Can you explain to a blind person how to apply lather?

[Lockback]

Good to know, I'll hold myself back and not go too far with my pass against the grain, then.
I've heard a lot of good stuff about Astra and Permasharp, I'll definitely give those a try. I'll also see if Wizamet is available in the Netherlands.
Thanks for the suggestions!

I concur with @euro. I think switching to Astra SP's or Perma-Sharps is an improvement over Derby Extras.
And welcome, @parham! You've come to the right place for advice and guidance. As I am a uniquely average latherer, I shall leave the tips to those who are better than I!

 

[Guido75]

Hey @parham! Welcome to B&B! Enjoy your stay here. Great feedback so far I see and with Al even willing to experiment on himself before advising you is B&B at its best!

Enjoy!

Guido

 

[parham]

Thanks everyone for chiming in, and for the warm welcome! I just took a shower and picked a prep routine. The goal was to pick something that allowed me to experiment and learn from the widest set of suggestions offered here.
I'll list what i did (with credits of course!) and list the results/learnings at the end.

1. I took a shower to make sure that my skin and beard is hydrated properly.
2. I didn't apply any pre-shave, so that I could test only my lather, no extra help!
3. I filled in my bowl with water. I was going to use it for dipping my brush, because I figured it'd act like water in a sink. Our sink doesn't have the functionality to close the drain hole
4. I smeared cream on my face, per @AimlessWanderer's suggestion. I squeezed the Speick cream onto the pad of my index finger, i figured this would be 1 cubic centimeter. I rubbed this between my hands, which made a watery cream, and then i just smeared it over my face. I then went over another time, adding @Honedright's suggestion of rubbing the cream into my beard, so that if my brush technique isn't great, at least my fingers can lift up the hairs. I noticed at the end that the cream had become sticky and certainly less watery. I tested this by pressing my palms together and pulling them apart – definitely sticky, and sounding like dry lather. I took this as a good sign that we're not too watery at this point, so adding water should go well!
5. I held my brush upside down under the water, then closed the faucet, turned the bristles down, and gave it a squeeze between my 4 fingers and my palm. I figured this would be a great amount of water to start
6. At this point, I started holding my brush like @Honedright suggested – handle against my palm and fingers on the bristles very close to the knot. This certainly gave my brush an extra "oomph". This prevented the bristles from bending as much as they were before, and I actually felt the brush lift up my beard
7. After I was done going through my entire face, I touched my skin, and... lo and behold! No cream left on my face, LOL
8. My assumption here was, I either applied too little cream to my face, or too much water. I thought I'd increase the cream and try again, doing exactly the same steps, with the same amount of water in my brush as last time
9. This time, I squeezed a strip of cream onto the middle forefinger of my middle finger. I imagine this is something like 2 CM long and 1 CM wide – I have long, slender fingers, so I'm guessing here
10. I applied the cream to my face and rubbed it in. When I was done, i did the same palm-against-palm test, definitely more slick. At this point, I noticed the skin around my cheekbones start to tingle. This reminded me of @brucered's suggestion that maybe the irritation is due to too many passes or poor razor technique. So, I decided not to go over those areas either with a razor or the brush, and leave the vellus hair alone (thanks ChatGPT for telling me what that hair is called!). This was so that I could verify if it's the razor/brush, or the cream
11. At this point, the water in the bowl was colder, so it was harder to verify if I was just applying the water to the tips of my brush. I gave it a try anyway, and went over my face with the brush. The sound was noticeably different, yay!
12. After I went through my entire face, I touched my face. This time, the lather on my face had more volume, but also didn't feel dry to me – the palm-against-palm felt very slick. So I started shaving!
13. I started on the left side of my face, and noticed that this almost felt like I have pre-shave on. Very promising! I was going with the grain, and going quickly and confidently!
14. As I got to under my chin I noticed the tingling on my cheeks turn into burning. So, I thought I'd just pause when I was done going with the grain
15. By the time I got to my right cheek, the lather was very dry, Normally, I'd be able to summon tons of lather from the bowl, but now I tried to do the same with the brush. I wasn't confident dipping the tips of the brush in water, so I wet the fingers of my right hand and applied my hand to the tips of the brush. This way I could feel exactly how much water I was adding
16. I applied water to my right cheek, and I noticed that the lather had lost its volume. i didn't want to make the lather run off my face and didn't apply more water just to be safe
17. I went over the right side of my face with no issues!

