Gillette Single Rings with British Patent Numbers

Ace McCool · Apr 3, 2014

Getting off topic, but more info on the G mark! It may be solved.

http://www.silvercollection.it/dictionarydecryptingsilverplatemarks.html

"The marks of electroplated silver were often inspired to the hallmarking used for sterling silver and the maker was identified by its initials inside a series of squares, circles, shields, etc. The effect was apparently similar to sterling silver hallmarks, obtaining the result to gratify the buyer's pride to exhibit a high value object and the unconfessed objective to deceive inexperienced people."

"Usually the initials were in capital letters, often in "Gothic" characters. Less frequently the maker's name was written in full or was represented by a figural trade mark."

Here is a list of many silver plating marks from other manufacturers that started with G:

http://www.silvercollection.it/SILVERPLATEHALLMARKSG.html

After reading this it almost seems like it was not a Government requirement but possibly something Gillette did to increase appeal. But why would they have only done it to their French sets and not all their British sets...

mr-razor · Apr 3, 2014

Ace McCool said:
...
After reading this it almost seems like it was not a Government requirement but possibly something Gillette did to increase appeal. But why would they have only done it to their French sets and not all their British sets...

and on gold plated razors too

Ace McCool · Apr 3, 2014

mr-razor said:
and on gold plated razors too

Yes like the example Porter posted of the NEW. Looking at the examples that other companies used in the second link I posted, I would assume the G and Diamond in the Shield on those NEWs would represent Gillette and their trade mark Diamond shaped logo. This gives pretty strong evidence that this was Gillettes own plating mark and not an import mark required by government. Their mark probably started out as the G inside a D (shield or cartouche) shape, and was later changed or modified to be a G and Diamond inside the Shield.

Edit: it may have been required by French government, or may have been something Gillette did on their own. But the mark is certainly their own, and not a general mark used on all plated or imported items.

alex2363 · Apr 3, 2014

Ace McCool said:
Getting off topic, but more info on the G mark! It may be solved.

http://www.silvercollection.it/dictionarydecryptingsilverplatemarks.html

"The marks of electroplated silver were often inspired to the hallmarking used for sterling silver and the maker was identified by its initials inside a series of squares, circles, shields, etc. The effect was apparently similar to sterling silver hallmarks, obtaining the result to gratify the buyer's pride to exhibit a high value object and the unconfessed objective to deceive inexperienced people."

"Usually the initials were in capital letters, often in "Gothic" characters. Less frequently the maker's name was written in full or was represented by a figural trade mark."

Here is a list of many silver plating marks from other manufacturers that started with G:

http://www.silvercollection.it/SILVERPLATEHALLMARKSG.html

After reading this it almost seems like it was not a Government requirement but possibly something Gillette did to increase appeal. But why would they have only done it to their French sets and not all their British sets...

As stated, most likely it was not meant as an appeal thing ,but a designation thing. Gillette was a company that was not always organized and past razor classifications or other ID issues has proven this...... by the way that is some great research you have done.

GBinOZ · Apr 3, 2014

Achim, for your razors G 5031 and H711612, are you able to confirm that the patent number on the razor has "Brit." rather than "Br." and "of 02" rather than ".02"? Also, does either razor have the Gillette diamond logo?
Thank you
George

mr-razor · Apr 3, 2014

GBinOZ said:
Achim, for your razors G 5031 and H711612, are you able to confirm that the patent number on the razor has "Brit." rather than "Br." and "of 02" rather than ".02"? Also, does either razor have the Gillette diamond logo?
Thank you
George

I´ve just only find the gold one G 5031. It says: BR.PAT.No28.763 OF `02 without Gillette diamond logo.

mblakele · Apr 3, 2014

mr-razor said:
and on gold plated razors too

Right, there is one pictured at http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/246887-G-inside-D-repair-stamp for example.

But sometimes gold is plated over a layer of silver plating. Not always: copper can also be used, or other metals. I believe 1940s-50s Aristocrats have nickel under the gold, often visible where the center bar, doors, or safety bars are worn. Anyway close examination of a gold-plated G-in-D razor might reveal a spot where the gold has worn off, and show what is underneath. If Gillette plated gold over silver, then that might explain the marking.

There might not be any inconsistency anyway. We know a fair bit about the way hallmarks were used in the UK, but nothing for certain about the reason for the G-in-D marking. If it had something to do with French law or custom or guild rules, perhaps a member from France could help?

http://www.925-1000.com/Ffrench_marks.html has a very small note on French silver plate, saying that it was marked with a square or cartouche and sometimes a number indicating the thickness of the plating. That fits with previous speculation. There is a bit more at http://www.925-1000.com/a_platenumbers.html mostly about the 19th century, some time before Gillette was making these razors. However it is interesting for background.

