That looks like a really nice lather, Brucered
Head-to-Head Mystic Water vs RazoRock Artisan!
- Thread starter JCinPA
- Start date
thanks. it was my best lather yet with it. and despite the peaks and foamy look to it, it was thick and creamy to the touch as you can sort of see in the scuttle pics (kind of has a slick look to it)
i was quite happy with it...hopefully i'll be as happy after i shave with it, and it does not break down on my face...fingers crossed.
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Honestly, I'd hate to see the formula change. This is a great soap as it is.
- Thread starter
- #184
JCinPA
The Lather Maestro
Holy Smoke, you nailed that one dead on, brucered!!! Wow! That looks like the now legendary TOBS Jermyn Street lather shots!
Your arm will be OK, I found that I am taking a 'normal' amount of time to lather it these last couple of days, we got wore out trying it too wet.
I would bet that lather won't break down for a week, given Vez's experiment.
Oscar11, you may be right. This stuff is awesome. But if Michelle can tweak it just a little, she may not lose any of its better qualities and might widen the lathering window a bit. Have you tried QCS? I don't think you need to worry about a small tweak. It can be tamed.
Although I will say, with the right instructions and links to TheVez2's videos on her website, she may not have to reformulate at all. It's a marketing question. But it is a terrific product right now. If buyers actually do read the instructions and watch the vids it will do well. But if they over water from lack of experience with it, they will complain.
Brucered, I got great lather two days running, and will use it again tomorrow. Let me know what you think. The clouds did part and the angels did sing for me yesterday.
How long did that lather take you? I'm taking two minutes in the bowl, about 3 minutes start to finish, just like Vez did. Nothing out of the ordinary. I am worried I may not be able to wean myself away from the scent soon. I should probably change it up with something different.
Your arm will be OK, I found that I am taking a 'normal' amount of time to lather it these last couple of days, we got wore out trying it too wet.
I would bet that lather won't break down for a week, given Vez's experiment.Oscar11, you may be right. This stuff is awesome. But if Michelle can tweak it just a little, she may not lose any of its better qualities and might widen the lathering window a bit. Have you tried QCS? I don't think you need to worry about a small tweak. It can be tamed.
Although I will say, with the right instructions and links to TheVez2's videos on her website, she may not have to reformulate at all. It's a marketing question. But it is a terrific product right now. If buyers actually do read the instructions and watch the vids it will do well. But if they over water from lack of experience with it, they will complain.
Brucered, I got great lather two days running, and will use it again tomorrow. Let me know what you think. The clouds did part and the angels did sing for me yesterday.
How long did that lather take you? I'm taking two minutes in the bowl, about 3 minutes start to finish, just like Vez did. Nothing out of the ordinary. I am worried I may not be able to wean myself away from the scent soon. I should probably change it up with something different.
How long did that lather take you? I'm taking two minutes in the bowl, about 3 minutes start to finish, just like Vez did. Nothing out of the ordinary. I am worried I may not be able to wean myself away from the scent soon. I should probably change it up with something different.
it was about 30-40sec of applications (15/20 then wet tips, then 12/20 more). i whipped for about 30-45sec added a bit of water, another 15-20 sec of whipping, more water and antoher 30sec of whipping. took a few pics, whipped some more.
if i had just did it straight thru (no pics and inspecting), it would have been about 2-3min (guessing) or so including application, whipping and water adding then more whipping. like you said, it wasn't any weird length of time, i'd say average for the soaps i use.
i wasn't in the bathroom thinking "boy, this is taking a long time", it was a normal test lather time, but they DRY brush and LITTLE water was what made it go faster then my previous MW test lathers, where i spent great lengths of time trying to work out the water and bubbles.
- Thread starter
- #186
JCinPA
The Lather Maestro
Well there you go! That's as speedy and efficient as any lather I ever make! Our arms will recover from the learning curve damage they've sustained.
PAGING MICHELLE, PAGING MICHELLE
I know you can't post in here, but I also know you are watching! Brucered's may be some of, perhaps the best lather photos ever posted at B&B. And you guys thought we were knuckleheads and didn't know what we were doing!
