French government figured things out few years later and ruled against the patent because Gillette really just used the factory location as stop gag to protect the patent. Gillette relocated to another location in France to make razors and blades, and they had to oblige to make both razors and blades since the french government were sticklers to this issue.....In this case Gillette most likely did not make razors in France until a few years later.

Germany had many complex patent laws and Gillette had many patents filed there. Gillette was not aware of patent cut off dates due to the many patent filings and the entanglement of infringement/suit court cases. However it did not matter since German law provision stated that if " large demand was supplied goods made abroad" the patent would not be working and revoked. So Gillette could not make razors elsewhere and send them there since it would be a patent working issue. Gillette had no other choice than to make a factory in Germany that made razors and blades. In 1908 razors and blades were being made and shipped out of Berlin factory. At this time the finishing touches were put in the Leicester factory too......so it seems that all 3 countries, England, Germany and France did make razors, not just blades. France did start at a later date due to the working patent issue.

sources: "Cutting Edge" by Gordon Mckibben and "The man and wonderful shaving device" by Russell Adams
****

They are from this thread:

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showth...Stamped-lt-Gillette-gt-Logo-No-Made-in-Info-o


Earlier in this thread:


MacDaddy

Bruce Lee of Wet Shaving

I can't imaging that tooling up to stamp these parts in this radically different way would have been a trivial matter, and I certainly can't see any reason why the Boston plant would have any reason to have stamped razors bound (seemingly exclusively) for the French market any differently than they were stamping their own standard razors -- aside from the possibly legally required "G-inside-D" mark.

I wonder if we're possibly seeing some kind of fallout in the shadow of the French revocation of Gillette's patent rights, if, in fact, Russel is correct on that point. One thing I notice on the later ABC cases is that the entry for France reads "Bts. S. G. du C" where on the older ones it gives the "July 3, 03" date.

I haven't had any luck in tracking down what that "S. G. du C" would have meant -- what you'd expect would be "S. G. D. G." for "sans garantie du gouvernement." My understanding is that this marking indicated that a patent was registered with the French government, but that the government disclaimed any liability for its safe or proper working as French patents were issued "without screening, at the risk of applicants, and without warranty as to the existence, novelty or merit of the invention, or the truth or accuracy of the description."

I have seen some sources who seemed to believe that the S.G.D.G mark meant that it wasn't protected, but as far as I can tell that is incorrect. I almost wonder if Russel made that mistake, but then that would also lead us back to wondering why we'd have these several examples of razors all presumably from the French market.

****End of post***

The "Bts. S. G. du C" also appeared on at least one Single Ring case.

These references and opinions draw me to the speculating that the F razor series was made in the French factory and the H razor series was made in the German Factory.

If the following reference is to be given any creedence then the inference is that the French factory was the first to come on line, followed by the German factory, and lastly Leicester.

In 1907 Gillette director Heilborn was in Germany, he wrote back to Boston that the "Berlin market was growing and we should be manufacturing there soon as possible, and Berlin is a better site than Hamburg".....by the end of 1908 the Berlin factory was set up and making razors and blades. By the same time the finishing touches were being made to the Leicester England plant, by 1909 Gillete had 3 European factories. The London sales office was in charge of all the European business.

Russel Adams book " The Man and his wonderful shaving device" p68-69​

​

​

 

[thekinge]

Yesterday I sent thekinge a PM asking for clarification on the serial number but he has not yet replied (.....and I am beginning to suspect that he may actually have an entirely separate life totally unrelated to razor collections...). Perhaps we should defer any movement until he can clarify.

Apologies George, I was traveling and could not respond earlier. Just logged back into B&B after a while and saw your PMs. I am back in Singapore today and I will send you the correct serial numbers of the two British Single Rings that I own by today.

He is in the IT field of work in Singapore and travels alot, but he will reply soon.

This. Thanks for the cover mate!

 

[MacDaddy]

Sorry not to have been more active in this thread of late, but we're launching several new things at my company and I've been breathing hard just to keep up with reading the forums. Below are a few thoughts that I just put into a PM to George, though that are probably worth sharing here.

