Head-to-Head Mystic Water vs RazoRock Artisan!

[JCinPA]

Thanks, clones! This is almost as much fun as the great "Ninja - Spetsnaz Faceoff"!

To be honest, and again, I don't mean to pile on Kingfisher here, he's explained it, and I missed some good tips from him and TheVez2's videos early on. Perhaps I am too dogged in my following instructions, and I stayed on what I am calling 'modified Marco Method' too long. If someone starts with this product with different directions and those videos, they are going to get in the saddle much quicker than I did.

Opening up the envelope with regard to water tolerance, will go a lot further, though. But, boy did I have a heavenly shave today!

Anyway, I think we're all good now.

 

[bkfist]

You know what's funny, I have never been a fan of the Marco Method, even with traditional Italian soaps. I lather every single soap or hard cream the same way. I aways start with a drier (not dry) brush and add water.

I do the same thing, but it's just the way I started 19 or 20 years ago. I don't like sloppy wet brushes, I don't like long loading times, and no matter what soap I'm using or loading, I end up dipping my brush in water 3 to 4 times while building the lather. (And I'm not talking a couple "drops" of water... I'm talking brush dunked 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch into water, and I always make sure the hair is somewhat "separated" before I dunk, it's not just getting the outer part wet, it' sucking water well into the brush.)

When using a soap as a shave stick, usually 1 or 2 more dunks are needed vs. loading off a puck, but I think part of that is when using any soap as a shave stick, you end up with more product loaded, therefore you need more water..

With MW soaps, I usually end up dunking 5 or 6 times to get the lather where I want it, the stuff definitely likes water. (Or maybe it just loads faster.)

Unlike you, however, I don't rinse face between passes, but I do apply the 2nd pass, then dunk 1 or 2 times for more water and go over the face again with the wet brush to loosen the lather on my face. (Same end result as you, really, but for me it's more convenient and less messy, plus 19 or 20 years of doing it that way, I'm not gonna change now. Back then I never even *thought* of rinsing between passes. Both ways, you end up adding more water to the lather each pass.)

With a few exceptions, namely Caswell Massey soaps, modern Williams, (current formula) GFT soaps and a *bunch* of artisan soaps from local fairs, craft shows etc. over the years, I've never had a problem getting a decent stable lather. I've had soaps that I don't like the feel of (any melt & pour - high glycerin/sugar/propylene glycol formula soap), but the lather's been stable.

(No, I haven't tried seraphim's "stupid amounts of water" method with Williams, so even Williams may respond well give a LOT more water... Some day when I'm feeling extremely rich, I'll splurge and buy another puck of Williams just to try it.)

 

[Songwind]

I agree that the soap has a narrower window of greatness than many. It's not so narrow as your graph suggests, in my opinion. Or perhaps my standards are just not as rarefied as yours. What I have found is that once I hit the entrance to that window, the time it takes to incorporate more water gets longer and longer.

As for wet brush loading, I did find the Marco method to be effective for bowl lathering. After whipping a wet brush on the soap until it started to make a creamier lather, I had to transfer to my scuttle bowl and beat it for a while to incorporate that water. I'm still fairly new in my lather building career, so I'm still quite used to creeping up on the right consistency in my lathers; maybe that's why I didn't find it particularly onerous. It probably take me 5 minutes to make a really good lather out of anything save Arko and RazoRock Artisan soaps.

 

[cvac]

Out of curiousity, has anyone been able to put this stuff in a warm scuttle for the length of a shave and NOT have the lather breakdown? I mean with no way to "revive" the lather. I'm done with MW for now, but just curious.

Also, the bulk of my puck is going to the Vez. A nice chunk of the puck will be going to Shaverjoe.

 

[k2clones29]

Out of curiousity, has anyone been able to put this stuff in a warm scuttle for the length of a shave and NOT have the lather breakdown? I mean with no way to "revive" the lather. I'm done with MW for now, but just curious.

Also, the bulk of my puck is going to the Vez. A nice chunk of the puck will be going to Shaverjoe.

I haven't been able to even bowl lather this soap. It's face lathering only for me (which is fine, because I actually prefer to face lather most of the time, but I do like a warm scuttle every now and again).

 

[TheVez2]

Thanks again cvac.

I wish I could report on the scuttle issue for you, but I don't have mine here. But I will certainly be using MW with my scuttle upon my return.

I also don't feel that the water acceptance range is as narrow as JC shows, but that could always be a YMMV thing. It is also going to depend on your brush and how much it is loaded. Remember a 30 second load on a small brush is different from a 30 second load on a big brush. There are just so many factors at play here.

I've never been too exacting on how I add water. What I usually do while I'm face lathering is to smash the brush straight into my face, to open up the middle. Then I 'grab' water with my fingertips and drop in somewhere between 4-10 good sized drops of water. Lather some more, then I usually repeat one more time. That usually does it for me.