Right now, as is, no changes, this is in the top dozen or so lather products I've ever used. It won't replace anything at the moment, but I do think your Lilly of the Valley will go on the shelf next to my other favorites. In fact, I may have to find another RazoRock scent to try.
I don't think you need to do this at this point, but if you can widen the lathering tolerance window a little bit without doing violence to the other qualities in this stuff, you will have vaulted yourself (IMNSHO) into the top half-dozen or so lather products around here, bar none. I can't wait to hear brucered's shave report tomorrow.
The whole instruction thing and Italian soft soap comparison at the start was just unfortunate, especially for those of us with a soft spot for Italian soaps. Your stuff is your stuff--Italian, it ain't. But it is wonderful stuff. Congratulations!
PAGING MICHELLE, PAGING MICHELLE
I know you can't post in here, but I also know you are watching! Brucered's may be some of, perhaps the best lather photos ever posted at B&B. And you guys thought we were knuckleheads and didn't know what we were doing!
Right now, as is, no changes, this is in the top dozen or so lather products I've ever used. It won't replace anything at the moment, but I do think your Lilly of the Valley will go on the shelf next to my other favorites. In fact, I may have to find another RazoRock scent to try.
I don't think you need to do this at this point, but if you can widen the lathering tolerance window a little bit without doing violence to the other qualities in this stuff, you will have vaulted yourself (IMNSHO) into the top half-dozen or so lather products around here, bar none. I can't wait to hear brucered's shave report tomorrow.
The whole instruction thing and Italian soft soap comparison at the start was just unfortunate, especially for those of us with a soft spot for Italian soaps. Your stuff is your stuff--Italian, it ain't. But it is wonderful stuff. Congratulations!
i think that was the issue for most of us, at least for me it was. it lathers like no other soap i've ever used, it takes the driest brush i've ever used and the least amount of water i've ever used for a soap. i was going at it with too much water at 1st, then just a little water, but even that was too much.
i can't even lather soft creams like TOBS with that little water. i have no idea how it works like that, but it does.
Yes, I have QCS too. It's a fine soap. I've been wet shaving for a long time (40+ years) and have used a bunch of really good soaps in that time but find MW to be exceptional. For some reason this soap fills all my requirements. I will never be a one soap type of person but, IMO, this is the best soap I've used to date. MW is going to see a lot of use it the future.
- Thread starter
- #189
JCinPA
The Lather Maestro
Maybe it's just perfect the way it is. I'm open to that idea. I love it.
Marketing success will demand lots of instruction. It has a bit of a learning curve. But without the misdirection we got at the start, it might be just fine as is. I'm falling in love with it. Maybe because of all the labor I put into it. Some say your problem child is always your favorite!
Marketing success will demand lots of instruction. It has a bit of a learning curve. But without the misdirection we got at the start, it might be just fine as is. I'm falling in love with it. Maybe because of all the labor I put into it. Some say your problem child is always your favorite!
IMHO, a lot of people aren't going to stick with this in its current form. Us shave geeks have way too many other far more forgiving products to choose from and shave dens so packed we don't really need to add something so finicky to our stack of products. Not only that, but a soap that is not reasonably user friendly to newbies misses out on a huge market share. Why do you think RazoRock is so successful? Because the product works well for both newbies and experienced shavers alike.
And JC, I did see your lather pics. Looking good for sure. My mind is already made up for now though. Like I said, I am open to testing formula tweaks, but I will not use this in its current form.
And JC, I did see your lather pics. Looking good for sure. My mind is already made up for now though. Like I said, I am open to testing formula tweaks, but I will not use this in its current form.
i still haven't shaved with mine, but agree with you on the "ease and marketing limitations". there have been more then 1 person throw in the towel on this stuff, as it is very frustrating to make lather with if you don't follow a very strict and limited way of lathering with it.
heck, look how many times i gave up, tried again, gave up and then finally got a rock solid lather from it. come tomorrow, i may not get it that good, but i'm hoping it will now that i know how finicky it is and exact step-by-step process on how to get there and am fairly confident, if and when i replicate my test lather from tonight, it will stand up to my shave and not evaporate or dry out and if all goes well, i'll scuttle lather it shortly and see how that goes.
