First time honing straight razor problems

[Gamma]

For the sake of clarity - I don't know where 'no pressure' fits into bevel setting, but here in my house, I always use some sort of pressure when resetting/setting a bevel.

Pencil grids being lapped off do not guarantee a flat stone - always check with a straight edge.

And as for watching videos - chances are, your razor is not the same exact type or in the same exact condition as the one being demo'd on Youtube. So when one of the 'honemeisters' quote lap counts, circle counts, pressure analysis, etc - it's all moot because each razor is different. You can sit on a 5/8 wedge when honing it without issue, but you can't do that with a 7/8 extra hollow singer.

 

[sfeile]

For the sake of clarity - I don't know where 'no pressure' fits into bevel setting, but here in my house, I always use some sort of pressure when resetting/setting a bevel.

Pencil grids being lapped off do not guarantee a flat stone - always check with a straight edge.

And as for watching videos - chances are, your razor is not the same exact type or in the same exact condition as the one being demo'd on Youtube. So when one of the 'honemeisters' quote lap counts, circle counts, pressure analysis, etc - it's all moot because each razor is different. You can sit on a 5/8 wedge when honing it without issue, but you can't do that with a 7/8 extra hollow singer.

I misspoke when I said no pressure, and clarified in a later post. In relation to what some of us were used to with knife sharpening, it feels almost like no pressure. Certainly not the amount you would use on a dull hunting knife. At least not a hollow grind. I did actually say that in my second post. Not knowing what he had, and going from my own limited experience, was were I was when I offered that suggestion. It wasn't my intent to be misleading.

I agree that pencil grids aren't an exact science, but they are better than not checking at all. Probably should have said straight edge, but being somewhat in-experienced in comparison to many here, it slipped my mind.

I also 100% agree with the counting thing. That's why I never mentioned it. Stone efficiency, razor steel/hardness, all vary between set-ups. 20 laps of a gold dollar on a dmt, isn't going to be the same as 20 laps of a filli on a naniwa.

Just for clarification, I don't think you were singling me out, nor am I offended or anything, I'm just clarifying my thinking of what I wrote. (Text can get misinterpreted.) I'm still learning myself, and really try to pay attention when yourself, Alfredo, Steve and many others post information on techniques.

 

[Razorfaust]

Circle honing with varied pressure is a viable method of honing for someone with some experience. For a beginner I believe its like a runaway freight train. I too early on experimented with this method and found much confusion and disappointment. It is hard to gauge what is happening to your blade when you apply pressure and spasmodic motion to a stone without having the ability to hone that way evenly. I suspect you wind up either putting too much pressure on heel or toe grinding away without doing too much good for the edge. I suggest to start out slow, you need to develop some muscle memory and feel to whats happening here. After getting a flat stone sorted just mark your bevels with a sharpie and do X Strokes with enough pressure to make firm contact with the stone. Make a few strokes and see how the ink is coming off the edge and be mindful of whether or not your grip is favoring toe pressure or heel pressure. At this time try to work on even wear of the marker if possible. This is the beginning take note if your strokes hit out to the edge, too much pressure on an extra hollow your just honing behind it. It boils down to learning to make an effective stroke once that's achieved and your in control, rinse repeat. You have to use your senses in honing and notice changes. Use some magnification optic to check your edge as you progress don't get hung up on how many strokes or any of that jazz as you get better the process becomes more efficient. Even though a straight forward method like an X-Stroke may not provide the speediest result compared to guys that do circles or half strokes what have you, The benefits is that you will learn and get feed back and once you get a properly set bevel, the rest just falls into place fairly effortlessly.

 

[Slash McCoy]

It takes a reasonable amount of pressure to remove a significant amount of steel. Setting the bevel therefore requires pressure, at least in the initial stages. Continuing to use heavy pressure can, with some stones, give you a fin edge. This can be a good thing, when honing one side at a time, in which case the fin is deflected upwards into a burr, and a burr along the full length of the blade tells you that you are down to virgin steel and that the bevel flat on the down side has crossed over the apex. Flipping the razor and doing the other side to the same result, tells you that you have a proper bevel, though there is a burr hanging off the edge that must be removed. Continuing to hone with very light pressure and regular alternating laps is almost guaranteed to remove the burr or a fin edge, given enough laps. Notice I said very light pressure, not no pressure. The weight of the razor alone is SOME pressure.

