Really peculiar problem

Hey guys,

It wasn't until about a month ago that I went full-on distilled water shave. After what I thought were brush problems due to aging turned out to be hard water issues. I really do want to go back to plain water for the sake of convenience but every time I do... same issue!

Regardless of whether I use a relatively drier brush or a wetter brush to start it always happens. As I start to work the lather everything seems fine. When my lather is apparently built it seems fine. What happens, however, is that the lather tends to dry out quickly BUT the inside of my brush, close to the knot, is heavy and wet! I have even resorted to a mini spray bottle to control my addition of water since I thought that was the problem but I always end up with under-hydrated tips and over-hydrated breach. It's really really mind boggling because I've never read about anyone having this problem. As I squeeze the brush for my clean up pass to get the lather out, initially it looks good and then I get this flood of water from the bottom *facepalm*. Before this started happening I had shaved with an underhydrated lather for the better part of 4 or so years, I just lathered my face in stages to avoid flaking.

I have tried this with a couple different badger brushes (my EJ best and my Simpson Colonel) and with a variety of different soaps. It happens whether I FL or BL... but only with tap water! Distilled water - no problems, regardless what brush I use! Is there some chemical reaction going on here that I'm unaware of?

Here's the kicker... tap water with my Omega 66 boar - no issues! What the heck?! Seems like if I want to skip the distilled water I need to reach for my Omega exclusively. Super confused! Any input would be GREATLY appreciated!

Thanks gents!

Welcome aboard!
I have hard tap water as well and what did it for me was to load my brush more. It could be the reason why your boar works when the badgers don't. AFAIK, boar brushes go way harder on the soap than the badgers.

Additionally, as I've read somewhere, boar brushes hold the water in the bristles, as opposed to the badgers, which hold the water between them. So this could be why your Omega works better. Take this with a grain of salt, because I can't link you to it and it could be total bs.

That said, I have the EJ travel best badger and I don't face any problems, but I use almost exclusively the Omega 49.

Edit for a dumb question: How long do you soak your brushes before you lather?

I would add a bit more soap or cream so that (if you use a bowl) you have a good build up of lather. If you don't use a bowl or scuttle I would suggest getting one and you will have more than enough lather.

Merry Christmas, welcome to B&B. I second load the brush with more product. Do you bowl lather? When I load a brush with product my tell that I have enough product is when the bristles stick together and I feel friction on the puck from loading.

I've tried with bowl lathering and face lathering and still get the same result. It only happens when using tap water and any of my badger brushes. No problems either way with the boar, even if I start with it heavily pre-soaked.

AvariCe said:

How long do you soak your brushes before you lather?

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I've tried variations of this and it doesn't seem to make a difference. I typically soak while I shower so ~10 minutes. I've tried 3 minutes and I've tried just running it under the tap. I've tried leaving the water in, shaking it off gently, violently as well as squeezing the water out heavily. I've tried with the puck pre-soaked and dry. Lol - *bashes head on wall*.

I really believed (and to an extent still believe) there's something wrong with my method regardless of what iterations of the above I use, but the fact that I get a totally different result from the Omega is leaving me bewildered. I've tried to compensate by loading the brushes more to no effect. I'm going to test a bowl lather tonight with way more product than I'm used to (I'll probably swirl for a good minute on the Tabac with a shaken, not squeezed, brush) and report back here with the results (and probably pictures as well). After years of this, I'm determined to resolve it with your guys' help!

I also soak my brush while showering. I load up my brush with Proraso and then swirl 29 to the right and 29 to the left (don't have a reason for that number). If it does not fill the bowl with creamy lather, I add a bit of water to the brush so that my brush looks like and ice cream cone when I apply the lather.

Why not take your test to the extreme?
Pre soak the puck, have the brush shake the brush gently once or twice just to stop dripping water (after a good soak ofc) and load for a good minute and a half at least (otherwise known as Marco's method).
Then bowl lather and whip it like your life depends on it, adding water in small increments, and see how that goes.
Another question that just popped into my mind: What is the temperature of the water when you lather? I've read somewhere (again I can't link, my memory and browsing history be damned) that if you make a lather with hot water and let it cool off, it dries really fast.
Keep us updated!

I also have hard lather so I go a little overboard. I soak the soap and brush in hot water while I shower for 10-15 minutes, then I use the very damp brush to load the soap. I also pour a little of the soapy water off the puck into the bowl with a bit of proto lather from loading and then whip like my life depends on it. After some practice I get a great lather every time.

AvariCe said:

What is the temperature of the water when you lather? I've read somewhere (again I can't link, my memory and browsing history be damned) that if you make a lather with hot water and let it cool off, it dries really fast.
Keep us updated!

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Great point. I do think I read something to this effect previously as well but disregarded it in my scatterbrained state of mind at the time. I do soak the brush and soap in hot water.