if i was new and starting out, this would not be a recommended soap, unless you had not tried any other lathering products and had no knowledge of how most, if not all other soft italian soaps are lathered, as it goes against all other lathering soaps i have tried, as it uses little to no water, whereas my other soaps use a ton of water.
like you said, RR (the soap this thread was comparing it to) was not the 1st product i used, but it was one of the 1st, and it was an eye opener as to how shave soaps/creams/croaps should work and how easy they should lather and it still has a place in my rotation and will continue to be one of my staples. it's the product i compare most if not all other products to as far as shave quality and easy of lather. i don't think i even had to "test lather" a RR product to get it to work, they are that easy to use.
i'm saying one way is right or one way is wrong, but i also feel a tweak would be in order to make it widely accepted as an "easy lathering" product. if left as is, the instructions need to be 100% clear and accurate as to how to lather. if tweaked, it may become as easy as RR to lather, who knows.
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First of all, Brucered, that is some of the best lather I have ever seen from any soap. It is far better than the lather I am producing with MW, when I bowl lather. But I typically face lather, because it is easier for me than bowl lathering. I do get it that thick face lathering, but I usually dont see it like that on my brush, because all the goodness is on my face.
I'm quite jealous of that lather. I modified my process just a bit to be along the lines of what you posted (namely going back to the puck a second time), and I got closer, but still not quite that thick.
*Break*
Now, I have issues with a couple of comments that a few people have made about this soap:
First, that this soap needs tweaking to make it have a wider water acceptability range. Why? It works, and it works using a proven and widely accepted method (see below). As JC has noted, the results are repeatable, once you realize how to lather it. The soap doesn't need to be tweaked, the instructions do, and I'm working on that. The soap is fine, peoples technique need to change to match it (a point I tried to make before).
Second, is that this soap is not a good soap for beginners. That is hogwash. The method I use to lather this soap is the same method that B&B recommends in their tutorials. These tutorials are stickied and are recommended to new members. This technique is recommended because it will work for all soaps. I have used over 30 soaps and this method has never failed with any of them.
As Ive tried to explain before, the problem, in my opinion, is people develop their own methods for lathering. Not a bad thing in itself, because if it works for them, then great. It may work dandy for a few of their favorite soaps. Then they pass their method on to somebody who asks how to lather one of those same soaps, and guess what it works! Then that person goes to another soap using the same technique and it fails. They blame the soap or their water or whatever, when all along it could be the technique.
The Marco Method is a fine example. It is a great method, and it works well for a wide range of soaps, but it does not work for all soaps. This is the main reason Im not a fan of it. Especially as a Steward of this site (and in particular, the newbie forum), I do not like recommending a technique that does not work across the board for all soaps. Simple is better, especially when you are learning.
Here are 3 posts that can be found in the lathering tutorials that are stickied in the Shave Clinic & Newbie Check-In forum, in the Wet Shaving Instructions and Tutorials Thread:
B&Bs Collaborative Guide to Lathering Soap
Face Lathering Tutorial
Comprehensive Guide to Lathering
So, how can you not recommend a soap to a newbie, when it will lather great using the techniques that this site recommends for them?
Now, one thing youll notice is that these guides all say to wring your brush out completely. Thats not exactly how I do it, but for grins I decided to try it out with MW. It still worked. I just had to add more water later, but that is all part of the technique.
great points Vez....
there is no single method that will for for everything and people need to realize that. we get in habits and sometimes bad habits, so this was an eyeopener for me.
there is no single method that will for for everything and people need to realize that. we get in habits and sometimes bad habits, so this was an eyeopener for me.
I agree with TheVez. I don't think this soap is finicky or difficult to lather in the least. And since my infamous "instructions" have apparently become the source of all this consternation, I wanted to explain how those instructions came about.
First, let me say that I never advocated the "Marco method" for this soap, nor did I ever refer to it as similar to Italian soft soaps, nor did I ever advocate lathering it the way people lather Italian soft soaps. I don't even have any Italian soft soaps and I've never lathered one, so I don't really even know what that means. All that stuff about Marco method and Italian soft soaps grew up on its own, like mushrooms on a damp part of a lawn; I never planted them.
Here's the story.