Many accomplished honers lay their plate or stone on a bench to hone. I prefer to hone in hand, and I recommend that newbies hone in hand, too. It helps to regulate your pressure, both total pressure, and also balance between spine and edge pressure, heel and toe. I suggest honing in hand next time you give it a go. The exception being if/when you do circle strokes or half laps with heavy pressure to set a badly deteriourated bevel or do serious edge repair, which is when pressure is your friend.

Be sure you are always flipping the EDGE out and over at the end of the stroke. If you flip the SPINE out, very likely at some point you will come down on the hone edge first. Also, try not to slap the edge down on the hone. Land it gently.

A cheap ebay USB microscope of 100x or 200x power is a very cost effective purchase.

The worst thing that can happen from using too little pressure is... nothing. If in doubt, lighten up, once the bevel is set. And keep honing until there is some feedback. At the 4k stage you should be undercutting the honing water quite well, and maybe feeling a bit of stiction. At the 8k stage, stiction (when the razor feels like it is sticking to the hone and resisting the honing stroke) should be quite pronounced, and obvious to nearly anyone. When you have good stiction at 8k, rinse the stone clean of all swarf and slurry, and add some shaving lather. Hone in the lather with gradually decreasing pressure for a couple hundred laps. Halfway through, it should feel like the razor is just floating in the lather. Don't be shy about continuing, if it just seems like the right thing to do. Won't hurt anything. What the lather does is form a protective buffer, preventing the 8k stone from leaving 8k scratches. The resulting edge is naturally finer and smoother than the stone would otherwise leave. Get it right, and you can shave off the 8k stone.

As for the paste, my advice is first of all get your 8k edge up to shave ready standards, even if barely. Then forget about red, green, white, black, etc and don't get any of it ever on your regular hanging strop, not even a trace. Go to your local hobby shop and buy a 36" long balsa plank 3" x 1/2" or so. Cut it into 3 pieces. Stick a sheet of sandpaper onto a piece of window glass with a VERY light spray of spray adhesive, being sure to keep all wrinkles and bubbles out as you roll it down. Lap the balsa on the sandpaper until you have a new surface on the entire face. 150 grit or so will work fine. If you like, repeat with 320. Wipe off all sawdust carefully, rub a but with your hand. Apply diamond paste to the balsa SPARINGLY. If it feels like you have enough, whoa, you already have about 5x too much! SPARINGLY I say. a couple of bb's worth is plenty. After an 8k stone you could go with 1u diamond. Then .25u, then .1u. You must be careful to not contaminate one piece of balsa with a coarser grit. So prepare your balsa strops finest first. Fine grit contaminating a coarser grit is no big deal. Rub the diamond deeply into the wood. It must be embedded in the grain, not rolling around on the surface. Strop on the coarsest first, about 50 laps. Wipe the blade carefully before going to the next grit. Finally, use a few pull strokes to eliminate any micro fin or other artifacts on the edge, and then a couple more regular laps. Strop on leather and if you got it right, it will amaze you. If you go 40 or 50 laps after every shave on the .1u only, you will never need to re hone unless you damage the edge. The coarser grits are only needed (usually) for finishing a freshly honed edge. If you buy a 12k stone you can forget about the 1u diamond. 1u and 12k are in the same ballpark, even considering different grit rating systems. In that case you could start with .5u diamond.

Diamond paste lasts a long time when used this way, so don't be afraid to drop a few bucks on it. I guarantee you will like the results better than green/red/black, etc.

Each stage of a progression MUST do its job completely. Subsequent stages CANNOT make up for a previous stage not doing its job. Every stage leaves scratches on the bevel, and those scratches must abrade enough steel away to eliminate the previous stage's scratches.

Be sure to draw the razor slightly across the hone as it travels up and down the hone. This is called the X stroke. Even on a large stone or with lapping film, a bit of x stroke action is a good thing.