Here are my learnings. Now, the only way I can learn is for someone to challenge the conclusions below that don't make sense, or to provide more information on the ones that do, or offer improvements based on my steps above. So, by all means, critique or add as you want!

1. The sensitive parts of my face seem to react to something in Speick and Proraso when applied in a large amount. My takeaway is that bowl lathering means less product on my face, so I'm going to aim for that
2. Wet lather is more slick lather! Despite the irritation on my cheeks, the shave felt very comfortable, and very close. Of course, I didn't go against the grain which is when I can really test comfort, but I feel like I got a very good with-the-grain pass
3. I'm definitely keeping @Honedright's suggestion on how to hold the brush
4. I'm not confident testing lather slickness between fingers because there is not much contact, and I'm more confident with something like my palms. If I keep going the non-bowl route, maybe @Alum of Potash's suggestion of palm lathering would be interesting to try

 

[BigJ]

Welcome aboard!!

You have some wonderful suggestions above! Please keep us posted on your progress.

 

[AimlessWanderer]

The sensitive parts of my face seem to react to something in Speick and Proraso when applied in a large amount. My takeaway is that bowl lathering means less product on my face,

Alternate view: you stiffened up the bristles of your brush, scrubbed away with more oomph, only to find there was no lather. That could be brush burn. Over scrubbing without good lubrication. Don't rule out the product just yet, if you have a new irritation from a new method.

Next shave, no brush. Wet fingertips only. Find that ideal lather first, and figure out how to get there later. The great thing about palm lathering, is that when you know what the ideal lather feels like, you can do test lathers between shaves, to figure out what the brush wants out of the deal, without having to put lather or razor to your face. You can test that with and without the palm grip on the brush, and see how they change the lather, and the feel on the palm of your "bowl" hand.

So get one good shave, and you can try out lots of people's suggestions, while still giving your face a rest.

 

[brucered]

Regardless of lather and sight issues, I will say this....

You are a posting guru. Your grammar, spelling, use of quotes, splitting quotes, mentions, etc, are amazing.

Good luck in your lather journey. I'm confident it will all come together in time. After you get it figured out, please stick around.

 

[Honedright]

Parham, I don’t know about Speick shave soap, but I do use Proraso which I find to be an excellent shaving cream. I use both the tub and tube versions. But I’ve noticed that Proraso is not particularly “slick.” Maybe it’s the water chemistry where I live. To me Proraso makes a nice dense and stable cream, but I noticed after a first pass there’s really nothing slick feeling remaining on my face. With some soaps, after a first pass I can wet my hands and rub my face and there is still some residual soap that provides a slick thin lathery layer, enough to shave a second pass, without relathering. It also allows me to feel very well with my hands the areas that need to be reshaved. I find that soaps like Williams and Marvy’s do this, but they are out of production and what you can find is ridiculously expensive. Another that is similar to Proraso in lather quality, but does leave a slick residue, is Cella. There may be other soaps that do this that I’m not aware of. I hope this might help you a little more in your venture to find the perfect independent wet shave.

Also, almost forgot to mention, if you are using a new shaving brush, they tend to be a bit stiff when new and could end up removing more lather than they leave. Once broken in they, depending on the type of brush, become softer and perform better. This is where the fingers and thumb just at or above the knot really comes in handy. No matter how soft the brush, or how little “back bone”, with your fingers and thumb you have complete control over the bristles. Just squeeze to stiffen and shape the bristles, or relax to allow the bristles to spread out. And you can feel exactly what’s happening with your fingers and face. I hope this helps too. Good luck.