I have always lathered all my soaps according to the original B&B soap-lathering instructions; i.e., starting with a very dry brush, shaken firmly multiple times and then squeezed out at least twice, sometimes three times, and then adding water during bowl lathering a little bit at a time. This works wonders for all melt-and-pour soaps, IME, and works pretty well with other soaps, too. However, along came the Marco method and many people were advocating it. It never worked for me, and I never really used it, but then one of the smartest soap gurus on this board explained in one of his posts about emulsifying the top of a soap with the early part of the lathering, and how you need some water to do that. How it was better to have a slight bit of water and then, rather than scraping up the soap into the brush with force, to allow the slight bit of water to emulsify the top of the soap while being gentle with the brush. This works, too, and it works with all soaps. Note that the amount of water in the brush is nowhere near Marco level and is just slightly more than I was using with the other method. Note also that the very gentle touch is only applicable to the very first part of the lathering, and that once some soap has been emulsified, you can add pressure during loading just like you do in the other method.
This was what I was trying to convey in the instructions. I just looked at them again and I don't think they're as bad as you think they are, though they could be very slightly modified and be better. They ask for the brush to drip until no more water comes out, then they ask for at least two shakes of the brush, and beyond that they ask for a squeeze. I did use the work "gentle" before the word squeeze because I didn't want people to use a VERY, VERY dry brush like I had been doing with Mama Bear soaps. If you remove two words the instructions work perfectly ("moderate" before shakes, and "gentle" before squeeze), even as they are currently written provided that you do not approach the instructions as though they are a modification of the Marco method or as if they were written for use on an Italian soft soap. If you have those preconceived notions, you probably leave a lot more water in your brush than I am leaving or was advocating. Please note that I did not ever say either of those things in the instructions; they grew up like a weed by some sort of spontaneous generation.
Here's another thing I would probably change. Once you start lathering, if the protolather is bubbly, it really means that your brush was too wet to begin with, and the problem, while solvable by continuing to lather on the puck, is a difficult one and a bit of sticky widget. Maybe it should say that if you get a bubbly protolather you started with a brush that was too wet.
I apologize for all the confusion my instructions have apparently wrought; but to be fair to myself, I think a fair bit of the problems were not in the instructions per se but in the way people's preconceived notions played into their interpretation of the instructions. I'm happy to change them or to have TheVez do it at Michelle's discretion, because I do think they could be improved quite a bit by a few word changes.
By the way, after going to the bowl I stand by all the instructions with regard to adding very small amounts of water, fully incorporating said small amounts of water before adding more, and not using overly vigorous stirring. These are methods that will lead most surely to the awesome lathers that I have been getting with MW soaps.
First, let me say that I never advocated the "Marco method" for this soap, nor did I ever refer to it as similar to Italian soft soaps, nor did I ever advocate lathering it the way people lather Italian soft soaps. I don't even have any Italian soft soaps and I've never lathered one, so I don't really even know what that means. All that stuff about Marco method and Italian soft soaps grew up on its own, like mushrooms on a damp part of a lawn; I never planted them.
Here's the story.
I have always lathered all my soaps according to the original B&B soap-lathering instructions; i.e., starting with a very dry brush, shaken firmly multiple times and then squeezed out at least twice, sometimes three times, and then adding water during bowl lathering a little bit at a time. This works wonders for all melt-and-pour soaps, IME, and works pretty well with other soaps, too. However, along came the Marco method and many people were advocating it. It never worked for me, and I never really used it, but then one of the smartest soap gurus on this board explained in one of his posts about emulsifying the top of a soap with the early part of the lathering, and how you need some water to do that. How it was better to have a slight bit of water and then, rather than scraping up the soap into the brush with force, to allow the slight bit of water to emulsify the top of the soap while being gentle with the brush. This works, too, and it works with all soaps. Note that the amount of water in the brush is nowhere near Marco level and is just slightly more than I was using with the other method. Note also that the very gentle touch is only applicable to the very first part of the lathering, and that once some soap has been emulsified, you can add pressure during loading just like you do in the other method.