 

[Cy-B]

Welcome David! I'm sure someone with more experience than me will chime in soon, but I'll see if I can help a little.

If it was rusted, are you sure you have all of the pits out of the edge?

I learned the hard way of grinding away a lot of a good razor that sharpening a knife, and sharpening a straight are two different animals. Sure the concept is the same, but the technique is a lot different. Without seeing your edge, I can't tell you 100% what you may be doing wrong, but I can tell you some things that I was helped with that got me going.

No pressure. That is a big one. You will roll your edge and grind away a lot of the spine. This can also lead to an uneven bevel.

You may be raising a burr that is causing it to grab your finger, but not quite cut the hairs. Try stropping after your 1k stone. See if that improves the edge. If it does, you most likely had a burr.

Don't waste your time on the 4k or 8k until you get it right off the 1k. All this will do is give you a highly polished dull edge.


I was going to say make sure your stones are flat, but sounds like you already got that one covered. Some pencil lines across the stones when lapping will help you make sure.

Try marking your bevel with a sharpie. This will help you see if you are using an even stroke and how your bevel is progressing.

Like I said, there are guys here with a lot more experience than me, but those were some things that I struggled with. Hope it helps.

It takes a reasonable amount of pressure to remove a significant amount of steel. Setting the bevel therefore requires pressure, at least in the initial stages. Continuing to use heavy pressure can, with some stones, give you a fin edge. This can be a good thing, when honing one side at a time, in which case the fin is deflected upwards into a burr, and a burr along the full length of the blade tells you that you are down to virgin steel and that the bevel flat on the down side has crossed over the apex. Flipping the razor and doing the other side to the same result, tells you that you have a proper bevel, though there is a burr hanging off the edge that must be removed. Continuing to hone with very light pressure and regular alternating laps is almost guaranteed to remove the burr or a fin edge, given enough laps. Notice I said very light pressure, not no pressure. The weight of the razor alone is SOME pressure.

Many accomplished honers lay their plate or stone on a bench to hone. I prefer to hone in hand, and I recommend that newbies hone in hand, too. It helps to regulate your pressure, both total pressure, and also balance between spine and edge pressure, heel and toe. I suggest honing in hand next time you give it a go. The exception being if/when you do circle strokes or half laps with heavy pressure to set a badly deteriourated bevel or do serious edge repair, which is when pressure is your friend.

Be sure you are always flipping the EDGE out and over at the end of the stroke. If you flip the SPINE out, very likely at some point you will come down on the hone edge first. Also, try not to slap the edge down on the hone. Land it gently.

A cheap ebay USB microscope of 100x or 200x power is a very cost effective purchase.

The worst thing that can happen from using too little pressure is... nothing. If in doubt, lighten up, once the bevel is set. And keep honing until there is some feedback. At the 4k stage you should be undercutting the honing water quite well, and maybe feeling a bit of stiction. At the 8k stage, stiction (when the razor feels like it is sticking to the hone and resisting the honing stroke) should be quite pronounced, and obvious to nearly anyone. When you have good stiction at 8k, rinse the stone clean of all swarf and slurry, and add some shaving lather. Hone in the lather with gradually decreasing pressure for a couple hundred laps. Halfway through, it should feel like the razor is just floating in the lather. Don't be shy about continuing, if it just seems like the right thing to do. Won't hurt anything. What the lather does is form a protective buffer, preventing the 8k stone from leaving 8k scratches. The resulting edge is naturally finer and smoother than the stone would otherwise leave. Get it right, and you can shave off the 8k stone.

