Arkansas purchase advice

[Friedramen]

Hey guys I'm looking to buy a translucent ark most likely either from naturalwhetstonecompany or from Dan's. The size I like (6x2x.75-1) is about $50 more expensive at Dan's for what I'm assuming is a very similar stone. Is there anyone here who has bought from both places and might like to help me make a desicion? Thanks.

P.s. If you have a vintage translucent you wanna get rid of feel free to pm me

 

[Jayber Crow]

I've got a black translucent from Natural Whetstones as well as a translucent. I like the black translucent it's the densest Ark I've got. Dan's whetstones will most likely be dead nuts flat out of the box not so with the Natural Whetstones making the Dan's well worth the 50 bucks more.

 

[Gamma]

I've had stones of all flavors from both sources. Both sell good quality stones. I find that stones from both places need to be lapped. Maybe Dans might be a bit flatter, or less out of spec, sometimes. A few years ago I asked David to ship me two 8x2 Translucents lapped flat and they were very flat, but not what I call dead flat. 6x2" stones lap fast anyway, so it's not really a big deal IMO.

 

[cugel]

I got one of Dan's black 6x2 stones. not a huge stone but nice to hold and finish a razor on. It was flat out of the box, which was nice, but I still went over it with abrasive etc.

 

[kohalajohn]

Perhaps the best way is to go beyond flat and get them slightly convex. Then every point of the edge will touch every point of the stone on each lap. And on both sides, even if the razor is not perfectly straight.

This hasn't been possible before, but in a month Jarrod will be selling convex soft ark bevel setters and convex black arks for the finish. I'm intrigued.

 

[M14Shooter]

I have had good luck an performance with my purchase from Dan's.Stone was very flat out of the box.

 

[kelbro]

Then every point of the edge will touch every point of the stone on each lap.

That's hard for me to wrap my head around.

Seems like a more correct statement for a perfectly flat stone and a razor with a straight edge.

Convex, it seems that only a tiny section of the razor is touching a tiny section of the stone, like a knife sharpened on a croc-stick. Granted, every portion of the edge should get touched. And it seems like it would also put significantly more pressure on that localized contact point.

But according to my wife, I've been wrong before.

 

[eKretz]

I think he just didn't make a complete statement, making it harder for you to follow his train of thought. (I have a lot of experience with this, so I tend to mentally explore the possibilities, lol). The way he probably should have worded it is:

"Perhaps the best way is to go beyond flat and get them slightly convex. Then *with the correct orientation - for example rolling x stroke - and selective pressure on the razor* every point of the edge will touch every point of the stone on each lap. And on both sides, even if the razor is not perfectly straight.

Personally I don't see the necessity for a convex hone, especially as the radius would be nearly impossible to reliably reproduce. Better to go flat and have the same repeatable surface every time.

 

[kohalajohn]

Yes, as long as there's absolutely no warp in the razor, it will all lie flat on the flat stone. But trailing even a warped razor over an arc means that everything gets touched.

We are talking about an arc super minimal. I think the bendiness of a razor will have most of it touching the arc all the time. If the convex razor was continued out into a full sphere, it would be the size of a bus. It's nearly nearly flat.

I sound like I know what I'm talking about, but I assure you I don't. This is just because I bought a razor from jarrod and it shaved so nicely I asked him about the convex black arc he used to hone it. And then he talked to me a long time until my brain hurt. A really long time. I don't think he gets many folk to listen to his passion about this.

There's also stuff about spherical trigonometry. Yeah, really. How an arc (I mean an arc in the geometry sense, not the Arkansas sense) creates a slight concavity in the very bevel itself. And he talked math as well.

oi, such a lot of thinking.

The down side of convexity is that that razor is now committed to it. You have to use a convex stone to raise the burr. You have to use a convex stone to finish. You have to pick a razor to be your convex razor for good. You can't mix it up.

I suspect that the reason Slash's pasted balsa work so well is the same reason. Or one of the reasons. Balsa is soft and gives way and maybe a warped razor gets love all along the stroke.

Sorry, that last bit sounded more sexy than I meant.

And also maybe the bulgy soft balsa pushes into the middle of the bevel, giving a slight concavity to the bevel.

Thats what has me thinking of buying his convex bevel setter and convex finisher when they come out next month.

But for now, it's time for a three ounce martini.

 

[eKretz]

Uhh, there's no such thing as spherical trigonometry. Trigonometry is strictly triangles and the mathematical relationship between their side lengths and angles. You maybe should have said "spherical geometry" on that one.

Again, personally I'd rather avoid a surface that isn't easily and reliably repeatable. "Hollow" geometry on the bevel is suboptimal for shave comfort from what I've read on the subject also, better to have slight convexing. Better - for me anyway - to just use a flat hone and form a slight smile on the razor. YMMV.

 

[Alum of Potash]

Why not give a half-inch thick slice a try? That piece isn't going anywhere fast and it helps to keep costs down.

 

[dundak]

Convex stones and platens were common in manufacture. They saved time. Companies would and could produce 3,000+ razors a day back when straights were an everyday household item.


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[Friedramen]

Alright guys, I ended up going with a black translucent from naturalwhetstoneco which arrived on Wednesday. It was not even close to flat but that doesn't bother me. One thing I cant figure out though is in what universe this stone would be considered translucent. I feel like I've been duped a little. If I would've known about that in the first place, I would've just went with a hard ark from Dan's. Am I being too snobby? Should I have done more research first? Am I a fool for expecting that the stone was gonna be translucent? There is nothing on their site to indicate otherwise.

 

[kelbro]

Alright guys, I ended up going with a black translucent from naturalwhetstoneco which arrived on Wednesday. It was not even close to flat but that doesn't bother me. One thing I cant figure out though is in what universe this stone would be considered translucent. I feel like I've been duped a little. If I would've known about that in the first place, I would've just went with a hard ark from Dan's. Am I being too snobby? Should I have done more research first? Am I a fool for expecting that the stone was gonna be translucent? There is nothing on their site to indicate otherwise.

Never purchased from them but if you hold a flashlight up to the stone, you should be able to see it shine through if it's a translucent.

Flat stones are one of the benefits of buying a Dan's. The folks that work there are another. Always glad to help and they always give me quick service, even on my 'special orders'.

 

[Friedramen]

Never purchased from them but if you hold a flashlight up to the stone, you should be able to see it shine through if it's a translucent.

Flat stones are one of the benefits of buying a Dan's. The folks that work there are another. Always glad to help and they always give me quick service, even on my 'special orders'.

Yep, I've shined a light on every square inch of the stone and there is not one hint of translucency.

 

[eKretz]

Try it in the dark. It's black, you're not going to see light shine all the way through it in daylight. Here's mine:

 

[Alum of Potash]

I have a NW black translucent, 6" x 2", and it was indeed a bear to lap (giving me a mild case of repetitive stress injury). As for translucency, they are not translucent in the same way that Dan's translucent or the Norton hard Arks of old are translucent. Rather the black translucent is more of very dark grey with the translucency being noticeable as a kind of glow in the immediate border areas of the stone. You can see this by holding the stone up in daylight.

 

[Jayber Crow]

Yes, the translucent properties of this stone are at the very border on these stones about 1/8" from the edge. These are very nice stones, but as @Alum of Potash has mentioned are a bear to lap. Once you get it flat and dressed it will be a great stone. I have an 8 x2 it's the densest Ark I've got; and not as slow as some say with a full Ark progression using kero or paraffin or whatever you may call it.