Are Counterfeits a Problem

[dpm802]

Why would a manufacturer tool and staff a factory to produce something that costs as much to produce and is inferior to the original only to sell it for less than the original?

+1 ... we see counterfeit razor blades of all brands, I would think that if someone were going to produce a fake blade with fake labeling, they would knock off a Feather, since it is the most expensive DE blade in the world. And worth it.

Same thing with razors. Why copycat a $30 EJ89 when you could just as easily spoof a Pils razor costing hundreds more?

In the handbag world, fakers copy the expensive designer labels like Hermes, Coach and Gucci. Nobody is making counterfeits of a $10 Hello Kitty backpack. They go where the money is.

 

[BSAGuy]

Buy vintage Gillette or Schick razors. Who is going to counterfeit that? Blades from reputable supplier.

 

[nuclearblast]

Doesn't Ikon essentially copy/clone/counterfeit pretty much all of their razors?

Yup.

 

[JaredB]

Thanks for all of the comments. My concern is as one poster mentioned, Amazon seems to be allowing their marketplace to turn into E bay. Obviously, if you buy a Spyderco knife from a Chinese seller for $10, you deserve what you get. The problem is the better and better knock offs that sell for that "a bit cheaper", so you just think you got a steal on it.

I didn't think razors could have enough of a profit involved to bother, was just kind of wondering. Like I said, I don't mind that West Coast got an extra 10 or so bucks out of me over Amazon, 'cause I like Mom n Pop type outfits.

Thanks for the time.

 

[Mr Bob]

Ikon, EJ, Merkur, and the rest of today's respected manufacturers do not counterfeit. They are all variations on a theme of expired patents and design elements. What none of them do is infringe on trademarks. Trademark infringement is an essential element of counterfeiting. A counterfeit product attempts to pass itself off as a genuine article by producing goods and their respective packaging that are visually similar, or nearly indistinguishable from the the genuine article.

The respected manufacturers distinguish themselves by quality, design, and price. Their products do contain design elements that have been around for nearly a century, but they in no way purport to be Gillette or Schick or any other innovator of days gone by. They all have a perceived value by consumers and they do not infringe on trademarks or patents. This is similar to many products we use daily, from facial tissues to cars. Most of the products we use are built on the foundation of previous innovations.

Until recently, Apple phones relied heavily on hardware and protocol specifications developed by other manufacturers. They used these technologies without paying royalties or licensing fees. Did this make them a copy or even a counterfeit of Motorola, Samsung, Nokia, Panasonic, and the other companies that owned those technologies? Arguably, I'd say no... they certainly infringed heavily on patents, but they distinguished their products with their trademarked user interface and operating system. However, if we go with the idea that if it has been done before, it's a copy, then like Ikon or EJ, you could say that all Apple does is make copies. (I appreciate the technical complexities, but I just used Apple as an example.)

As far as actual counterfeiting goes: No niche market or margin is too small. Certainly the counterfeiters want to go after high volume, high margin products, but they never turn away the money available with a fake anything. The cost to tool up and make the fake are lower than most people think. In many cases, the original manufacturer unknowingly gives the tooling to the counterfeiters, and in some cases, as in integrated circuit manufacturers, they give the fabrication technology to the Chinese government as a condition of opening a manufacturing plant in China, who in turn hands it to the counterfeiter. In other cases, the owner or manager of a manufacturing plant might be approached by his wife's cousin that needs to make some money. He will give the tooling and specs to his wife's cousin as a matter of honor, and your product will soon show up in the counterfeit market. The cost of entry into counterfeit products is low, and is a fact of life if dealing with many Chinese manufacturers.

I often repair and restore vintage test equipment and audio gear. In some cases I attempt to get NOS power transistors (or vacuum tubes) as modern equivalents are not always an ideal replacement. These transistors are a very niche market, but they are counterfeited and sold at the actual market price. They appear similar - physical dimensions and markings, and may even pass a quick electrical examination. But they will fail thorough testing, or worse, they will fail catastrophically if used in the actual application. This market is far smaller than today's DE razors, but someone is still counterfeiting them. They are even counterfeiting radio frequency vacuum tubes - these are not used by guitar or audio people - an extremely niche market!