Tonight I"m going to try warm rather than hot water, with a solid soak with just a shake or two for excess water (no squeeze) from the brush and a well pre-soaked puck of Tabac. I'll use my EJ that I've had for years so there's no question about the brush not being broken in or anything like that. Will post the full documentary with photos either tonight or tomorrow morning!

I'm a new guy, so my knowledge base is nil, but it sure sounds like you've changed-up the variables in every which way. The water always seems to be the only constant when you have a less-than-desirable lather.

One thing I didn't note (or I missed) is whether this is the same problem with various soaps/lathers? The distilled water always gives a good lather? Interesting discussion, I learn something new here every day!

Just curious, but are you using a hard or soft soap? If you use a hard soap, I completely agree with you. I get better results from my boar, but I don't think it's just the stiffness of the bristles. Something about the way the badgers hold water makes my hard soaps lather up too airy. To combat that, I have to load longer, starting with less water in the brush initially, and slowly adding water as I load. I actually build my lather a little on the puck before going to my face as well. It's seemed to help me get more product loaded in the first place.

jcs266 said:

One thing I didn't note (or I missed) is whether this is the same problem with various soaps/lathers? The distilled water always gives a good lather?

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Yeah, unfortunately same problem has occurred regardless of whether I used a hard soap or a cream. From what I've read and now personal experience, hard water doesn't create soap suds as easily and just prevents soaps in general from lathering well, requiring more product. When I tried distilled water with my boar brush and a hard soap, I had the greatest lather ever. At about $1.50/gallon for distilled water, IMO it's worth it.

gwsmallwood said:

Just curious, but are you using a hard or soft soap?

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I would consider Tabac a hard soap, but I've had similar experiences with creams as well. I can't comment on a soft soap because I haven't tried yet. My tub of Cella just came in this week so I'll be giving that a try soon.

So I tried a test run using an "extreme" method, not quite like Marco's method but it definitely left me surprised. I am going to need a lather expert to interpret what I witnessed, but it's nothing short of incredible (at least to me)! I'm going to post it in a separate thread I think since I took lots of pictures as well. Hopefully it will provide some additional insight for wet shaving newbies and be a worthwhile read. I will link it here once I've got it all organized.

AvariCe said:

Welcome aboard!
I have hard tap water as well and what did it for me was to load my brush more. It could be the reason why your boar works when the badgers don't. AFAIK, boar brushes go way harder on the soap than the badgers.


Edit for a dumb question: How long do you soak your brushes before you lather?

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I put my brush in hot water in the Scuttle while I shower, so guess it's 4-5 minutes. Parker silvertip brush.

Update: here is the link to the thread, in case you haven't seen it yet!

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/436570-Hard-water-lather-(with-pics!

gwsmallwood said:

Just curious, but are you using a hard or soft soap? If you use a hard soap, I completely agree with you. I get better results from my boar, but I don't think it's just the stiffness of the bristles. Something about the way the badgers hold water makes my hard soaps lather up too airy. To combat that, I have to load longer, starting with less water in the brush initially, and slowly adding water as I load. I actually build my lather a little on the puck before going to my face as well. It's seemed to help me get more product loaded in the first place.

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+1

I also have hard water and have had my problems building lather. It looks like my water hardness is >180 gm/L (or 10+ grains/gal) according to this USGS page: http://water.usgs.gov/edu/hardness.html

Baking soda added to the bowl soaking the brush and also added to a sink full of hot water for the shave, has proved to help my lather building process. This trick has also cut down on the soap/cream build up on my razor, blade, brush, and the sink. Clean up is WAY easier since I started adding baking soda, because hard water doesn't do a very good job of rinsing either.

I have to give B&B member Blaireau&Lame credit for this little trick after reading his post in this thread: http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/136795-I-Found-The-Problem

Baking soda is pretty cheap, too.

Blade4vor said:

Baking soda added to the bowl soaking the brush and also added to a sink full of hot water for the shave, has proved to help my lather building process. This trick has also cut down on the soap/cream build up on my razor, blade, brush, and the sink. Clean up is WAY easier since I started adding baking soda, because hard water doesn't do a very good job of rinsing either.

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I think I've read about this somewhere as well. I've got baking soda laying around in my fridge all the time so I may try this out. It does save time and there's the convenience of not having to warm up the distilled water. I'll give this a go sometime this week and see what happens. Thanks for the tip, and thanks for the awesome feedback everyone!

keller said:

I think I've read about this somewhere as well. I've got baking soda laying around in my fridge all the time so I may try this out. It does save time and there's the convenience of not having to warm up the distilled water. I'll give this a go sometime this week and see what happens. Thanks for the tip, and thanks for the awesome feedback everyone!

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Keep us posted on your progress.....

Update: http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/436570-Hard-water-lather-(with-pics! some really great info and experiences in this thread. Definitely recommend checking it out if you've been following the posts here and struggle with hard water.