This was what I was trying to convey in the instructions. I just looked at them again and I don't think they're as bad as you think they are, though they could be very slightly modified and be better. They ask for the brush to drip until no more water comes out, then they ask for at least two shakes of the brush, and beyond that they ask for a squeeze. I did use the work "gentle" before the word squeeze because I didn't want people to use a VERY, VERY dry brush like I had been doing with Mama Bear soaps. If you remove two words the instructions work perfectly ("moderate" before shakes, and "gentle" before squeeze), even as they are currently written provided that you do not approach the instructions as though they are a modification of the Marco method or as if they were written for use on an Italian soft soap. If you have those preconceived notions, you probably leave a lot more water in your brush than I am leaving or was advocating. Please note that I did not ever say either of those things in the instructions; they grew up like a weed by some sort of spontaneous generation.
Here's another thing I would probably change. Once you start lathering, if the protolather is bubbly, it really means that your brush was too wet to begin with, and the problem, while solvable by continuing to lather on the puck, is a difficult one and a bit of sticky widget. Maybe it should say that if you get a bubbly protolather you started with a brush that was too wet.
I apologize for all the confusion my instructions have apparently wrought; but to be fair to myself, I think a fair bit of the problems were not in the instructions per se but in the way people's preconceived notions played into their interpretation of the instructions. I'm happy to change them or to have TheVez do it at Michelle's discretion, because I do think they could be improved quite a bit by a few word changes.
By the way, after going to the bowl I stand by all the instructions with regard to adding very small amounts of water, fully incorporating said small amounts of water before adding more, and not using overly vigorous stirring. These are methods that will lead most surely to the awesome lathers that I have been getting with MW soaps.
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I agree with TheVez2. I started using MW soaps just 6 weeks into my DE shaving experience and have always found them to be very easy to lather. I don't doubt that others have had trouble, though it does baffle me. I initially had problems with the soap drying but that was easily remedied by using more water. I find MW to lather as easy as anything else I have.
For me, dry brush, wet brush, it doesn't really matter, it's all worked. Gentle on the soap, aggressive on the soap, same thing, it all works.
Last night I used MW LotV lather as a prep and out of curiosity, decided to do what recent instructions have said not to do. I started with a nearly dripping Turk No. 6 pony brush, I attacked the soap aggressively, went to the face, again being aggressive. When it was time to add water I used hot water and I dipped the tips in at least a half inch and went back to swirling.
The result was gobs of awesome lather. Since this was used as a prep, I only made one pass, but this is what it looked like (and this is not the best lather I've ever had with MW, but it was still pretty awesome):
I'm hoping nothing gets changed in this formulation, or if it's does, only very slightly. I just don't have any issue getting a great lather with this stuff. I'm sure that the picture is not up to everyone's standard, and perhaps with 5 or 10 more years under my belt I'll have higher standards, but with MW soaps I'm getting tons of slick cushiony lather, an awesome irritation free shave, consistent DFS or better, and great feeling skin when it's all done. I'm not sure what more I could want. Mystic Water soaps is in my top three.
For me, dry brush, wet brush, it doesn't really matter, it's all worked. Gentle on the soap, aggressive on the soap, same thing, it all works.
Last night I used MW LotV lather as a prep and out of curiosity, decided to do what recent instructions have said not to do. I started with a nearly dripping Turk No. 6 pony brush, I attacked the soap aggressively, went to the face, again being aggressive. When it was time to add water I used hot water and I dipped the tips in at least a half inch and went back to swirling.
The result was gobs of awesome lather. Since this was used as a prep, I only made one pass, but this is what it looked like (and this is not the best lather I've ever had with MW, but it was still pretty awesome):
I'm hoping nothing gets changed in this formulation, or if it's does, only very slightly. I just don't have any issue getting a great lather with this stuff. I'm sure that the picture is not up to everyone's standard, and perhaps with 5 or 10 more years under my belt I'll have higher standards, but with MW soaps I'm getting tons of slick cushiony lather, an awesome irritation free shave, consistent DFS or better, and great feeling skin when it's all done. I'm not sure what more I could want. Mystic Water soaps is in my top three.
@5savages...great looking lather and glad you have found success early on with this soap.