Basically, I have no doubt that the possibility exists for counterfeit Merkurs and EJ's.

 

[GKC1]

Amazon is actually a very safe place to shop as they have a 100% return policy. If there is anything wrong with your product, they send a pre-labeled sticker with postage, and schedule the pickup. Hard to beat service like that.

That's for sure! I recently returned something to Amazon...they e-mailed me a return label, and I dropped the package off at the drop box. I got an e-mail THAT NIGHT that the return was being processed and credited to my card. By the next day, the money was back on my card...well before the item could have gotten back to Amazon.

I do shop on eBay, but I'm pretty careful about the sellers there...but if the same item is available on Amazon, even for a few dollars more, I'll buy it from Amazon.

 

[DonMac]

Why would a manufacturer tool and staff a factory to produce something that costs as much to produce and is inferior to the original only to sell it for less than the original?

I'm convinced those razors and blades we are calling counterfeit are actually seconds and rejects from the original manufacturer. Amazon and similar "clearing houses" are a great way to offload inferior products. Amazon doesn't care and won't be held accountable, the blame will reflect back on the supplier who will claim ignorance. The strategy is that if more than one party can be blamed then no one will be held accountable.

I agree with the first part of your post, however I don't understand the term "clearing houses." Amazon is simply an online retailer. Amazon is probably the safest place to buy anything, as they allow lengthy comments from users who have previously purchased the product, allowing you to see the previous buyers level of satisfaction.

Additionally, they offer a 100% satisfaction A to Z guarantee on any products purchased. If you don't like it, or there is some problem, they send you a pre-paid return shipping label, automatically schedule a pickup, keep you apprised of the status, and refund your purchase price. Their service is outstanding!

 

[sub vet]

I agree with the first part of your post, however I don't understand the term "clearing houses." Amazon is simply an online retailer. Amazon is probably the safest place to buy anything, as they allow lengthy comments from users who have previously purchased the product, allowing you to see the previous buyers level of satisfaction.

Additionally, they offer a 100% satisfaction A to Z guarantee on any products purchased. If you don't like it, or there is some problem, they send you a pre-paid return shipping label, automatically schedule a pickup, keep you apprised of the status, and refund your purchase price. Their service is outstanding!

Amazon allows comments from about anybody so there is no telling if the comment you're reading is legitimate or a plant. Amazon does not do a quality check on its vendors, purely buyer beware, i.e clearing house. I do not get pre-paid return shipping labels and I've heard some horror stories from those trying to return items although I have not returned anything since I buy only fool proof stuff like cooking racks. I do not buy anything from Amazon that requires any real QC or inspection.

 

[sub vet]

I should add that when I shop for items I care about I go to Amazon, get their suppliers' websites and if I like what I see I deal directly with those suppliers. I have had great success and no disappointments using that strategy, in fact I have beat Amazon's shipping costs and prices quite often.

 

[FL shaver]

The only item I ever questioned was the Old Spice mugs. Would they be so hard to duplicate? Would it be profitable to sell copies?

 

[crank]

Punktal did it long before Ikon and your idea. The Shavecraft 101 is based on a Punktal head. The Ikon Slant is based a vintage slant design (cannot remember manufacturer). Someone mentioned that the OC Deluxe is based on the Gillette New Deluxe. I believe the Shavecraft 102 is also based on an old design. I personally like that old designs are available in new razors.

A counterfeit is one that passes itself off as a well-known brand name. If a razor is made in Asia and it is packaged and labeled to appear to be a Merkur 34C, then it is a counterfeit. If it merely copies a design, but it clearly labeled as being made in Asia, there is no problem, assuming that patents have expired.

When IKon's owner (Greg Kahn) was a member (Pureslab) and posting on this board, I made a comment that it would be nice to see a DE razor with an Asymmetrical head. Safety bar on one side, Open Comb on the other. He quoted me and responded "Hmmmm ... that's a good idea." A few months later, IKon began to produce such a razor. I've always wondered if he stole my idea, but even if he did, there is little I can do about it.

