Head-to-Head Mystic Water vs RazoRock Artisan!
- Thread starter JCinPA
- Start date
This morning, I did a different method than yesterday. I loaded a dry brush with a lot of product. I then dipped the tips of the brush into water and lathered on the puck for at least a minute (maybe even 90 seconds). After I lathered on the puck, I got my face wet and face lathered for another minute or so. The result was excellent lather (easily comparable to MWF or DRH for me). As usual, the performance was exceptional. Great protection, great lubrication, and a great shave. I fell that it was better than yesterday's shave when I had the disappearing lather, but that I still got DFS on both days.
I really think the trick to this soap is to add water slowly. If there is too much water, it gets airy and foamy. But the right amount of water, and you get dense peaks. Also, for me at least, face lathering works way better than bowl lathering. To be fair, I am not a fan of bowl lathering to begin with, but I am at least competent.
I really think the trick to this soap is to add water slowly. If there is too much water, it gets airy and foamy. But the right amount of water, and you get dense peaks. Also, for me at least, face lathering works way better than bowl lathering. To be fair, I am not a fan of bowl lathering to begin with, but I am at least competent.
k2clones, thanks for your interesting thoughts.
I, too, have come to use less water and first and then add it very little at a time. I usually add literally 2 or maybe 3 drops, incorporate it fully, then add 2 or 3 more, etc., until I get the lather the way I like it. I bowl lather, and I use the exact same method for every soap in my arsenal, so I guess I didn't think about it much.
I, too, have come to use less water and first and then add it very little at a time. I usually add literally 2 or maybe 3 drops, incorporate it fully, then add 2 or 3 more, etc., until I get the lather the way I like it. I bowl lather, and I use the exact same method for every soap in my arsenal, so I guess I didn't think about it much.
They win in ease of lather, but in my opinion, MW wins in scents and is at least on par (or has an edge) in shave performance. The four MW soaps I have are Bay Rum, Coconut, Orange & Vanilla, and Marrakesh, all outstanding scents. RR doesn't have any of these (or anything close to them). It is definitely a YMMV thing, but to me, the scents outweigh the ease of lathering.
K2clones29-
I, too, am getting great results with MW soap. I have the unscented, and though the last thing I need is another puck of soap (particularly with 12 Mama Bear samples to arrive tomorrow), would you mind to describe the Marrakesh scent. Michelle says some have described it as "clean dirt". Im not a fan of a vetiver type fragrance, but am curious to know about this scent. Thanks
Definitely YMMV. I'd rather have an easy lathering soap than something that smells better but is harder to lather. To me, RR had much better performance as well.
has anyone else tried or used the Coconut? i'm wondering even more now about the "bad batch theory" as someone had alluded to.
i had a sample of LIME and had no issues lathering (from what i remember) and it's the reason i ordered a full puck of coconut. if i had issues with the LIME i'm sure i would have remembered and not ordered another, so i'm really puzzled and curious now.
i had a sample of LIME and had no issues lathering (from what i remember) and it's the reason i ordered a full puck of coconut. if i had issues with the LIME i'm sure i would have remembered and not ordered another, so i'm really puzzled and curious now.
That's one of the few flavors I haven't tried because I can't stand coconut (unless it's in german chocolate cake frosting).
I just finished my sample of the coconut scented MW soap. I have found this soap to be fantastic for my face. I do not know what skin healing property is in this soap but there is some ingredient in it that works great.
During my testing out this soap I skipped a day and used MdC,the MW left my face feeling better than when I used the MdC and the MdC cost $60.
Also the coconut scent smells great.
During my testing out this soap I skipped a day and used MdC,the MW left my face feeling better than when I used the MdC and the MdC cost $60.
Also the coconut scent smells great.
well that squashed that theory. it's all from the same initial batch, so it must be "user error" (user by ME in this case).
thanks for clearing that up. glad you are getting great results from it.
What if someone getting consistently great results trades with someone getting consistently poor results?
my soap is in penmanships hands now, so we'll see what he says. he was getting good results with his (a different scent) but when i described my issues, he said he'd be on the lookout for it.
well that squashed that theory. it's all from the same initial batch, so it must be "user error" (user by ME in this case).
I'm not sure I buy that, you're a a pretty experienced lather maker and I suspect there are other variables at play. I tried the sandalwood tonight (just my 3rd outing with MW soap), love the scent btw, and got a decent lather and a very nice shave. Also very conditioning as my skin feels terrific. Rather than RR, I think it's better compared to another tallow soap like QCS. In that regard, the QCS is the easier fool-proof lather that would be the one I'd recommend first. That said, the MW has qualities that will keep me buying it in the future.