After reading through this thread and the various links, I think the Gillette company created the G-in-D mark simply because European customers expected silver-plated objects to be marked in some way. There may or may not have been any law involved, but either way the Gillette salesmen knew the value of good presentation and knew about customer expectations. Look at the way products were packaged: designed to look like a cross between paper currency and fine jewelry. They knew that German and French shoppers would always check silver-plated objects for a mark. So they made sure to add a nice-looking mark to the razors intended for the European market.

GBinOZ · Apr 3, 2014

mr-razor said:
I´ve just only find the gold one G 5031. It says: BR.PAT.No28.763 OF `02 without Gillette diamond logo.

Thank you.
George

Ace McCool · Apr 3, 2014

mblakele said:
If Gillette plated gold over silver, then that might explain the marking.

Since the stamping was done before plating, wouldn't it make more sense that they gave all razors destined for European market this stamp, and then separated them later for either gold or silver plating?

mblakele · Apr 3, 2014

Ace McCool said:
Since the stamping was done before plating, wouldn't it make more sense that they gave all razors destined for European market this stamp, and then separated them later for either gold or silver plating?

Either way it works out the same. If they plated gold over silver, they could still stamp all razors beforehand.

GBinOZ · Apr 3, 2014

mblakele said:
After reading through this thread and the various links, I think the Gillette company created the G-in-D mark simply because European customers expected silver-plated objects to be marked in some way. They knew that German and French shoppers would always check silver-plated objects for a mark. So they made sure to add a nice-looking mark to the razors intended for the European market.

This seems to make the most sense of all, except that if Porter is correct and "F" was for the French market and "G" for the German, then the evidence points toward the GinD being only for the French rather than the European market.

Gentlemen, we seem to have drifted a little off the topic of this thread, that being a compilation of data for single rings with British Patents. My latest table shown below has 3 anomolies, those being H711612, KCC6422 and TC436331. If we set those three aside for the moment it can be seen that, even with the small amount of data gathered so far, there are trends emerging.

Patent Nos
Brit.Pat.No.28763 of 02	1
Br.Pat.No.28763.02	2

			Ser#		Pat#		GinD	Owner	Found	Link
		Inner	Blade		Inner
SERIAL NUMBER	Logo	Cyl	Guard	Hdle	Cyl	Hdle

E102560	No
E202419	Yes			X	2			Elmerwood
E203238	Dble			X	X			Turtledrum		Link
E239300	Dble			X	2			MacDaddy		Link
E266131				X	2			ECD		Link


F021233	No						Yes
F206586	Dble			X	None	None	Yes	Ebay	Turkey
F3.2...	Yes			X			Yes	thekinge		Link

G 5031	No	X				1		Achim		Link
G024867 (ABC)	Dble		Inside		None	None	No	Achim		Link
G051727(Pocket)	Dble		Inside					Nightguard		Link


H000882	No		X			2	No	Ebay	Turkey
H003530	No		X			2	Yes	GBinOZ	France	Link
H028400	Dble		X			2	No	Lord Tech		Link
H060192	Dble			X	2			ItsAllGravy		Link
H076...	Yes			X	X
H094...	Dble			X	2			ERVARGASNY		Link

H711612		X				1		Achim		Link

KCC6422	Yes		X		None	None		Achim		Link

TC436331			X		2			CDK2007		Link

The first thing to notice is that each series E to H has no logo in the early examples progressing to a logo, or a double logo, as each series progresses. This would seem to confirm that the series were all running concurrently.

From the data at hand we can observe that all the E and F series have the serial numbers on the handle. The earliest G series has the Ser # on the cylinder and changes to the blade guard, as would be usually expected, except that they are on the inside of the blade guard. For the H series the ser # progresses in an orderly manner from the blade guard to the handle.

Patent Numbers for the E series are all on the inner cylinder. There is insufficient data to draw conclusions for F and G. For the H series the Pat # progresses from the handle to the inner cylinder in the same orderly manner as for the Ser #.

For the GinD marks, Porter's theory is vindicted in that there are as yet no GinDs in the E or G (England and Germany), but all the F series (France) so far have this mark. Porter speculates that H may stand for Austria-Hungary, which seems reasonable as "A" had already been used by the USA. But one of the H series has the GinD which has otherwise so far been only for the French series, and that razor was purched from a seller in France.

It is clear that the above observations are based on scant data, so as more data hopefully becomes available we may be able to "guesstimate" a chronological assignment of dates to each series.

GBinOZ · Apr 4, 2014

ItsAllGravy said:
Mine has the serial on the band above the twist knob H060192, Br Pat no. 2876302 around the top of the inner barrel, gillette logo on under side of the cap & on the top of the base plate.