 

[DonMac]

Amazon allows comments from about anybody so there is no telling if the comment you're reading is legitimate or a plant. Amazon does not do a quality check on its vendors, purely buyer beware, i.e clearing house. I do not get pre-paid return shipping labels and I've heard some horror stories from those trying to return items although I have not returned anything since I buy only fool proof stuff like cooking racks. I do not buy anything from Amazon that requires any real QC or inspection.

Some products have thousands of reviews & you really believe that the company selling the product would take the time to plant reviews? What about the negative reviews, as there is always someone who is not satisfied. If Amazon has a 100% satisfaction guarantee, where is the "Buyer beware.?" If the product is not good, wouldn't there be many negative reviews?

I don't know about your experience, but I have been buying from Amazon for many years. On the rare occasion when I've had a problem, in every instance, I received a prepaid shipping label, they scheduled pickup, credited my account, and handled everything very professionally.

Do you really believe a company such as Amazon with millions of products, investigates, analyzes or does some type of quality control check on their vendor products. How would they do that? I am sure that if they get complaints, they would pull the product from their catalog.

If you go directly to the vendor, are you not buying the same product, so why would it be any different than buying from Amazon that has a 100% guarantee that the vendor may not offer? Amazon also offers free shipping with a minimum purchase amount, and if Amazon is fulfilling the order, it will be on your doorstep in 48 hours.

I am not trying to be argumentative, I simply am missing the logic.

 

[Rockminer]

Some products have thousands of reviews & you really believe that the company selling the product would take the time to plant reviews? What about the negative reviews, as there is always someone who is not satisfied. If Amazon has a 100% satisfaction guarantee, where is the "Buyer beware.?" If the product is not good, wouldn't there be many negative reviews?


I am not trying to be argumentative, I simply am missing the logic.

http://business.time.com/2012/02/03/9-reasons-why-you-shouldnt-trust-online-reviews/

 

[AJ123]

Now I am worried about some big packs of Feather razors I bought on Amazon that came from far east vendors. I thought little of it at the time since Feather razors are from Japan so it makes sense that there would be vendors of Feather razors in far east. Now I'm a little worried. And I don't know if I've mixed those packs in with Feather blades from reputable vendors. Hmmm.

 

[DonMac]

http://business.time.com/2012/02/03/9-reasons-why-you-shouldnt-trust-online-reviews/

Interesting but mostly opinions, not facts. Certainly people leave fake reviews, there is no question regarding that issue.

Amazon reviews show whether the person leaving the review actually purchased the item from Amazon or is just leaving a review. It indicates in every review whether the purchase was verified and says "verified purchaser." That's the beauty of the amazon review system.

So if you ignore the reviews that are not verified purchasers, you have relatively accurate information.

 

[Rockminer]

Interesting but mostly opinions, not facts. Certainly people leave fake reviews, there is no question regarding that issue.

Amazon reviews show whether the person leaving the review actually purchased the item from Amazon or is just leaving a review. It indicates in every review whether the purchase was verified and says "verified purchaser." That's the beauty of the amazon review system.

So if you ignore the reviews that are not verified purchasers, you have relatively accurate information.

You asked how it happens, this is how.

Companies give freebies in exchange for reviews. A New York Times story reported that a company called VIP Deals had been reimbursing customers for their tablet case purchases if they posted a review of the product onAmazon. And wouldn’t you know? At one point, 310 out of the 335 product’s reviews received five stars.

 

[DonMac]

You asked how it happens, this is how.

Companies give freebies in exchange for reviews. A New York Times story reported that a company called VIP Deals had been reimbursing customers for their tablet case purchases if they posted a review of the product onAmazon. And wouldn’t you know? At one point, 310 out of the 335 product’s reviews received five stars.

To cite an extreme case is not typical of reviews. Also you are talking about an item that sells for substantial money, not a smaller amount that may apply to shaving products.