 

[TheVez2]

Also wanted to add, since a couple of you brought it up, Michelle does have one of my lathering videos on her website. It is linked to the QR code (below) on her Shaving Soap FAQ Page.

 

[cvac]

Remember a 30 second load on a small brush is different from a 30 second load on a big brush. There are just so many factors at play here.

Agree. The 1/1 is a very small brush, but dense. I never load any soap just 30 seconds...I always go well over a minute...2 minutes would be normal for me with a really hard soap. With my last attempt, I probably went about a 1min 30 sec. I tried shorter and longer loading times with MW too.

Bruce hit on the scuttle issue. I just got my scuttle. For most shaves right now, I like to face lather and just use the scuttle as a brush warmer. Would be interesting to see how MW fairs in a scuttle for you, since so far you are getting the best results out of anyone here.

 

[TheVez2]

For most shaves right now, I like to face lather and just use the scuttle as a brush warmer. Would be interesting to see how MW fairs in a scuttle for you, since so far you are getting the best results out of anyone here.

That is primarily how I use my scuttle too, unless I'm using cream. I'd be happy to give you a report on my scuttle with MW, it's just going to take about a month to get my results.

 

[JCinPA]

I will bowl lather another couple of times first. If I get this morning's results consistently I will then try the scuttle. Isolating variables for now. As to the graphs I just snagged them to illustrate a point. They were not intended to be literal measurements. But now that we've established it works well I believe making it a little more forgiving is a worthy tweaking goal. I submit more folks use Proraso than MWF not because it's better but because it's easier. It's a tradeoff perhaps.

 

[TheVez2]

As to the graphs I just snagged them to illustrate a point.

Fair enough.

 

[Songwind]

But now that we've established it works well I believe making it a little more forgiving is a worthy tweaking goal. I submit more folks use Proraso than MWF not because it's better but because it's easier. It's a tradeoff perhaps.

A very good point.

 

[k2clones29]

In my quest to conquer this soap, I bowl lathered this morning following TheVez2's video. I finally conquered it! The later was thick and dense with great peaks. One of the best lathers I've ever had again (just like my face lather from yesterday). Another DFS, dare I say BBS.

JCinPA's charts are very apt regarding the sensitivity to water. I know there was a lot of discussion that the narrow curve was a dramatization, but it's not that far off. Just before my last pass, a few drops of water from my face rinse dropped into the bowl, and the lather began to break down ever so slightly. It was not enough to where I couldn't use it, but it was noticeable.

cvac, after doing a bowl lather today and being familiar with scuttles, I am going to propose a reasonable hypothesis that I don't think the soap in its current form will stand up to a scuttle. The stability of the lather is just way to sensitive, I experienced that first-hand today. Adding heat to it, just like adding a few drops of water to it, would likely begin to break it down. Now, that being said, there might be a way to play with the lather first by lathering it using less water before placing into the scuttle, and that may ultimately work. But if you were to lather the way you want to shave with it and then place it in the scuttle (the way it is usually done), I think the heat will make it unstable, and you will go from usable lather to disappearing lather. This may be my next experiment.

As for the soap, despite its sensitivities, it is still world class to me. I used Orange Vanilla this morning and topped it off with Arlington after shave splash (a very complimentary scent to the soap). As usual, it performed as well or better than every other soap I have ever tried. No surprise there based on my previous posts. But I wanted to share that incident with the few extra drops for all to show just how sensitive the soap was in my experience this morning. That really surprised me.

 

[JCinPA]

phenomenal results! Again!


OK, this is definitely repeatable! Shave details:

New Feather (1st shave on it) in Edwin Jagger DE89 head mounted on Bob's Razor Works XXL handle, King1976 custom silvertip badger, in an empty scuttle (no heat, just used as a bowl), finished with Thayer's WH followed by The Veg! DFS, no issues of any kind, very brief and mild alcohol burn from the AS spalsh afterwards. Between the Mystic Waters Lilly of the Valley scent, and The Veg, it was a delightfully intoxicating shave this fine spring day in the Chicago area!

To ensure I did not have too much water, I squeezed the brush so dry that not much happened when I took it to the soap. Then I dipped just the tips in the sink and went back to the soap, and got a great load after about 30 seconds. Then to the bowl of the scuttle. Whipped it up as far as it would go, then started to dribble water in from my fingers. After two minutes I had a fantastic lather, dense, just a little drier than normal because, like cvac, I start with a wet face, and rinse between passes. Absolute perfection.