@kingfisher....sorry if i aimed any of my negative results or frustration at your instructions, like i had said in a previous post, it was more then likely me misreading or not watching the videos and paying attention and thinking to myself "i don't need to watch or read this, i know what i'm doing"....clearly i was wrong. i'm guessing i got caught up in the old game of reading posts and hearsay instead of going to the source for help/directions
i am happy to report my 1st successful, enjoyable shave with MW this morning. thick lather, cream (thined out slightly a few times, but nothing near what was happening in the past to me) and my face feels wonderful. i ended with some lather on my face during clean up (as i do with QS, KL and MWF), cool rinse and QC ASB (tester) and my face feels and looks great. no irritation, no redness.
on a side note...i had recorded a "lather video" to post, but with all the directions and misdirections etc, i will not be posting it. i probably say "very dry brush" or "ring dry" or give some directions that may sway or lead some astray. but if you are interested in viewing it, feel free to PM me and i'll send you a YT link to the listing
@kingfisher....sorry if i aimed any of my negative results or frustration at your instructions, like i had said in a previous post, it was more then likely me misreading or not watching the videos and paying attention and thinking to myself "i don't need to watch or read this, i know what i'm doing"....clearly i was wrong. i'm guessing i got caught up in the old game of reading posts and hearsay instead of going to the source for help/directions
i am happy to report my 1st successful, enjoyable shave with MW this morning. thick lather, cream (thined out slightly a few times, but nothing near what was happening in the past to me) and my face feels wonderful. i ended with some lather on my face during clean up (as i do with QS, KL and MWF), cool rinse and QC ASB (tester) and my face feels and looks great. no irritation, no redness.
on a side note...i had recorded a "lather video" to post, but with all the directions and misdirections etc, i will not be posting it. i probably say "very dry brush" or "ring dry" or give some directions that may sway or lead some astray. but if you are interested in viewing it, feel free to PM me and i'll send you a YT link to the listing
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I agree. Maybe I'm just lucky but I find MW very easy to lather. But I will admit that I have somewhere in the neighborhood of 25 soaps and don't have issues with any of them either. Pretty much all my soaps are lathered with the same technique and the same 2 homemade brushes, both 2 band badger.
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Once I realized that my idea of "a few drops of water" and that of the people writing the tutorials were very different, I started using the Vez/Sticky Thread method, too. Before that it was taking me 7-10 minutes to get enough water in the lather, just letting 4-5 drops of water fall off my wet fingers.
The original B&B instructions and Mantic's videos are where I learned to lather soap. My only criticism of the original instructions is that they underestimate loading time...a newbie is far better off loading way, way more soap than they need. There should of also been a demonstration using a hard soap, not just the VDH type stuff in the tutorial.
Further, even though I have developed, my "own method" for loading soaps over time, I have no problem going back to the basics. Look at my recent Edwin Jagger thread...that is pretty much the textbook B&B method, with some very, very slight modifications.
AFA the Marco Method goes, I started using more water with stuff like Valobra soft soap because the "dry method" didn't yield good results for me. As a beginner, I really had a tough time with it. But I figured out the more water thing on my own, before the Marco Method was popularized here and I don't use nearly the amount of water that Marco Method advocates use. I also agree that it doesn't work very well with this soap.
Very interesting results you guys are getting here. 5savages, the lather on your face looks a lot better than what I think you posted before. If that lather held up during the shave and under heat, I suspect one would get a very nice shaving experience.
Looking forward to more pics and JC's extensive testing.
Further, even though I have developed, my "own method" for loading soaps over time, I have no problem going back to the basics. Look at my recent Edwin Jagger thread...that is pretty much the textbook B&B method, with some very, very slight modifications.
AFA the Marco Method goes, I started using more water with stuff like Valobra soft soap because the "dry method" didn't yield good results for me. As a beginner, I really had a tough time with it. But I figured out the more water thing on my own, before the Marco Method was popularized here and I don't use nearly the amount of water that Marco Method advocates use. I also agree that it doesn't work very well with this soap.
Very interesting results you guys are getting here. 5savages, the lather on your face looks a lot better than what I think you posted before. If that lather held up during the shave and under heat, I suspect one would get a very nice shaving experience.
Looking forward to more pics and JC's extensive testing.
As am I!