 

[euro]

I concur with @euro. I think switching to Astra SP's or Perma-Sharps is an improvement over Derby Extras.
And welcome, @parham! You've come to the right place for advice and guidance. As I am a uniquely average latherer, I shall leave the tips to those who are better than I!

Derby Extras are horrible blades, maybe the newer versions are better but the ones I had just didn't work. The Astra SP made huge difference, the difference between those two blades is like night and day. The Astra SP's made in India are exactly the same as the Russian ones. I would recommend these blades to any beginner.

 

[brucered]

Derby Extras are horrible blades, maybe the newer versions are better but the ones I had just didn't work. The Astra SP made huge difference, the difference between those two blades is like night and day. The Astra SP's made in India are exactly the same as the Russian ones. I would recommend these blades to any beginner.

I'm coming up on 15y in my wet shaving and B&B Journey. Astra SP is still my go-to blade. Along with GSB, they make up 99% of my shaves.

 

[PaWell]

Hi @parham , I have found two interesting films (yeah.. I know.. video for blind person .. but there is very good soundtrack ) on youtube, they could be helpful for you and also for us to "wear your shoes" and understand your position.
Both are recorded by blind persons .. so very valuable in experience of shaving.

1st. : "Here's how I've learned to shave as a blind person! I hope this video helps someone. Read below for tips I forgot to add in the video" - link:

2nd. : "Suggestions and techniques on how to shave safely with a straight blade razor for the blind or visually impaired." - link:

BR

 

[parham]

(yeah.. I know.. video for blind person ..

Haha it's not as strange as you may think. All I know about shaving I've actually learned from people explaining it on Youtube. Geofatboy is my most favorite by far, because he talks a loooot about what he's doing, even saying things like "put the brush down" – it's like he is providing audio description on his videos, haha.
He actually has a video doing exactly what @AimlessWanderer suggested, applying shaving cream to his face and shaving.

He even does a shave blindfolded, which was very fun to watch – maybe this would encourage you guys to blindfold yourselves and try building a lather, haha!

they could be helpful for you and also for us to "wear your shoes" and understand your position.
Both are recorded by blind persons .. so very valuable in experience of shaving.

So it's interesting, I've watched these both and they are very high level. When it comes to the discussion here, their experience doesn't seem to apply because the second person mentions they use foam from a can, and from the sound, I think the first person does too. Also, when the first person gets to the actual shave, he doesn't really talk much in detail about what he's doing, he just goes at it most of the time.
I'm hoping to create a detailed tutorial once I've incorporated all of your suggestions and found something that works, to help more beginners by giving them a well defined starting point. but we'll get there

 

[parham]

Regardless of lather and sight issues, I will say this....

You are a posting guru. Your grammar, spelling, use of quotes, splitting quotes, mentions, etc, are amazing.

Ching! That's the sound my brain makes when a compliment lands. Thanks a ton for the compliment, and for asking me to stick around!
I used to be a full time developer for 8 years, and spent a lot of time as a teenager on many forums, so that all helps. This forum is also very cooperative because I can just BB code, which allows me to "write' and "read" the formatting, as opposed to "seeing" it, if that makes sense.
Also, I used to be a part of multiple play-by-post roleplaying campaigns, which means I read a lot and wrote a lot. That meant that even as a 15 year old in Iran, my English was very good without me having tried at all, haha.
All of this to say, when your kids spend time at their computer playing games, maybe what they learn from those games turn into skills later in their life... hopefully they are not playing Call of Duty or The Last of Us, LOL.

Good luck in your lather journey. I'm confident it will all come together in time. After you get it figured out, please stick around.

Thank you! I'm very confident it will, and I'm definitely going to stick around if I see that i have useful knowledge/advice to offer!

 

[parham]

Alternate view: you stiffened up the bristles of your brush, scrubbed away with more oomph, only to find there was no lather. That could be brush burn. Over scrubbing without good lubrication. Don't rule out the product just yet, if you have a new irritation from a new method.