As for the paste, my advice is first of all get your 8k edge up to shave ready standards, even if barely. Then forget about red, green, white, black, etc and don't get any of it ever on your regular hanging strop, not even a trace. Go to your local hobby shop and buy a 36" long balsa plank 3" x 1/2" or so. Cut it into 3 pieces. Stick a sheet of sandpaper onto a piece of window glass with a VERY light spray of spray adhesive, being sure to keep all wrinkles and bubbles out as you roll it down. Lap the balsa on the sandpaper until you have a new surface on the entire face. 150 grit or so will work fine. If you like, repeat with 320. Wipe off all sawdust carefully, rub a but with your hand. Apply diamond paste to the balsa SPARINGLY. If it feels like you have enough, whoa, you already have about 5x too much! SPARINGLY I say. a couple of bb's worth is plenty. After an 8k stone you could go with 1u diamond. Then .25u, then .1u. You must be careful to not contaminate one piece of balsa with a coarser grit. So prepare your balsa strops finest first. Fine grit contaminating a coarser grit is no big deal. Rub the diamond deeply into the wood. It must be embedded in the grain, not rolling around on the surface. Strop on the coarsest first, about 50 laps. Wipe the blade carefully before going to the next grit. Finally, use a few pull strokes to eliminate any micro fin or other artifacts on the edge, and then a couple more regular laps. Strop on leather and if you got it right, it will amaze you. If you go 40 or 50 laps after every shave on the .1u only, you will never need to re hone unless you damage the edge. The coarser grits are only needed (usually) for finishing a freshly honed edge. If you buy a 12k stone you can forget about the 1u diamond. 1u and 12k are in the same ballpark, even considering different grit rating systems. In that case you could start with .5u diamond.

Diamond paste lasts a long time when used this way, so don't be afraid to drop a few bucks on it. I guarantee you will like the results better than green/red/black, etc.

Each stage of a progression MUST do its job completely. Subsequent stages CANNOT make up for a previous stage not doing its job. Every stage leaves scratches on the bevel, and those scratches must abrade enough steel away to eliminate the previous stage's scratches.

Be sure to draw the razor slightly across the hone as it travels up and down the hone. This is called the X stroke. Even on a large stone or with lapping film, a bit of x stroke action is a good thing.

I assume I said Thank You but in case I didn't I want to tell you now that I appreciate all the help.
I have not tried the shaving soap on the stone yet but I can tell you that the putting the 1 micron paste on it did help. New 12k stone is ordered by the way.
From what I can tell and correct me if you think I'm wrong. The stainless steel (red deer) takes much less effort to hone then the carbon steel (Gold Dollar). With very little effort I was able to get a decent edge on the red deer but the same amount seems to do very little on the gold dollar from what I could tell.
I'm not very good with this site so I keep losing people and so if I have not said Thank you to anyone it is because I have lost you on here and in no way do I mean not to say thank you to everyone.

 

[Cy-B]

Ok, maybe just a little pressure, but virtually none compared to what most people are used to when sharpening a knife. Just remember that unless you are honing a full wedge grind, its almost like you are honing a sheet of paper. You push too hard and you will flex it. Then you aren't removing the metal the way you are intending to.

Plus Mr. Abrams has done a few thousand, so it's a little easier for him to know what is a correct pressure. My problem came from my hands being so damaged that when I "thought" I was being gentle I was still like a bull in a china shop.

Have you seen the pin test to see if you are rolling the edge/making a burr? Could be a quick way to test. Very gently use the point of a pin and come across your edge. Like a pushing motion like you were drawing a line from the spine out across the edge. (I know that's not the most excellent description.)

If I did not say thank you before I would like to take this time to say thank you. I apologize if I didn't before.

 

[Cy-B]

I got my razor back today and tried it. The edge has been straightened out just fine and it appears it is ready to be put on the new 12k stone I'll be getting by 8pm tonight. Can't wait to try it after that.

 

[sfeile]

If I did not say thank you before I would like to take this time to say thank you. I apologize if I didn't before.

You did, and no worries. I wish I could have gotten a better edge on the one you sent me, but it was just fighting me the whole time.

 

[Cy-B]

You did, and no worries. I wish I could have gotten a better edge on the one you sent me, but it was just fighting me the whole time.

You did a good job on straightening out the edge and I think all I need to do is run it over my new stone when it arrives, with luck that will do it.

 

[Cy-B]

You did a good job on straightening out the edge and I think all I need to do is run it over my new stone when it arrives, with luck that will do it.

Putting on the 12k did not do it. What do you think should be done?

 

[sfeile]

Putting on the 12k did not do it. What do you think should be done?

I still think the steel is too soft on that particular razor. I tried finishing it on my J-nats and it just would not take a keen edge. I sharpened another razor right after trying yours on the same setup and it was laser sharp.