You also failed to note that due to Amazons vigilance of this type of activity, they removed the reviews and cancelled the sellers account.

"Amazon, sent a copy of the VIP letter by The New York Times, said its guidelines prohibited compensation for customer reviews. A few days later, it deleted all the reviews for the case, which itself was listed as unavailable. Then it took down the product page itself."

There will always be those who will attempt to cheat, that's just the reality of life, but to take the exception and portray it as commonplace is unreasonable.

The fact remains, that with Amazon's A to Z guarantee of satisfaction, there is little risk in purchasing products from them. If one purchases a product and is not satisfied, they receive a refund, pre-paid shipping label, and scheduled pickup automatically, which makes purchasing from them virtually risk free.

 

[Rockminer]

To cite an extreme case is not typical of reviews. Also you are talking about an item that sells for substantial money, not a smaller amount that may apply to shaving products.

You also failed to note that due to Amazons vigilance of this type of activity, they removed the reviews and cancelled the sellers account.

"Amazon, sent a copy of the VIP letter by The New York Times, said its guidelines prohibited compensation for customer reviews. A few days later, it deleted all the reviews for the case, which itself was listed as unavailable. Then it took down the product page itself."

There will always be those who will attempt to cheat, that's just the reality of life, but to take the exception and portray it as commonplace is unreasonable.

The fact remains, that with Amazon's A to Z guarantee of satisfaction, there is little risk in purchasing products from them. If one purchases a product and is not satisfied, they receive a refund, pre-paid shipping label, and scheduled pickup automatically, which makes purchasing from them virtually risk free.

Please stop putting words into my mouth. I never once said anything about this sort of thing being commonplace.

Some products have thousands of reviews & you really believe that the company selling the product would take the time to plant reviews? What about the negative reviews, as there is always someone who is not satisfied. If Amazon has a 100% satisfaction guarantee, where is the "Buyer beware.?" If the product is not good, wouldn't there be many negative reviews?

You seemed to insinuate that a company wouldn't take the the time to plant reviews. I gave you an example of one such case. Is it the only case? I doubt it. Are there other cases that Amazon hasn't caught? Probably. How rampant are the faked reviews? I don't know, I don't have the definitive numbers on that, and I imagine no one will ever be able to say with any semblance of accuracy.

IMO, and I'm fairly comfortable in saying this, Amazon reviews hold a lot of weight to consumers looking to get a certain product. It's only logical that companies would find ways to maximize those reviews in a positive way, and dare I say, some of them would also find value in trying to smudge a competitor with negative reviews.

Or, in the case of a shaving company, create a fake person to interview them in a favorable light *cough HTGAM*.

In the end I think Amazon is a great place to shop, and each person has to do their own research beyond the reviews, but you asked why a company would do it, and I simply answered why, nothing more.

 

[DonMac]

Please stop putting words into my mouth. I never once said anything about this sort of thing being commonplace.



You seemed to insinuate that a company wouldn't take the the time to plant reviews. I gave you an example of one such case. Is it the only case? I doubt it. Are there other cases that Amazon hasn't caught? Probably. How rampant are the faked reviews? I don't know, I don't have the definitive numbers on that, and I imagine no one will ever be able to say with any semblance of accuracy.

IMO, and I'm fairly comfortable in saying this, Amazon reviews hold a lot of weight to consumers looking to get a certain product. It's only logical that companies would find ways to maximize those reviews in a positive way, and dare I say, some of them would also find value in trying to smudge a competitor with negative reviews.

Or, in the case of a shaving company, create a fake person to interview them in a favorable light *cough HTGAM*.

In the end I think Amazon is a great place to shop, and each person has to do their own research beyond the reviews, but you asked why a company would do it, and I simply answered why, nothing more.

You're right, I mis-spoke and shouldn't have used the term commonplace. I think my frustration lies in the fact that it seems the forum concentrates too much on the negative. Something can have thousands of positive reviews in various venues, and yet discussion seems to center around some negative, which in many cases is inconsequential or unrealistic. I realize all aspects should be presented, however the negative somehow seems to many times dominate.