Now, some of you may recall a thread on lathering I did about 6-7 months ago debunking the "Water Hungry" soap where people were carelessly saying the could make great lather with six (yes that's 6) teaspoons of water. Preposterous, most folks don't cook as much as I do and don't get out the measuring spoons, which is what I recommended. Cooking is a huge hobby of mine, and I have highly calibrated senses. I dribbled no more than 1/8th of a teaspoon of water into the bowl three times, so I added less than 1/2 teaspoon of water, in all. But remember my face starts wet, and throughout the three passes and touchups the lather remained scrumptiously delicious. Without rinsing between passes, maybe you could add a full 1/2 teaspoon of water, but I would follow TheVez2's advice and do it in small increments, fully incorporating each bit of water, do not add all at once. My experience is if you get ahead of the soap with the water, it can be tough to recover it.

Clearly, this soap is not 'hard to lather', it is just finicky and requires a very specific approach. Now that I have that figured out, I am confident I can hit it every time and the soap will respond nicely. With proper instructions, people should get into the saddle with this product quicker than I did. It performs every bit as well as my two favorite products at the moment, Queen Charlotte Soaps Green Irish Tweed hard cream (similar stuff) and the RazoRock Mughetto di Bologna (their Artisan line tallow soap, Lilly of the Valley scent). I find both of these products more forgiving in the lathering department, but the Mystic Water shaves and provides the after shave skin feel of either of them -- probably a touch better than the RazoRock, but right in line with the QCS, IMO.

Some folks have mentioned the two graphs I posted, and I want to reiterate ... They were for conceptual illustration only they are not intended to be actually proportional to some real world measurement! Lordy, we have some very analytical and scientifically-minded folks around here! It was meant to illustrate a point, that's all.


What I plan to do next is explore the range of this soap with regard to water and heat. In my mind this soap has passed the test in the shave quality and skin feel department! No further testing is necessary on that score, it is superb. Because I suspect it is more similar to QCS 'croaps', I am going to switch my comparison from RR to QCS.

I will put on my lab coat ...

And start to play with water ratios this weekend, and heating the scuttle. I never really use very hot water, just what comes out of my tap, and that's never hot enough to make you pull your hand back. I just like warm lather, it never get really hot anyway. Just not cold is good for me. So I won't over-stress this with heat. I will do some side by sides and try to flesh out the water tolerance range of these two products.

Michelle, this stuff is glorious when you dial it in! I would recommend this to anyone curious to try it out at this point. Again, to be fair to those who have had trouble with it, all things being equal--density, slickness, razor glide, skin feel--a soap with a more forgiving nature in the latherability department is preferred. I'll say it again... while both are good products, I don't think Proraso is used more than MWF because it is 'better' per se ... but because it is so easy to lather.

Anyway, my opinion of this stuff has come up. WAAAY up! Stay tuned ...

 

[cvac]

JC, very interesting results. Doesn't alter my position on the soap, but interesting nonetheless. The kind of testing you are doing is exactly what this soap needs in order to illustrate the narrow "sweet spot" problem with it and inform the maker re: recipe modifications. IMHO.

 

[Songwind]

JCinPA, thanks for bringing us along on your test runs. It's been very informative.

It also makes me want to wait and see what (if any) response MW will have to the tests that have been going on before buying a full puck. I imagine this will come as some relief to my wife. She finally gave me the "I'm not really sure why you need so much of this stuff" talk yesterday.

 

[k2clones29]

Lordy, we have some very analytical and scientifically-minded folks around here! It was meant to illustrate a point, that's all.

Have you seen the headspace gas chromatogrophy results regarding comparison of old spice products??? You better believe there are some analytically and scientifically-minded folks around here!

 

[JCinPA]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^


cvac, there is certainly no need to alter your view on these soaps. As I noted, all other things being equal, more latitude is better.

But I do want to emphasize, that while our experiences up to now had been similar, and I know what you were getting because I was getting it as well--in the last two days this soap has been amazing. It is clearly in the very top tier of performers.

I'm not trying to change your mind at all, and this won't knock anything out of my lineup yet (I may add it, though), and I get your frustrations. But this does perform really well. I just want you and others who have had issues with it and moved on to know that is the case. The issues have been well documented, and your decision is not at all unfair or unreasonable, IMO. I just want to give credit where credit is due, that's all.

But it has really impressed me now. I won't cut it any more slack than that, and I will put it through the wringer versus QCS on water and heat tolerance. But it has definitely gotten my attention now. That's all.

 

[cvac]

I get what you're saying JC, and that is why I like reading your posts on this even though I'm done with it. I do think that the product has a great deal of potential but just isn't "there" yet because of the lack of latitude, as you say.

 

[k2clones29]

I get what you're saying JC, and that is why I like reading your posts on this even though I'm done with it. I do think that the product has a great deal of potential but just isn't "there" yet because of the lack of latitude, as you say.

A reasonable criticism. I can certainly understand why some people won't use a soap that is too temperamental.