That's why I mentioned it may not all be your technique, it may just be that particular razor.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Okay. You have a rock. You have a razor. You have plenty of advice from guys who want to see you succeed. Ask yourself what might be wrong. Why isn't it working? What is the weakest link? The truth will set you free. It is right before you. It looks back at you when you look in the mirror. You have met the enemy, as we all did. And he is us.

Now, on to specifics.

Is the razor sharp enough, with a bevel refined enough, to even benefit from your 12k? At 6k or 8k you should be able to treetop at least one or two hairs at 1/8" above the skin. You should furthermore be able to shave your face, though it would be unrealistic to expect the shave to be all that great. If the previous stage did not max out the stone or film, then you need to back up a stage or two. It happens. No biggie. Just gitter done.

Did you lap your 12k stone?
If you did not lap your stone, then lap your stone.

Do you hone in hand, or on a bench?
If you are honing on a bench, switch to in hand honing.
If you are honing in hand, make sure you are using light pressure and keeping the stone clean, but never dry. The stone should seem as if it is floating in zero gravity, so don't let your arm or hand brace up against your body or any object. By the 12k stage, your pressure should only be the weight of the razor and maybe a finger's weight to start, and only the weight of the razor or even a hair less, on the final few dozen laps. Pressure is your enemy when finishing.

Are you using tape? Unless you have measured the bevel angle and found it to be too acute, don't use tape. If you are, possibly it is compressing on you, or wearing and thus changing your honing angle as you hone. If you did use tape, go back to your bevel setter and reset the bevel using the burr method. Get it right this time, because you don't want to keep resetting the bevel all the time. It is wasteful of steel.

Are you keeping the spine on the hone, and only flipping the edge over as you turn and go the other way? The turn is a common place in the honing stroke to mess up.

Are you keeping the shoulder from riding up on the hone? If the shoulder rides up on the hone, you are moslty just hitting the toe.

Are you using a bit of an x stroke? You should. Even on a wide stone.

What is your indication that you have maxed out the 12k? Because obviosly, you have not. Why did you stop honing? Why are you not still honing, now, if the razor is not yet sharp? If everything else is as it should be, then you simply are not finishing the job. Check your working methods, correct them if they are not as they should be, and keep honing. It's not done until it is done. Look for treetopping a couple of hairs at 1/4" above the skin, for an indication of sharpness, after the 12k stage. That would be an okay 12k edge, normally.

If you go about it in just whatever way you think "ought" to work, you will probably be disappointed. As many little blue handles as there are in all the landfills of the world, such shall be the depth of your disappointment. As empty as all the goo cans buried there with them, so shall your heart be empty of joy when you contemplate your letter opener sharp edge on your otherwise perfectly good razor. As strongly as the masses have been deceived by the giant men's grooming supply megacorporations selling multiblade shaving systems, so are you deceiving yourself if you think something other than your technique is causing your honing to fail. Empty your mind of preconceived notions. Let all the stubborn thoughts drift upon the wind and scatter, diluted, to the four corners of the world. Elevate your mind, become one with razor and stone. Snatch the pebble from my hand... time for you to hone.

 

[sfeile]

Okay. You have a rock. You have a razor. You have plenty of advice from guys who want to see you succeed. Ask yourself what might be wrong. Why isn't it working? What is the weakest link? The truth will set you free. It is right before you. It looks back at you when you look in the mirror. You have met the enemy, as we all did. And he is us.

Now, on to specifics.

Is the razor sharp enough, with a bevel refined enough, to even benefit from your 12k? At 6k or 8k you should be able to treetop at least one or two hairs at 1/8" above the skin. You should furthermore be able to shave your face, though it would be unrealistic to expect the shave to be all that great. If the previous stage did not max out the stone or film, then you need to back up a stage or two. It happens. No biggie. Just gitter done.

Did you lap your 12k stone?
If you did not lap your stone, then lap your stone.