Also, George, I'd be very interested to have a better look at the paperwork that you've got coming with that "F" series set above to see if it provides any more clues to the set's origin. It's possible, too, that even though the collector you're getting it from sounds like he's probably on top of things, he might have missed looking for the patent date/number on the top of the inner barrel.

-----

I have a strong suspicion that the gold Single Ring of Achim's with the "G 5031" serial number is much more likely to have been somehow related to the numbering of the very early gold Single Ring of Mark's that Achim's got up on his site. Its actual number doesn't make sense for it to have literally been in the same series as that one, though.

I'm still very suspicious of the notion that the Gillette patent in France was actually invalidated. I'd really like to see some original source material on that, since it seems that Adams is really the only source there at all. Also, unless I'm wrong there isn't a reason, even from what Adams says in his book, to think that Gillette's patent in Germany was at risk.

In case it's of interest, I've been trying to pull together all the various international Gillette patents I can find online. Here are a few that would be germane here:

• The original French patent issued July 3, 1903
• The original German patent issued Aug 2, 1905
• An early French patent (Nov 9, 1905) for a blade sharpening machine
• A slightly later French patent (May 27, 1908) for a slide-on head cover that shows the razor as a three-piece Pocket-Edition-style assembly

 

[mblakele]

In case it's of interest, I've been trying to pull together all the various international Gillette patents I can find online. Here are a few that would be germane here:

• The original French patent issued July 3, 1903
• The original German patent issued Aug 2, 1905
• An early French patent (Nov 9, 1905) for a blade sharpening machine
• A slightly later French patent (May 27, 1908) for a slide-on head cover that shows the razor as a three-piece Pocket-Edition-style assembly

Have you seen the Patents page on the wiki? I have the 1903 French patent there already, and the first UK patent. I will try to add these others too, unless you beat me to it.

You might noticed that the link in the first column is broken for non-USA patents. That is because the patent template generates it automatically as a google link, and google does not have non-USA patents yet. So I have been linking those in the "notes" column, pending a better fix.

 

[MacDaddy]

Have you seen the Patents page on the wiki? I have the 1903 French patent there already, and the first UK patent. I will try to add these others too, unless you beat me to it.

No, I don't remember seeing that page before, but I've got a raft of other Gillette patents from other countries that I can drop in there. I've just been building up a folder of bookmarks as I come across them. They'd have the same template problem as the other international patents on there, since they're also espacenet links, but we can still get 'em captured.

 

[GBinOZ]

Also, George, I'd be very interested to have a better look at the paperwork that you've got coming with that "F" series set above to see if it provides any more clues to the set's origin. It's possible, too, that even though the collector you're getting it from sounds like he's probably on top of things, he might have missed looking for the patent date/number on the top of the inner barrel.

-----

I have a strong suspicion that the gold Single Ring of Achim's with the "G 5031" serial number is much more likely to have been somehow related to the numbering of the very early gold Single Ring of Mark's that Achim's got up on his site. Its actual number doesn't make sense for it to have literally been in the same series as that one, though.

Here is the link to the listing, which is quite comprehennsive and shows the tip of the inner barrel:

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/British-...SgQcy%2BQ8SyXuU%2BNfc%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

Does anyone know Mark Spencer and could ask him if the US patent has the ".N" suffix?

 

[MacDaddy]

Does anyone know Mark Spencer and could ask him if the US patent has the ".N" suffix?

I doubt that it does, but you can ask. Here's the thread he posted about it.

 

[GBinOZ]

I doubt that it does, but you can ask. Here's the thread he posted about it.

Thanks for the link Porter.

That lead to this:
http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showth...had-to-have-it-1906-Gold-Engraved-Single-Ring

and then this:
http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/119710-Fantastic-Old-Gillette-Razor-Set

and this:
http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/79404-Different-British-Old-Style

This is really an information overload - I think my brain has shut down.