Thanks for your contribution.
Does the gillette logo on the cap and base plate have the gillette triangle AND the "Known the World Over" underneath? Is there a GinD on your razor?
Regards
George

alex2363 · Apr 4, 2014

GBinOZ said:
This seems to make the most sense of all, except that if Porter is correct and "F" was for the French market and "G" for the German, then the evidence points toward the GinD being only for the French rather than the European market.

Gentlemen, we seem to have drifted a little off the topic of this thread, that being a compilation of data for single rings with British Patents. My latest table shown below has 3 anomolies, those being H711612, KCC6422 and TC436331. If we set those three aside for the moment it can be seen that, even with the small amount of data gathered so far, there are trends emerging.

Patent Nos
Brit.Pat.No.28763 of 02 1
Br.Pat.No.28763.02 2
Ser# Pat# GinD Owner Found Link
Inner Blade Inner
SERIAL NUMBER Logo Cyl Guard Hdle Cyl Hdle
E102560 No
E202419 Yes X 2 Elmerwood
E203238 Dble X X Turtledrum Link
E239300 Dble X 2 MacDaddy Link
E266131 X 2 ECD Link
F021233 No Yes
F206586 Dble X None None Yes Ebay Turkey
F3.2... Yes X Yes thekinge Link
G 5031 No X 1 Achim Link
G024867 (ABC) Dble Inside None None No Achim Link
G051727(Pocket) Dble Inside Nightguard Link
H000882 No X 2 No Ebay Turkey
H003530 No X 2 Yes GBinOZ France Link
H028400 Dble X 2 No Lord Tech Link
H060192 Dble X 2 ItsAllGravy Link
H076... Yes X X
H094... Dble X 2 ERVARGASNY Link
H711612 X 1 Achim Link
KCC6422 Yes X None None Achim Link
TC436331 X 2 CDK2007 Link

The first thing to notice is that each series E to H has no logo in the early examples progressing to a logo, or a double logo, as each series progresses. This would seem to confirm that the series were all running concurrently.

From the data at hand we can observe that all the E and F series have the serial numbers on the handle. The earliest G series has the Ser # on the cylinder and changes to the blade guard, as would be usually expected, except that they are on the inside of the blade guard. For the H series the ser # progresses in an orderly manner from the blade guard to the handle.

Patent Numbers for the E series are all on the inner cylinder. There is insufficient data to draw conclusions for F and G. For the H series the Pat # progresses from the handle to the inner cylinder in the same orderly manner as for the Ser #.

For the GinD marks, Porter's theory is vindicted in that there are as yet no GinDs in the E or G (England and Germany), but all the F series (France) so far have this mark. Porter speculates that H may stand for Austria-Hungary, which seems reasonable as "A" had already been used by the USA. But one of the H series has the GinD which has otherwise so far been only for the French series, and that razor was purched from a seller in France.

It is clear that the above observations are based on scant data, so as more data hopefully becomes available we may be able to "guesstimate" a chronological assignment of dates to each series.

Why not just put this in Wiki same as the Canadian version that Macdaddy Porter and Mblakele made.

alex2363 · Apr 4, 2014

GBinOZ said:
This seems to make the most sense of all, except that if Porter is correct and "F" was for the French market and "G" for the German, then the evidence points toward the GinD being only for the French rather than the European market.

Gentlemen, we seem to have drifted a little off the topic of this thread, that being a compilation of data for single rings with British Patents. My latest table shown below has 3 anomolies, those being H711612, KCC6422 and TC436331. If we set those three aside for the moment it can be seen that, even with the small amount of data gathered so far, there are trends emerging.

Patent Nos
Brit.Pat.No.28763 of 02 1
Br.Pat.No.28763.02 2
Ser# Pat# GinD Owner Found Link
Inner Blade Inner
SERIAL NUMBER Logo Cyl Guard Hdle Cyl Hdle
E102560 No
E202419 Yes X 2 Elmerwood
E203238 Dble X X Turtledrum Link
E239300 Dble X 2 MacDaddy Link
E266131 X 2 ECD Link
F021233 No Yes
F206586 Dble X None None Yes Ebay Turkey
F3.2... Yes X Yes thekinge Link
G 5031 No X 1 Achim Link
G024867 (ABC) Dble Inside None None No Achim Link
G051727(Pocket) Dble Inside Nightguard Link
H000882 No X 2 No Ebay Turkey
H003530 No X 2 Yes GBinOZ France Link
H028400 Dble X 2 No Lord Tech Link
H060192 Dble X 2 ItsAllGravy Link
H076... Yes X X
H094... Dble X 2 ERVARGASNY Link
H711612 X 1 Achim Link
KCC6422 Yes X None None Achim Link
TC436331 X 2 CDK2007 Link

The first thing to notice is that each series E to H has no logo in the early examples progressing to a logo, or a double logo, as each series progresses. This would seem to confirm that the series were all running concurrently.