Next shave, no brush. Wet fingertips only. Find that ideal lather first, and figure out how to get there later. The great thing about palm lathering, is that when you know what the ideal lather feels like, you can do test lathers between shaves, to figure out what the brush wants out of the deal, without having to put lather or razor to your face. You can test that with and without the palm grip on the brush, and see how they change the lather, and the feel on the palm of your "bowl" hand.

So get one good shave, and you can try out lots of people's suggestions, while still giving your face a rest.

I agree, great advice. I'm going to focus on rehydrating my skin , and wait for my flaky skin to feel better. Then I'm going to apply the cream to my face, and add water with my fingertips as needed. I'll report back in about 2-3 days depending on when my face starts feeling less dry — I want to make sure that a sensitive skin wouldn't throw me off! In the meantime, if anything else occurs to you, let me know!

 

[Alum of Potash]

Damn good call, Alan. Immediate tactile feedback on lather. It should work well with his synthetic brush too.

I'm not sure I'd go for a boar unsighted though, as there's more chance of overscrubbing and getting brush burn than with his synth. Later, maybe. He would probably be safer finding his footing with that silvertip fibre first though, I reckon.

The thing with palm-lathering is that all the scrubbing takes place in the palm in building the initial lather. Once the lather has been built both in the palm and the knot itself, the lather is then applied in a painterly fashion to the face with the sides of the bristles rather than the tips. The tips being used in building the lather with face-lathering, soft tips work better there (i.e., contemporary synths, silvertip badgers, etc.). But as the nerve sensitivity of the palm is much less than the face, palm-lathering actually allows you use the scritchiest (scratchiest) and most frugal knots out there, the most prickly of pure badger knots, clipped-tip boars, etc. That said, a broken-in non-clipped Omega boar is quite soft as to the tips, while maintaining backbone both as to building the lather and as to having an idea as to the angle of attack. No risk of over-scrubbing or brush burn there, I would think, if building lather on the face, bowl, or palm. A great, all-around brush.

 

[parham]

Okay! So I'm back with some new results and learnings.
Also, there's going to be a surprise at the end, which I hope is going to be interesting for you all!
First, what I did:
This time, I applied the Speic shaving cream directly to my face, and I added water to my face using the tips of my fingers. My shave went without issues, and I learned a few things from it that I thought I'd share.

• For the most effective way to "feel" the lather on my face with my hands, I have to first wash my hands, and then thoroughly dry them. Otherwise, I either (1) feel the lather that's left on my hands as opposed to the lather on my face, or (2) I inadvertently add more water to the lather when I touch it with wet hands. I noticed that every little drop of water counts!
• When adding water, all I need to do is drag my fingertips on my face with the grain. Rubbing my fingers up and down and side to side seem to remove lather, as opposed to making it a little bit wet
• Something might be up with Speick and my skin, because my skin feels irritated again, even though I followed the same steps as before, not shaving around my cheekbones and not using a brush. It might be worth experimenting with Castle Forbes next

So, now that I had a sense of how a lather feels on my face, I figured I'd do a lather without shaving, and test out different ways of "feeling" its consistency. Here is what I did:

• I followed @AimlessWanderer's advice of constantly wiping the brush on the sides of the bowl, to get the lather out of the brush in a way I can actually touch
• I took a page out of @ShavingByTheNumbers's book and created a very rudimentary way to measure the water and shaving cream in the bowl: 1/4 scoop of Castle Forbes Lavender, and 2 scoops of water, and a completely dry Muhle STF brush
• This way of measuring ingredients, even though a lot less elaborate, made it easier to find next steps to improve. For example, since water kept spilling out of the sides of the bowl way before I had a lather, I realised that 2 scoops might be one too many. I can give that a try next time
• Finally, I experimented with different ways of "feeling" the lather. Just dipping a finger into the lather didn't work, because it didn't give me a sense of how slick the lather is, but it was great to make sure that the entire shaving cream was incorporated into the lather. Rubbing index finger and thumb together didn't work either, since the surface area wasn't big enough to feel the slickness. Rubbing two hands together (just the fingertips, no need to involve the palms( worked really well to feel the slickness of the lather. And finally, putting 3 fingers in the bowl and swirling made it easy to feel the consistency of the lather – in "milk mode" my fingers encountered no resistance as if it was water, and in "whipping cream mode" I could feel the resistance. In the future, seems like rubbing fingers together and feeling the lather with multiple fingers is a good way to feel the result before I apply it to my face

