Excalibur Club - Blade Longevity DE, SE and Injector

[MisfitWy23]

Imperfections, rough spots, wear down during use making the blade smoother, even sharper? While the cutting of whiskers works to dull the blade, maybe the blade gliding against the skin while shaving helps mitigate that by acting somewhat as a hone? Maybe the wearing of the polymer and hardness coating off the edge makes the blade a little sharper? Maybe your mind is expecting the blade to get duller faster, and when it doesn't your mind fools you into thinking its getting sharper. Maybe your wife is changing the blade every day, either because she is using it without your knowledge, or because she's playing with your mind.

 

[DonMac]

Imperfections, rough spots, wear down during use making the blade smoother, even sharper? While the cutting of whiskers works to dull the blade, maybe the blade gliding against the skin while shaving helps mitigate that by acting somewhat as a hone? Maybe the wearing of the polymer and hardness coating off the edge makes the blade a little sharper? Maybe your mind is expecting the blade to get duller faster, and when it doesn't your mind fools you into thinking its getting sharper. Maybe your wife is changing the blade every day, either because she is using it without your knowledge, or because she's playing with your mind.

Nope. I suspect it's something more rational, like it's demon possessed. I am going to try the exorcism route or the holy water and see if the water boils when I insert the razor. Oops gotta go, I think I hear the water boiling.

 

[jamesspo]

Quite seriously, I am surprised that the blade is performing better now than when I first started using it. How can that possibly be?
I am very picky with my shaving ritual, and will not tolerate even a slightly dull blade.
I wish we had a scientist or mechanical engineer, or some other expert to explain how that could happen, as it defies logic.

I'm an engineer (EE, but ME and EE are the same where it matters). I've also got a good knowledge of metallurgy, as my dad is a metallurgist (with a degree in Physics), and we've talked metallurgy for 40 years .

The blade isn't getting sharper. There's no mechanism by which it could get sharper over the long term (in the short term, there may be some strop-like effects at certain points in the blade's life that may lead to better performance). There are basically two things occurring when a blade dulls. First is mechanical breakdown of the edge itself. This is due the material not be strong enough to withstand the forces applied to it. These forces tend to compress and/or folder over the blade edge, or just completely break it off. Both lead to it being less sharp. The second major mechanism is abrasion. This is microscopic removal of material from the edge, slowly rounding the point.

This all said, even with a lot of use, and the inevitable reduction in sharpness, the blade can remain "sharp enough" for a very long time, to the extent that you can forestall the mechanical and abrasion issues. The blade itself is a factor, of course, although there are not likely to be huge differences between blades. There are competing goals when making something sharp that has to do real work. To get sharper, you have to have a hard steel. Unfortunately, the atomic structures in the metal required to make it hard make the metal less ductile and more brittle. This makes the edge easier to break. So there are competing goals. Good edges reach an ideal compromise between hardness and strength. So, is the P74 inherently better in this regard? That was certainly the marketing pitch at the time these blades were made because of the Tungsten used (I don't know if that was alloyed with the steel itself, or just a coating, or maybe even infused on the edge). Regardless, the tungsten is there to both increase hardness and resistance to abrasion.

I think what you're seeing here is just the blade continuing to be sharp. Remember, you're not judging the sharpness here with an objective measure (which would be precisely measuring the force of cutting a reference media). Your observation basically comes down to "is the blade sharp enough to cut through all of the hairs with acceptable force?". There are lots of random variables here. Small differences in prep, and probably other unknowns could lower the required cutting force for your hair on a given day, resulting in the impression of a sharper blade. I see this on a constant basis as my workout varies (and thus the amount of sweating my face endures). More sweating, better beard prep, higher perceived blade sharpness. This difference day to day can be substantial.

 

[MuhleShaver]

I haven't posted on this thread for a while. I've got several blades in play at the moment, all of which are still shaving admirably. My Personna Red is at 31 shaves now and is still sharp and extremely smooth. It seems as though it has a good amount of life left. The Gillette 7 O'clock Yellow is at shave 19 and still sharp. However, it's not my favorite blade as it still seems somewhat rough to me - quite the contrast to the 7 O'Clock black which was smooth from the beginning (YMMV).

Recently I've been using a Feather blade in the Muhle R41 and, contrary to most advice about shaving angle I've been using it with the steep angle and currently have gotten 12 shaves out of it. The blade will probably not last as long as if I'd used the shallow angle, but it's just now reaching a very smooth state, so it probably has at least an equal number of shaves remaining. This is the first time I'd used a Feather blade and it shaves very well in the R41 with the steep angle so I wanted to see how far I could take it.