Clean dirt is apt. It's a rich scent. Very mysterious and deep. There are heavy earth tones, but there are also subtle amber notes. It reminds me of a camp fire or burning incense. I honestly can't say whether it is vetiver or not because I've never smelled it. I would equate it more to something like Mama Bear Masonic Lodge.
I have Coconut. Spot on scent. I find it better than Trumper's! Same deal lathering this as the others I have. I have to load a dry brush, add water slowly, lather on the puck first, then face lather. No problems with it as long as I stick to this regiment. If you like coconut, though, get this soap!
- Thread starter
- #117
JCinPA
The Lather Maestro
Eureka!
We have had a breakthrough! Yayyyyy!
This was beginning to become a real personal challenge, and the military and the black belt in me was just not going to let me give up. Plus, I've always bragged that I have not come across anything yet I couldn't lather in 4-5 runs, so it was REALLY getting stuck in my craw!
Last night, I lathered almost everything in my cabinet for 45 minutes just to make sure I hadn't 'lost my mojo'. This morning, I just couldn't take it any more, so I tried a sample of RazoRock XXX Clutch Cargo gave me. Tonight, aided, perhaps, by a couple of Jack Daniels, I watched TheVez2's mug lathering video three times. Then went into the bathroom and did ... this...
Well, you'll have to go below the rest of my post to see the photo, I can't embed it inline, I guess. I'm sorry for the crappy cell phone pic, I can't for the life of me figure out how to get it to focus. But you can see what I am excited about in that stiff peak sticking out to the right of the knot. Wow! Since I get that every time I use the RazoRock, I think I need to restart my alternating-day comparison all over again, now that I have it figured out.
So, FIRST, my apologies to Michelle. This is a fantastic shaving soap. I am anxious to give it a thorough wringing out because now that I have this figured out, I do think you have a potentially top-tier product here. My apologies for all the confusion.
Now, SECOND ... and this is to be fair to cvac, Brucered, a handful of others--and to me, your directions are awful (no offense, Kingfisher). You need to completely rewrite them, and unfortunately, toss all the cards you have already printed. Your calling this a "soft Italian-style shaving soap" is also confusing. It's not. It's completely different ... but perhaps as good or better.
Italian soft soaps tend to vary a bit, but they are also pretty similar. Proraso (and the Omega variant), Cella, the RazoRock cream series, and even the Artisan line, which is a bit different, will all respond to "Marco's Method". A Semogue SOC will hold more water than an Omega Professional series brush, so you may have to pump a little water out of one and not another. But the method is similar for all of them. Start with a wet brush and slowly build the lather on the soap, then move to the face or a bowl and continue building.
Your calling this a "soft Italian-style soap" and Kingfishers instructions on your card, and I quote, "... soak your shaving brush in hot water, take it out of the water, let the water drip until no more drips out, then give two or maybe three moderate shakes, but don't squeeze out the water. Take this relatively wet brush to the soap and begin to swirl lightly. If the lather looks foamy of airy right away, keep lathering on top of the puck until it thickens. ...." and so it continues.
Not working. This is not an Italian soft soap. I was furiously trying to apply this version of the basic Marco Method and frustrating the dickens out of myself. I suspect so were cvac and brucered. We were so determined to make this work and so convinced this was an "Italian soft soap" we just kept going at it, hammer and tongs, and getting runny, airy, disappearing lather. We may as well have been banging our heads against the wall. Kingfisher, if you can follow the instructions on the card and get it to work, you at least have to agree that way can best be described as 'finicky'.
Enter TheVez2! *golf clapping* Thank you, sir, for the most excellent videos! I had to watch them several times, intently, with a Jack Daniels. That reminds me, I'm empty, BRB.
Sorry, needed a refill. Anyway, I sallied into the shave den to do battle with the MW once again. Soaked my silvertip badger, wrung in almost completely out and went to work on the soap. It was a little dry, I started to get those 'gummy tendrils' cvac posted about earlier. I dipped just the tips of the brush in water, shook once, and went back to work on the soap. Aha! What to my wondering eyes did appear? That whipped cream looking stuff in TheVez2's video! About 30 seconds and to the bowl.
Whipping, whipping, whipping... just a dribble of water ... whipping ... a little more water, and VOILA! Magnificent lather! Wow! Loverly stuff! I almost cried! And the scent ... I am going to be ruined by this soap, I just know it.
Anyway, it worked, in spades.