And here is the surprise! This is the picture of the lather I built with Castle Forbes:

Wait, but how does a blind person take a photo? Let me rule out the obvious answer: my wife is also completely blind.
But, there is a service called Aira.io that you can call to help you with tasks, and one of the things they can do is take a photo with your phone. Isn't that cool?
What do you all think about the lather?

 

[AimlessWanderer]

This all sounds like you've been making some real progress. It's a shame to hear the cream is leaving you with some irritation.

It might be worth lathering up your face on one of the days that you don't shave, leave it on for however long a shave takes you, and just rinse it straight off. That should tell you whether it is one of the ingredients that is causing you the problems, or something mechanical. In other words, your shaving technique.

How the lather feels on your face, is more important than how it feels in the bowl, and as you say, every drop counts. You sound like you now have the means to get somewhere close in the bowl, and make sure it's mixed properly. However, applying it to a wet face, will add more water as well as the lathering action adding a little more air, and the stubble and skin will also steal a little bit of that water.

You sound like you have all the important building blocks now, including the awareness of what you should be aiming for, how far off you might be at any moment, and what to do about it. You also sound like you are having fun, which is great to read.

 

[blethenstrom]

Okay! So I'm back with some new results and learnings.
Also, there's going to be a surprise at the end, which I hope is going to be interesting for you all!
First, what I did:
This time, I applied the Speic shaving cream directly to my face, and I added water to my face using the tips of my fingers. My shave went without issues, and I learned a few things from it that I thought I'd share.

• For the most effective way to "feel" the lather on my face with my hands, I have to first wash my hands, and then thoroughly dry them. Otherwise, I either (1) feel the lather that's left on my hands as opposed to the lather on my face, or (2) I inadvertently add more water to the lather when I touch it with wet hands. I noticed that every little drop of water counts!
• When adding water, all I need to do is drag my fingertips on my face with the grain. Rubbing my fingers up and down and side to side seem to remove lather, as opposed to making it a little bit wet
• Something might be up with Speick and my skin, because my skin feels irritated again, even though I followed the same steps as before, not shaving around my cheekbones and not using a brush. It might be worth experimenting with Castle Forbes next

So, now that I had a sense of how a lather feels on my face, I figured I'd do a lather without shaving, and test out different ways of "feeling" its consistency. Here is what I did:

• I followed @AimlessWanderer's advice of constantly wiping the brush on the sides of the bowl, to get the lather out of the brush in a way I can actually touch
• I took a page out of @ShavingByTheNumbers's book and created a very rudimentary way to measure the water and shaving cream in the bowl: 1/4 scoop of Castle Forbes Lavender, and 2 scoops of water, and a completely dry Muhle STF brush
• This way of measuring ingredients, even though a lot less elaborate, made it easier to find next steps to improve. For example, since water kept spilling out of the sides of the bowl way before I had a lather, I realised that 2 scoops might be one too many. I can give that a try next time
• Finally, I experimented with different ways of "feeling" the lather. Just dipping a finger into the lather didn't work, because it didn't give me a sense of how slick the lather is, but it was great to make sure that the entire shaving cream was incorporated into the lather. Rubbing index finger and thumb together didn't work either, since the surface area wasn't big enough to feel the slickness. Rubbing two hands together (just the fingertips, no need to involve the palms( worked really well to feel the slickness of the lather. And finally, putting 3 fingers in the bowl and swirling made it easy to feel the consistency of the lather – in "milk mode" my fingers encountered no resistance as if it was water, and in "whipping cream mode" I could feel the resistance. In the future, seems like rubbing fingers together and feeling the lather with multiple fingers is a good way to feel the result before I apply it to my face