Do you hone in hand, or on a bench?
If you are honing on a bench, switch to in hand honing.
If you are honing in hand, make sure you are using light pressure and keeping the stone clean, but never dry. The stone should seem as if it is floating in zero gravity, so don't let your arm or hand brace up against your body or any object. By the 12k stage, your pressure should only be the weight of the razor and maybe a finger's weight to start, and only the weight of the razor or even a hair less, on the final few dozen laps. Pressure is your enemy when finishing.

Are you using tape? Unless you have measured the bevel angle and found it to be too acute, don't use tape. If you are, possibly it is compressing on you, or wearing and thus changing your honing angle as you hone. If you did use tape, go back to your bevel setter and reset the bevel using the burr method. Get it right this time, because you don't want to keep resetting the bevel all the time. It is wasteful of steel.

Are you keeping the spine on the hone, and only flipping the edge over as you turn and go the other way? The turn is a common place in the honing stroke to mess up.

Are you keeping the shoulder from riding up on the hone? If the shoulder rides up on the hone, you are moslty just hitting the toe.

Are you using a bit of an x stroke? You should. Even on a wide stone.

What is your indication that you have maxed out the 12k? Because obviosly, you have not. Why did you stop honing? Why are you not still honing, now, if the razor is not yet sharp? If everything else is as it should be, then you simply are not finishing the job. Check your working methods, correct them if they are not as they should be, and keep honing. It's not done until it is done. Look for treetopping a couple of hairs at 1/4" above the skin, for an indication of sharpness, after the 12k stage. That would be an okay 12k edge, normally.

If you go about it in just whatever way you think "ought" to work, you will probably be disappointed. As many little blue handles as there are in all the landfills of the world, such shall be the depth of your disappointment. As empty as all the goo cans buried there with them, so shall your heart be empty of joy when you contemplate your letter opener sharp edge on your otherwise perfectly good razor. As strongly as the masses have been deceived by the giant men's grooming supply megacorporations selling multiblade shaving systems, so are you deceiving yourself if you think something other than your technique is causing your honing to fail. Empty your mind of preconceived notions. Let all the stubborn thoughts drift upon the wind and scatter, diluted, to the four corners of the world. Elevate your mind, become one with razor and stone. Snatch the pebble from my hand... time for you to hone.

Hi Slash.

The razor he is talking about in that last posting, I actually tried to put an edge on. It is an extremely soft blade and doesn't want to take anything higher than a 5K edge. I leveled out the edge and set a good bevel on it. I got it up to the 5K and it just wouldn't get any better than that.

8K actually took it a step down. Got it back and tried a J-nat on slurry, and still no improvement at all.
It seems the edge is so soft that when it gets that thin it actually flexes or rolls a little bit instead of staying firm and getting sharper.
Kind of like trying to put a good edge on a cheap kitchen knife, it will get to a point, then just won't go any further.

I did everything I knew to do with it, but I just couldn't get it any better, so I believe in this case it isn't his technique or honing equipment.

Your advice is spot on however, and definitely worth knowing, I just don't think it is going to make a difference on this particular razor. I think the steel is the weak link in this instance.

 

[Cy-B]

Okay. You have a rock. You have a razor. You have plenty of advice from guys who want to see you succeed. Ask yourself what might be wrong. Why isn't it working? What is the weakest link? The truth will set you free. It is right before you. It looks back at you when you look in the mirror. You have met the enemy, as we all did. And he is us.

Now, on to specifics.

Is the razor sharp enough, with a bevel refined enough, to even benefit from your 12k? At 6k or 8k you should be able to treetop at least one or two hairs at 1/8" above the skin. You should furthermore be able to shave your face, though it would be unrealistic to expect the shave to be all that great. If the previous stage did not max out the stone or film, then you need to back up a stage or two. It happens. No biggie. Just gitter done.

Did you lap your 12k stone?
If you did not lap your stone, then lap your stone.

Do you hone in hand, or on a bench?
If you are honing on a bench, switch to in hand honing.
If you are honing in hand, make sure you are using light pressure and keeping the stone clean, but never dry. The stone should seem as if it is floating in zero gravity, so don't let your arm or hand brace up against your body or any object. By the 12k stage, your pressure should only be the weight of the razor and maybe a finger's weight to start, and only the weight of the razor or even a hair less, on the final few dozen laps. Pressure is your enemy when finishing.