From the data at hand we can observe that all the E and F series have the serial numbers on the handle. The earliest G series has the Ser # on the cylinder and changes to the blade guard, as would be usually expected, except that they are on the inside of the blade guard. For the H series the ser # progresses in an orderly manner from the blade guard to the handle.

Patent Numbers for the E series are all on the inner cylinder. There is insufficient data to draw conclusions for F and G. For the H series the Pat # progresses from the handle to the inner cylinder in the same orderly manner as for the Ser #.

For the GinD marks, Porter's theory is vindicted in that there are as yet no GinDs in the E or G (England and Germany), but all the F series (France) so far have this mark. Porter speculates that H may stand for Austria-Hungary, which seems reasonable as "A" had already been used by the USA. But one of the H series has the GinD which has otherwise so far been only for the French series, and that razor was purched from a seller in France.

It is clear that the above observations are based on scant data, so as more data hopefully becomes available we may be able to "guesstimate" a chronological assignment of dates to each series.

Very good observations too. The G/D's are as Porter theorized French market.

GBinOZ · Apr 5, 2014

alex2363 said:
Why not just put this in Wiki same as the Canadian version that Macdaddy Porter and Mblakele made.

I am the new guy on the block and, apart from having no idea of the process, I presume that creating a Wiki would be in the domain of senior members.

Also, I assumed that, as with the Canadian version, a Wiki would become appropriate only when it has been established that there is sufficient interest in the topic. So far there have been only a couple of razor data contributions.

GBinOZ · Apr 5, 2014

I am noticing another anomoly with this data. Each series has examples of razors with no logo and the rest All have the double stamped gillette triangle with the "Known the World Over" underneath, This logo is thought to be used only in 1915/1916 when the Leicester factory was winding down or closed.

I am starting to wonder if the E series means "made in England, the F means "made in France and the G means "made in Germany". There is Gillette advertising showing substantial factories in France and Germany. If they produced razors, where have they gone? Or have they been sitting under our noses all along. The fly in the ointment for this speculation is once again the H series.

alex2363 · Apr 6, 2014

GBinOZ said:
I am the new guy on the block and, apart from having no idea of the process, I presume that creating a Wiki would be in the domain of senior members.

Also, I assumed that, as with the Canadian version, a Wiki would become appropriate only when it has been established that there is sufficient interest in the topic. So far there have been only a couple of razor data contributions.

The shave wiki is for all members to use and contribute, B&B encourages all members to contribute very pertinent information such as your suggestions. This info can be of a great benefit to our shave community as a whole.

alex2363 · Apr 6, 2014

GBinOZ said:
I am noticing another anomoly with this data. Each series has examples of razors with no logo and the rest All have the double stamped gillette triangle with the "Known the World Over" underneath, This logo is thought to be used only in 1915/1916 when the Leicester factory was winding down or closed.

I am starting to wonder if the E series means "made in England, the F means "made in France and the G means "made in Germany". There is Gillette advertising showing substantial factories in France and Germany. If they produced razors, where have they gone? Or have they been sitting under our noses all along. The fly in the ointment for this speculation is once again the H series.

In retrospect the France factory was set up to off set some expiring patents and the space was shared with American Saddle company.The French courts had it closed after they realized Gillette intentions was to work the patent and not make any shave items.

GBinOZ · Apr 6, 2014

So if Gillette were prepared to establish a factory in France to create the illusion that they were working the French Patent while the actual shave items were made elsewhere, did they do the same thing in Germany .....or even in Leicester?
At this link: http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/293610-What-Gillette/page2
mblakele speculates that the E to H prefixes may have been a labelling decision made by Montreal for their excess razors sent to England.

ItsAllGravy · Apr 6, 2014

GBinOZ said:
Thanks for your contribution.
Does the gillette logo on the cap and base plate have the gillette triangle AND the "Known the World Over" underneath? Is there a GinD on your razor?
Regards
George

Yes mine has the Gillette diamond with "known the world over" underneath it on both the cap and base plate. No GinD and i picked it up in the UK.

So it might not be a 1918?

Mine isn't cased, but came with two metal blade boxes, the style from 1908-1920's.

Steve

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Gillette Single Rings with British Patent Numbers

Ace McCool

mr-razor

Ace McCool

alex2363

GBinOZ

mr-razor

mblakele

GBinOZ

Ace McCool

mblakele

GBinOZ

GBinOZ

alex2363

alex2363

GBinOZ

GBinOZ

alex2363

alex2363

GBinOZ

ItsAllGravy

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