Michelle, based on my great shaves (I had enough lather, apparently, thin though it was, to get very nice shaves through this whole cycle of tests), and my newfound ability to get it to behave properly convinces me you are on the verge of a product in the QCS, RazoRock, Cella, and Tabac category. It does lather within a fairly narrow range of technique, so I would not categorize this as 'easy to lather', but it works. Perhaps with one of those minor tweaks you are sending me you will open the range of latherability a bit wider, but you are very close to a world-beating product, I have no doubt.
Again, Kingfisher, no offense, and your efforts are much appreciated, but I would make the following suggestion. First, have TheVez2 rewrite your instruction card, if he is willing. Second, embed or at least put links to both his excellent videos on your shave soap webpage. Then direct people to go to your website and view those videos in your instruction card. Starting with way too much water was probably what was giving us fits. I believe the problem was not with your soap at all, nor with our 'technique', at least in the sense that we don't know what we are doing. The constant comparison to "Italian soft soap" which we are expert at lathering, coupled with the instruction card, was leading us to treat this like Cella or RazoRock, and that is without a doubt the wrong way to approach your product. It does neatly explain why several experienced latherers were having such consistent issues, however.
I am going to go lather this once more tonight, just to get the practice in. Then my next post will be after tomorrow's shave. I am wildly optimistic about tomorrow's shave.
I thank you all for your patience, and I thank you all for continuing to post tips in this thread. There are a few of you who lobbed a couple of really good clues out there. But it was TheVez2 who saved the day. I suggest you keep him in free soap for the duration of his deployment, Michelle! By the way, I love your music choice, Vez!
Later, gents.
We have had a breakthrough! Yayyyyy!
This was beginning to become a real personal challenge, and the military and the black belt in me was just not going to let me give up. Plus, I've always bragged that I have not come across anything yet I couldn't lather in 4-5 runs, so it was REALLY getting stuck in my craw!
Last night, I lathered almost everything in my cabinet for 45 minutes just to make sure I hadn't 'lost my mojo'. This morning, I just couldn't take it any more, so I tried a sample of RazoRock XXX Clutch Cargo gave me. Tonight, aided, perhaps, by a couple of Jack Daniels, I watched TheVez2's mug lathering video three times. Then went into the bathroom and did ... this...
Well, you'll have to go below the rest of my post to see the photo, I can't embed it inline, I guess. I'm sorry for the crappy cell phone pic, I can't for the life of me figure out how to get it to focus. But you can see what I am excited about in that stiff peak sticking out to the right of the knot. Wow! Since I get that every time I use the RazoRock, I think I need to restart my alternating-day comparison all over again, now that I have it figured out.
So, FIRST, my apologies to Michelle. This is a fantastic shaving soap. I am anxious to give it a thorough wringing out because now that I have this figured out, I do think you have a potentially top-tier product here. My apologies for all the confusion.
Now, SECOND ... and this is to be fair to cvac, Brucered, a handful of others--and to me, your directions are awful (no offense, Kingfisher). You need to completely rewrite them, and unfortunately, toss all the cards you have already printed. Your calling this a "soft Italian-style shaving soap" is also confusing. It's not. It's completely different ... but perhaps as good or better.
Italian soft soaps tend to vary a bit, but they are also pretty similar. Proraso (and the Omega variant), Cella, the RazoRock cream series, and even the Artisan line, which is a bit different, will all respond to "Marco's Method". A Semogue SOC will hold more water than an Omega Professional series brush, so you may have to pump a little water out of one and not another. But the method is similar for all of them. Start with a wet brush and slowly build the lather on the soap, then move to the face or a bowl and continue building.
Your calling this a "soft Italian-style soap" and Kingfishers instructions on your card, and I quote, "... soak your shaving brush in hot water, take it out of the water, let the water drip until no more drips out, then give two or maybe three moderate shakes, but don't squeeze out the water. Take this relatively wet brush to the soap and begin to swirl lightly. If the lather looks foamy of airy right away, keep lathering on top of the puck until it thickens. ...." and so it continues.
Not working. This is not an Italian soft soap. I was furiously trying to apply this version of the basic Marco Method and frustrating the dickens out of myself. I suspect so were cvac and brucered. We were so determined to make this work and so convinced this was an "Italian soft soap" we just kept going at it, hammer and tongs, and getting runny, airy, disappearing lather. We may as well have been banging our heads against the wall. Kingfisher, if you can follow the instructions on the card and get it to work, you at least have to agree that way can best be described as 'finicky'.
Enter TheVez2! *golf clapping* Thank you, sir, for the most excellent videos! I had to watch them several times, intently, with a Jack Daniels. That reminds me, I'm empty, BRB.