 

[MisfitWy23]

I'm an engineer (EE, but ME and EE are the same where it matters). I've also got a good knowledge of metallurgy, as my dad is a metallurgist (with a degree in Physics), and we've talked metallurgy for 40 years .

That's the thing about engineering and science, it's not as fun as speculation, guesses and myth. Science may even convince you you're not getting a good shave when your experience tells you otherwise. It's surprising a learned man like James is the founder of this club when his knowledge of physics should tell him you need a fresh blade everyday for optimal sharpness.

Just kiddin', James. But I got the impression that DonMac's experience is consistent over multiple shaves, making it less likely that it's due to variations in prep and things. Unless he's continuing to get better day after day even after how ever long he's been shaving.

There are lots of random variables here. Small differences in prep, and probably other unknowns could lower the required cutting force for your hair on a given day, resulting in the impression of a sharper blade.

Also, how long does it take the coatings to wear down? I could be totally off, but part of my theory is that a heavy coating of tungsten, polymers, and such on a sharp edge could make it less sharp. So the edge could actually become sharper as they wear down, and at the same time the hardness coating could keep the edge from deforming or folding back while in use. I guess the thickness of the coatings are supposedly negligible, but has the technology always been there, or has it always been cost effective, to precisely control the exact thickness of the coatings so that they didn't perceptively affect the sharpness of the edge? (I'm not prepared to get into a discussion of the brittleness, hardness, ductility, or whatever of the various coatings with you, I know I'd lose.)

Right now I'm in the middle of my own little test. I'm trying out what seem to me to be the roughest blades I've ever tried. If I was normal, I'd probably throw them out, but I can't stand to waste the $1.25 I spent for a 10 pack of these.



From what I read on the forum there are different versions of these. It seems that if you get ones like these with "PLATINUM" in all caps some people think they're great. Apparently the mixed case "Platinum" like mine aren't. Anyway I completed what I think was my 12 shave with the blade, and I think it was the best shave with that blade yet. So I'll give it about another dozen and try to figure out if it really is smoothing out, or if my mind is just gone.

 

[jamesspo]

That's the thing about engineering and science, it's not as fun as speculation, guesses and myth. Science may even convince you you're not getting a good shave when your experience tells you otherwise. It's surprising a learned man like James is the founder of this club when his knowledge of physics should tell him you need a fresh blade everyday for optimal sharpness.

Just kiddin', James. But I got the impression that DonMac's experience is consistent over multiple shaves, making it less likely that it's due to variations in prep and things. Unless he's continuing to get better day after day even after how ever long he's been shaving.

Actually it's science and engineering that brings me to the very core of what this club is about. To be a good engineer, one of the first things you have to do is to learn to be objective and how to turn off all of that evolved pattern matching and correlation that the human brain so eagerly wants to do. We see patterns and trends in everything. Most of them are totally bogus (that's the official scientific term, of course). I don't doubt DonMac's feeling a sharper blade...but as I mentioned, what's being observed is the outcome of the shave, and depending on how close his attention was to the shave, possibly how much force was required to get the blade through the hair (that's really tough to feel, however). The problem is that shaving is a relatively course measurement of sharpness. It's a almost a true/false answer to a free form question. In my observations of my own shaves it doesn't take very much difference in prep to make a big difference in how sharp the blade feels, and in the work required to get to a given result. Beyond that, I've had anomalies along the way of sufficient magnitude that I had to work a fair bit harder than normal to get the shave to my "acceptable" level. Next day, no trouble at all and the blade felt sharp. It's very unlikely that the properties of the blade got worse, then better over a day. Much more likely is that the hair was harder to cut for some reason. I suspect DonMac's experiencing similar differences in hair stiffness. Why? Now that's a lot harder to answer, but it's probably easier to explain prep and technique differences over time than a blade getting sharper (again, in the long term - short term improvements I think are quite possible).

Also, how long does it take the coatings to wear down? I could be totally off, but part of my theory is that a heavy coating of tungsten, polymers, and such on a sharp edge could make it less sharp. So the edge could actually become sharper as they wear down, and at the same time the hardness coating could keep the edge from deforming or folding back while in use. I guess the thickness of the coatings are supposedly negligible, but has the technology always been there, or has it always been cost effective, to precisely control the exact thickness of the coatings so that they didn't perceptively affect the sharpness of the edge? (I'm not prepared to get into a discussion of the brittleness, hardness, ductility, or whatever of the various coatings with you, I know I'd lose.)