Are you using tape? Unless you have measured the bevel angle and found it to be too acute, don't use tape. If you are, possibly it is compressing on you, or wearing and thus changing your honing angle as you hone. If you did use tape, go back to your bevel setter and reset the bevel using the burr method. Get it right this time, because you don't want to keep resetting the bevel all the time. It is wasteful of steel.

Are you keeping the spine on the hone, and only flipping the edge over as you turn and go the other way? The turn is a common place in the honing stroke to mess up.

Are you keeping the shoulder from riding up on the hone? If the shoulder rides up on the hone, you are moslty just hitting the toe.

Are you using a bit of an x stroke? You should. Even on a wide stone.

What is your indication that you have maxed out the 12k? Because obviosly, you have not. Why did you stop honing? Why are you not still honing, now, if the razor is not yet sharp? If everything else is as it should be, then you simply are not finishing the job. Check your working methods, correct them if they are not as they should be, and keep honing. It's not done until it is done. Look for treetopping a couple of hairs at 1/4" above the skin, for an indication of sharpness, after the 12k stage. That would be an okay 12k edge, normally.

If you go about it in just whatever way you think "ought" to work, you will probably be disappointed. As many little blue handles as there are in all the landfills of the world, such shall be the depth of your disappointment. As empty as all the goo cans buried there with them, so shall your heart be empty of joy when you contemplate your letter opener sharp edge on your otherwise perfectly good razor. As strongly as the masses have been deceived by the giant men's grooming supply megacorporations selling multiblade shaving systems, so are you deceiving yourself if you think something other than your technique is causing your honing to fail. Empty your mind of preconceived notions. Let all the stubborn thoughts drift upon the wind and scatter, diluted, to the four corners of the world. Elevate your mind, become one with razor and stone. Snatch the pebble from my hand... time for you to hone.

You should furthermore be able to shave your face, though it would be unrealistic to expect the shave to be all that great. Tried it and it was the almost the worst shave I have ever had other than from a $6.00 straight that was a Todd Sweeney replica and not really meant to be shaved with.

Are you keeping the shoulder from riding up on the hone?
To prevent this I keep my finger in a spot so it doesn't.

Did you lap your 12k stone? Nope, hate to say this but don't know how.

I assumed that when I got it back the bevel was set so I wasn't worried about it but after using the 12k for 150 swipes on both sides it didn't have much of an edge and so I went back to your previous advice. I started over as if I had just taken it off the buffer (didn't put on buffer though). Started with less than a 1k, then up to the 1k, 3k, 6k (still has some paste on it) and then the new 12k. Didn't seem too sharp but took it to the strop and 1 micron paste. Figured for giggles and grins I'd do a hair test, wow. Often I can hear a slight scrap noise as the razor hits the hair. Not even a slight noise as the razor hit the first hair and cut it off slick as can be.

Did a shave test and it appears this is now my third sharpest razor. Most the the time I need to go both with the hair and against the hair to get a decent shave, went with the hair once and it was smooth as can be (I have my GF run her hand over as a test). I'll see if it holds this edge for long.
My two best razors are carbon steel as opposed to this stainless steel and worked on a lot more than this one.
I appreciate all the help, helped drastically.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Hi Slash.

The razor he is talking about in that last posting, I actually tried to put an edge on. It is an extremely soft blade and doesn't want to take anything higher than a 5K edge. I leveled out the edge and set a good bevel on it. I got it up to the 5K and it just wouldn't get any better than that.

8K actually took it a step down. Got it back and tried a J-nat on slurry, and still no improvement at all.
It seems the edge is so soft that when it gets that thin it actually flexes or rolls a little bit instead of staying firm and getting sharper.
Kind of like trying to put a good edge on a cheap kitchen knife, it will get to a point, then just won't go any further.

I did everything I knew to do with it, but I just couldn't get it any better, so I believe in this case it isn't his technique or honing equipment.

Your advice is spot on however, and definitely worth knowing, I just don't think it is going to make a difference on this particular razor. I think the steel is the weak link in this instance.