Sorry, needed a refill. Anyway, I sallied into the shave den to do battle with the MW once again. Soaked my silvertip badger, wrung in almost completely out and went to work on the soap. It was a little dry, I started to get those 'gummy tendrils' cvac posted about earlier. I dipped just the tips of the brush in water, shook once, and went back to work on the soap. Aha! What to my wondering eyes did appear? That whipped cream looking stuff in TheVez2's video! About 30 seconds and to the bowl.
Whipping, whipping, whipping... just a dribble of water ... whipping ... a little more water, and VOILA! Magnificent lather! Wow! Loverly stuff! I almost cried! And the scent ... I am going to be ruined by this soap, I just know it.
Anyway, it worked, in spades.Michelle, based on my great shaves (I had enough lather, apparently, thin though it was, to get very nice shaves through this whole cycle of tests), and my newfound ability to get it to behave properly convinces me you are on the verge of a product in the QCS, RazoRock, Cella, and Tabac category. It does lather within a fairly narrow range of technique, so I would not categorize this as 'easy to lather', but it works. Perhaps with one of those minor tweaks you are sending me you will open the range of latherability a bit wider, but you are very close to a world-beating product, I have no doubt.
Again, Kingfisher, no offense, and your efforts are much appreciated, but I would make the following suggestion. First, have TheVez2 rewrite your instruction card, if he is willing. Second, embed or at least put links to both his excellent videos on your shave soap webpage. Then direct people to go to your website and view those videos in your instruction card. Starting with way too much water was probably what was giving us fits. I believe the problem was not with your soap at all, nor with our 'technique', at least in the sense that we don't know what we are doing. The constant comparison to "Italian soft soap" which we are expert at lathering, coupled with the instruction card, was leading us to treat this like Cella or RazoRock, and that is without a doubt the wrong way to approach your product. It does neatly explain why several experienced latherers were having such consistent issues, however.
I am going to go lather this once more tonight, just to get the practice in. Then my next post will be after tomorrow's shave. I am wildly optimistic about tomorrow's shave.
I thank you all for your patience, and I thank you all for continuing to post tips in this thread. There are a few of you who lobbed a couple of really good clues out there. But it was TheVez2 who saved the day. I suggest you keep him in free soap for the duration of his deployment, Michelle!
By the way, I love your music choice, Vez!Later, gents.
Last edited:
- Thread starter
- #118
JCinPA
The Lather Maestro
I'm so happy, I'm going to have another Jack Daniels. I hope I'm not too shaky to shave in the morning.
Looks nice.
I'm not offended that you trashed my instructions. If you recall, earlier in this very thread I essentially trashed my own instructions. It must've been about 5 or 6 days after I wrote them that I realized that I was starting my lathers with a drier brush than the instructions stated. I tried to point that out to you way earlier in this thread.
In other words, my daily lathering with the product doesn't reflect the instructions that I wrote early on. I don't think it responds to a dry brush very well, either, the way I lather Mama Bears. I was trying to get people to shake most of the water out of the brush but I was afraid that if they squeezed the brush it would end up too dry to start the emulsification process. Day to day I give my brush a gentle squeeze before loading, but I know how much water I'm squeezing out; it wasn't clear to me that the average Joe would get it right if they tried squeezing.
I'm happy to rewrite the instructions or to have TheVez do it; whatever makes it so the widest variety of people can enjoy this awesome soap works for me.
I'm not offended that you trashed my instructions. If you recall, earlier in this very thread I essentially trashed my own instructions. It must've been about 5 or 6 days after I wrote them that I realized that I was starting my lathers with a drier brush than the instructions stated. I tried to point that out to you way earlier in this thread.
In other words, my daily lathering with the product doesn't reflect the instructions that I wrote early on. I don't think it responds to a dry brush very well, either, the way I lather Mama Bears. I was trying to get people to shake most of the water out of the brush but I was afraid that if they squeezed the brush it would end up too dry to start the emulsification process. Day to day I give my brush a gentle squeeze before loading, but I know how much water I'm squeezing out; it wasn't clear to me that the average Joe would get it right if they tried squeezing.
I'm happy to rewrite the instructions or to have TheVez do it; whatever makes it so the widest variety of people can enjoy this awesome soap works for me.
WOW, that is great looking lather and so glad you got it to work. my puck has moved one (to another B&B member), but i'll keep these tips in mind, next time i have a puck.....darnit...i just gave it to him today too, time to email him and ask for it back 
let's hope it shaves as good as it looks.
congrats.....
let's hope it shaves as good as it looks.
congrats.....