I'm not sure on that. I never take the blades out of my razors for their lifespan under normal circumstances. I'll have to take a look at one with a loupe to see if I can observe it wearing off. If it's on the order of days, I don't recall ever feeling any difference. That said, I do agree that the coatings may well reduce sharpness. They're just sprayed on, so a lot of randomness in application thickness would be possible.

Right now I'm in the middle of my own little test. I'm trying out what seem to me to be the roughest blades I've ever tried. If I was normal, I'd probably throw them out, but I can't stand to waste the $1.25 I spent for a 10 pack of these.

From what I read on the forum there are different versions of these. It seems that if you get ones like these with "PLATINUM" in all caps some people think they're great. Apparently the mixed case "Platinum" like mine aren't. Anyway I completed what I think was my 12 shave with the blade, and I think it was the best shave with that blade yet. So I'll give it about another dozen and try to figure out if it really is smoothing out, or if my mind is just gone.

No experience with those, but I haven't used many vintage blades. I'm fairly doubtful that vintage blades are in any way magical or different than today's blades, but honestly I haven't tried enough to really qualify that opinion.

 

[MisfitWy23]

No experience with those, but I haven't used many vintage blades. I'm fairly doubtful that vintage blades are in any way magical or different than today's blades, but honestly I haven't tried enough to really qualify that opinion.

These are the only vintage blades I've tried. I just couldn't pass them up for the price. But there's most likely a reason they're not selling for the price of the Personna tungstens.

Actually I have shaved with vintage blades when they weren't vintage. If I'm not mistaken, I can remember buying Gillette carbon steel blades new, but for the most part I've just bought the Personna generic "barbers" for as long as I can remember and never thought there was a big difference between blades.

But I thought with all the cost cutting measures and things today, manufacturers may have got it down more to a science how to more evenly apply the coatings and use the least amount of materials possible, resulting in smoother and possibly sharper first shaves, but perhaps faster wear of the edge itself.

But you're correct that there are probably so many different factors, variables, and expectations that your mileage will always vary. (I generally prefer to say your "experience" may vary. But I think "mileage" may actually be fitting in the Excalibur club, though I've never actually tried to measure the actual mileage I get on a blade, I'd have to figure out the average length of each stroke I take, multiply it by the number of strokes per shave, and then the number of shaves per blade, and convert to miles. )

 

[DonMac]

Jamesspo,

Thank you for the well reasoned scientific explanation. I am sure you are correct. Matter of fact, after giving it some thought, I believe when using a blade with a high number of shaves, I may subconsciously pay more attention to prep expecting that that the blade is gradually degrading and unconsciously prep more thoroughly.

I still like the idea of a demon blade, exorcism and holy water, as it's a lot more exciting than scientific reality. Oh well! By the way the water I heard boiling was for my tea.

 

[bosseb]

Jamesspo,

Thank you for the well reasoned scientific explanation. I am sure you are correct. Matter of fact, after giving it some thought, I believe when using a blade with a high number of shaves, I may subconsciously pay more attention to prep expecting that that the blade is gradually degrading and unconsciously prep more thoroughly.

I still like the idea of a demon blade, exorcism and holy water, as it's a lot more exciting than scientific reality. Oh well! By the way the water I heard boiling was for my tea.

IMHO the mellowing blade teaches the shaver a lot about how to better his technique, including the prep and skin care between shaves.

I have very consciously made not so subtle changes to my shaving during the long runs. I now realize that these changes have had a lot of impact on my every day shaving. I am now able to enjoy my shaves a lot more than before. It is quite clear to me that the number of shaves out of a blade is a good metric of how well developed the shaving technique is. A well developed technique is the main factor for enjoyable and effortless shaves.

 

[BaldSwede]

Here's a photo of my first Excalibur attempt:


As you can see I even got the Excalibur logbook to keep track
I started with the Futur set at 1.5 and slowly dialled up to 3 during this run. Shave #6 was a real bloodbath as the Futur has a tendency to catch some of my skin defects. I really have to think about my technique when using this razor. I ended up doing 14 shaves with the GSB before it was done. Not much compared to other members here, but a new record for me. I have not went past 6 shaves with GSB in any razor before.
The following runs were:
GSB in Merkur 37C: 5 shaves
GSB in Merkur 37C: 6 shaves
Voskhod in IDEAL adjustable: 11 shaves
Gillette Super Platinum in Fatip Grande: 5 shaves
Next: TBD

About my shaving:
I've been wetshaving for many years, gradually moving down in number of blades, using only DE razors for the last few years.
I've started to 3017 soaps and creams and this has really improved my shaving.
Like my fellow Viking Bosse I live in a dry climate and prep and skin care is essential. Thanks bosseb for pointing this out.