Ah, now I remember. That's the one that got abused on the buffer. Well, apparently he has it shaving, now. Maybe it was just a question of getting rid of all the softened steel at the edge. Most interesting. I got to remember that, next time I suspect the edge temper is pulled on a razor I am trying to hone.

 

[sfeile]

Ah, now I remember. That's the one that got abused on the buffer. Well, apparently he has it shaving, now. Maybe it was just a question of getting rid of all the softened steel at the edge. Most interesting. I got to remember that, next time I suspect the edge temper is pulled on a razor I am trying to hone.

That's the one. I didn't see any discoloration on it, so I didn't think it was a temper issue, but the blade itself. If he's got it shaving though, maybe it was just the edge and I gave up on it too early.

That's one of those iffy situations though. My own razor, I might have kept going, but being someone else's, I didn't feel comfortable removing so much steel.

 

[Cy-B]

Hi Slash.

The razor he is talking about in that last posting, I actually tried to put an edge on. It is an extremely soft blade and doesn't want to take anything higher than a 5K edge. I leveled out the edge and set a good bevel on it. I got it up to the 5K and it just wouldn't get any better than that.

8K actually took it a step down. Got it back and tried a J-nat on slurry, and still no improvement at all.
It seems the edge is so soft that when it gets that thin it actually flexes or rolls a little bit instead of staying firm and getting sharper.
Kind of like trying to put a good edge on a cheap kitchen knife, it will get to a point, then just won't go any further.

I did everything I knew to do with it, but I just couldn't get it any better, so I believe in this case it isn't his technique or honing equipment.

Your advice is spot on however, and definitely worth knowing, I just don't think it is going to make a difference on this particular razor. I think the steel is the weak link in this instance.

I did take off a goodly amount figuring I had nothing to lose. I'll let you know if it keeps this edge for long or not.




I'm tempted to

That's the one. I didn't see any discoloration on it, so I didn't think it was a temper issue, but the blade itself. If he's got it shaving though, maybe it was just the edge and I gave up on it too early.

That's one of those iffy situations though. My own razor, I might have kept going, but being someone else's, I didn't feel comfortable removing so much steel.

 

[Cy-B]

Hi Slash.

The razor he is talking about in that last posting, I actually tried to put an edge on. It is an extremely soft blade and doesn't want to take anything higher than a 5K edge. I leveled out the edge and set a good bevel on it. I got it up to the 5K and it just wouldn't get any better than that.

8K actually took it a step down. Got it back and tried a J-nat on slurry, and still no improvement at all.
It seems the edge is so soft that when it gets that thin it actually flexes or rolls a little bit instead of staying firm and getting sharper.
Kind of like trying to put a good edge on a cheap kitchen knife, it will get to a point, then just won't go any further.

I did everything I knew to do with it, but I just couldn't get it any better, so I believe in this case it isn't his technique or honing equipment.

Your advice is spot on however, and definitely worth knowing, I just don't think it is going to make a difference on this particular razor. I think the steel is the weak link in this instance.

You must have did a goodly amount on that razor, I bought another like it from the same source and started to work on it last night (partial insomnia mixed with OCD) took it to the Arkansas stone (220, 600, 1000) twice and then to the 6k and the new 12k. stropped it. Okay, figured it should be close to the other one but it wasn't, to make a long story short it took me most of the night and I just finished up with it now. So, I can only figure you did a lot of work on the other one. This one is not as good at the one you worked on but close enough that I would not mind shaving with it.

I thought I was doing enough laps on the stones. What do you consider a reasonable amount of swipes per side when going from 220 - 600 - 1,000 then 6,000 and finally to the 12,000.

Also, is it possible they do something at the factory that makes the edge soft and until a person gets past a certain point it doesn't take an edge? These came from Pakistan, just asking.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Pakistan blades are notorious. Most of us avoid them totally.

 

[Cy-B]

Pakistan blades are notorious. Most of us avoid them totally.

That actually makes me feel better since I now have two that I would shave with and not have any hesitation to do so. Kinda answers another question but I'm still not sure. I have been sitting on the fence trying to decide if I should purchase a Dovo, Boker or stick with what I have.