And here is the surprise! This is the picture of the lather I built with Castle Forbes:
View attachment 1784782
Wait, but how does a blind person take a photo? Let me rule out the obvious answer: my wife is also completely blind.
But, there is a service called Aira.io that you can call to help you with tasks, and one of the things they can do is take a photo with your phone. Isn't that cool?
What do you all think about the lather?

You are just rockin' and rollin' there! You have really worked out some great ways to accomplish this. I see your picture and you asked about what we thought of your lather. To me it looks a bit airy and too bubbly. You may need a bit more time whipping it to make it more dense or maybe it is not enough product in the lather. However, I am no lather expert and others might disagree with me.

 

[parham]

It might be worth lathering up your face on one of the days that you don't shave, leave it on for however long a shave takes you, and just rinse it straight off. That should tell you whether it is one of the ingredients that is causing you the problems, or something mechanical. In other words, your shaving technique.

Great idea, I'll do that!

How the lather feels on your face, is more important than how it feels in the bowl, and as you say, every drop counts.

I totally see what you mean. However, I'm trying to create a way of knowing when to stop, and this was my attempt to experientially figure that out.
So here is where I am and I wonder if you or anyone else has any advice.
I imagine that for me to get to consistently good lather, I need 3 things:

1. A good way to measure ingredients: I think I've got that figured out by keeping the brush dry and using something to measure how much water/cream/soap I put in the bowl, or in the case of something like hand lathering, on the brush or in my hand
2. A good way to measure lather consistency: this is something that I'm still not sure about. Ideally, this would be something like you looking at the lather that you have and thinking, "last time I had a lather like this, it was a great shave, so let's stop here and apply this"
3. A good way to measure application consistency: the experiment you suggested is a great way to do this, to get my sense of touch attuned to what the lather I want "feels" like

Step 2 is what I'm the most unsure of. Today I'm going to try hand lathering to see how that compares, but this is the only question that's still left open for me.

You sound like you have all the important building blocks now, including the awareness of what you should be aiming for, how far off you might be at any moment, and what to do about it.[/QUOTE]
Yes. Adding water with fingertips is great to recover from dry lather, and I wonder if I can continue doing that even when applying lather with a brush? I feel like touching lather reduces its cushioning property, but I'm not sure if that's me imagining things?

You also sound like you are having fun, which is great to read.

Yes, definitely having fun! My next experiment to test out ways to feel quality of lather while building it is going to be palm lathering as you and @Alum of Potash suggested. Results of that will be coming soon!

 

[parham]

You are just rockin' and rollin' there! You have really worked out some great ways to accomplish this. I see your picture and you asked about what we thought of your lather. To me it looks a bit airy and too bubbly. You may need a bit more time whipping it to make it more dense or maybe it is not enough product in the lather. However, I am no lather expert and others might disagree with me.

Aaaah! This actually makes me think that we should have shaving clinic video calls to get feedback in real time about good lathers, haha!
Maybe I should continue asking for feedback using photos. I can't see photos of good lathers, but I can at least show you guys what I have and get advice on that.

 

[parham]

By the way @AimlessWanderer, I was referring to my notes and I remembered that you also gave very precise count of turns and amount of cream. I'm going to test that out next, and I'm wondering how best I can compare results with you. The things that occur to me is either you giving me description of how the lather feels for you, tactilely, when it dries on its own and gets to a good enough consistency for you, or I can keep posting pictures.
I really like your idea of creating one good lather, because that creates the foundation for everything else. However, it'd be great to compare 'my" good with "your' good, because I'm not sure if I'm getting the results you're getting even though your instructions are as specific as humanly possible.