Now, on to choose the next blade/razor. See you soon!

 

[lloydrm]

I have also experienced the blade "getting sharper" sensation and got me wondering. I don't know about you guys but I don't like the feel of cutting with kitchen knife right after I've sharpened it. Its kind of unpredictable. It cuts with ease but not in a predictable way. After a few cuts I am more confident, I know where the blade is going. I don't know what explains that, but I think this might be similar to what happens with the blade after a few shaves.

 

[jamesspo]

As you can see I even got the Excalibur logbook to keep track
I started with the Futur set at 1.5 and slowly dialled up to 3 during this run. Shave #6 was a real bloodbath as the Futur has a tendency to catch some of my skin defects. I really have to think about my technique when using this razor. I ended up doing 14 shaves with the GSB before it was done. Not much compared to other members here, but a new record for me. I have not went past 6 shaves with GSB in any razor before.
The following runs were:
GSB in Merkur 37C: 5 shaves
GSB in Merkur 37C: 6 shaves
Voskhod in IDEAL adjustable: 11 shaves
Gillette Super Platinum in Fatip Grande: 5 shaves
Next: TBD

About my shaving:
I've been wetshaving for many years, gradually moving down in number of blades, using only DE razors for the last few years.
I've started to 3017 soaps and creams and this has really improved my shaving.
Like my fellow Viking Bosse I live in a dry climate and prep and skin care is essential. Thanks bosseb for pointing this out.

Now, on to choose the next blade/razor. See you soon!

Welcome to the club, Andreas! This club's about objectively judging your shaves, not about getting to any absolute number, so I say you're doing great. As you try for more shaves/blade, it's always possible that you'll run into bad shaves - the key is to try to make a determination of the cause if you can. Whether you can or can't, I'd always recommend doing another shave past the "bad one", just to make sure it wasn't an anomaly. That's the way you learn about what's really blade related, and what's due to other factors. Along the way, your technique (both the actual shaving and prep) will get better if there's room for improvement (and there almost always is..even for the most experienced shavers).

Good luck with your shaves!

 

[Gytis]

Welcome to the club, Andreas! This club's about objectively judging your shaves, not about getting to any absolute number, so I say you're doing great. As you try for more shaves/blade, it's always possible that you'll run into bad shaves - the key is to try to make a determination of the cause if you can. Whether you can or can't, I'd always recommend doing another shave past the "bad one", just to make sure it wasn't an anomaly. That's the way you learn about what's really blade related, and what's due to other factors. Along the way, your technique (both the actual shaving and prep) will get better if there's room for improvement (and there almost always is..even for the most experienced shavers).

Good luck with your shaves!

This one was the best advice I have got in my shaving world about one year ago. Thanks, James !

 

[BaldSwede]

This one was the best advice I have got in my shaving world about one year ago. Thanks, James !

I agree. This is very good advice, well worth repeating. In my short time as an Excalibur apprentice, I've already seen that there is 20-50% more shaves possible beyond that "bad" shave. Thanks again gentlemen for all your advice.

BTW, my next blade is Polsilver SI in Mühle R89. I'm in "den-clearing-mode" when it comes to soaps and creams right now. Unfortunately I've run in to some duds, and this has made me change blades more often.

 

[videdster]

I haven't posted in a while due to school an work but I'm back. I'm glad I read the post above mine because I was about to bin a Personna blade that got real rocky. I have been shaving exclusively with slants and I have found that for my beard type (steel wool) that they increase blade life.
I have about 15 shaves on the personna. A few shaves ago a transplanted it into my baby smooth and the shave quality decreased dramatically. Upon placing the blade back into my slant the blade felt like new again! Happy shaving gents!!

 

[DonMac]

As much as I try to resist continuing to use my Personna blue that I retired at 101 shaves, I simply can't resist periodically going back to it for just one more shave. I now have 118 shaves on it, and it still shaves beautifully.

 

[videdster]

I saw some post with an Excalibur notebook. Where did they get that???

 

[BaldSwede]

I saw some post with an Excalibur notebook. Where did they get that???

At a Big C in Thailand.

 

[ruckin]

I am both please and concerned with my progress so far. I recently found this thread and have 20 shaves on a Lord Platinum blade ( a new record for me) and it seems to be working fine. While I feel good by not tossing a perfectly good blade it is conflicting with my desire to try a bunch of different blades.

My concern is if I get a month or more from each of my blades I will never need to buy a blade again and I might need to consider who should inherit them!

Ruckin

 

[Neffarious]

Yep. I just bought 1ok feathers because I have finally tamed them, I have 500 or so blades at The moment. 500 .months is a long time lol