Arkansas shaving.

My understanding is that "true hard" is to distinguish it from the current "hard" classification (which Natural Whetstones also uses), the current "hard" being softer than the vintage (Norton) "hard" classification, which today might be called "translucent." The word from Dan's is that their "true hard" is a substitute for their "translucent," the price being lower since folks like to have their fetish translucents in a "pure" state.

Again, an interesting chart in this regard: http://danswhetstone.com/stone_grades_101.htm, wherein it shows that the past Federal "hard" classification stopped with what Dan's calls "true hard" and "translucent," and also matched Norton's old designation, whereas the current Federal classification for "hard" extends down into the "soft" range. So, by calling their stones "true hard" and "translucent," Dan's appears to be trying to distinguish what are in effect harder stones from the current, lax Federal designation, and keeping in line with the past or traditional designation. Also interesting is that both "soft/medium" and current "hard" Arkansas stones are considered Washita stones according to the Arkansas Geological Commission.

Gamma said:

True Hard just sounds stupid.
Should be Soft, Medium and Hard.

There is no 'False Hard'. Lol.

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The implied "false hard" would be the current "hard" designation extending into the nether regions, as imposed by current U.S. Federal Govt. gradations. Otherwise, what is meant by soft, medium, and hard relative to current U.S. Federal Govt. gradations, or the Arkansas Geological Commision's more conservative distinction between Washita and Arkansas stones as linked above? Dan's would seem to be doing their best to distinguish their stones as sold, given the limited and apparently defective Federal and State classifications at present. Beyond this, Dan's current descriptions would also seem to be more precise than soft, medium, and hard.

Ok i guess this is kind of off topic here but i am interesting in purchasing a hone for Chef's knifes and straights will the soft, hard, and surgical hard be a good progression of coarse/medium to fine to superfine and will this work for regular use i will be using the stones every 5 days or so since i am going to culinary school. and with the soft stone from ARK do you always have to use oil with it? I saw that you guys said with the hard to super hard you can use water? these are bargain hones i would love it if i would be able to use them!

Alum of Potash said:

The implied "false hard" would be the current "hard" designation extending into the nether regions, as imposed by current U.S. Federal Govt. gradations. Otherwise, what is meant by soft, medium, and hard relative to current U.S. Federal Govt. gradations, or the Arkansas Geological Commision's more conservative distinction between Washita and Arkansas stones as linked above? Dan's would seem to be doing their best to distinguish their stones as sold, given the limited and apparently defective Federal and State classifications at present. Beyond this, Dan's current descriptions would also seem to be more precise than soft, medium, and hard.

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From my perspective, following the class of hard with something called 'true hard' is ridiculous, laughable actually.
Numbers would be better, 1-2-3.
What do we call the hardest of the true hard? Seriously hard? Amazingly hard?
Maybe soft should be called almost hard and hard could be semi hard.

Personally - I'm not sold on Dans being a leader in the word of clarification. Their grit assignments are ridiculous and their claims are somewhat questionable.
I do think they're a solid seller, I just don't buy into their numbers.

Ill stick to evaluating each stone individually - seems to work best for me.

madmax20 said:

Ok i guess this is kind of off topic here but i am interesting in purchasing a hone for Chef's knifes and straights will the soft, hard, and surgical hard be a good progression of coarse/medium to fine to superfine and will this work for regular use i will be using the stones every 5 days or so since i am going to culinary school. and with the soft stone from ARK do you always have to use oil with it? I saw that you guys said with the hard to super hard you can use water? these are bargain hones i would love it if i would be able to use them!

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I am not a chef, but for cutting vegetables and meat, I don't think you would need to go so high as what we are talking about for shaving hair off the face. Usually, I use a medium or fine India followed by a soft Arkansas; and with a steel, I can keep things going for a while afterwards. Norton makes a medium India/soft Arkansas that would make a nice combo, and you could use their "food-safe" honing oil with it, if you like. Using water with a little dish-soap [edit: thanks Papafish!] certainly won't hurt anything to try, but the oil helps to keep swarf in suspension, to prevent it from bonding with the stone, which the water may be harder pressed to do. Never tried water with an India, though Norton says it's possible.

Somewhere, I read that all that was really needed was a 1k JIS water-stone for kitchen knives. Have you tried the King or Suehiro lines? They can be pretty economical. Maybe a King 800/4k combo or a Suehiro 1k/3k combo would get you what you need, these being very thirsty for water, as opposed to oil.

Gamma said:

From my perspective, following the class of hard with something called 'true hard' is ridiculous, laughable actually.
Numbers would be better, 1-2-3.
What do we call the hardest of the true hard? Seriously hard? Amazingly hard?
Maybe soft should be called almost hard and hard could be semi hard.

Personally - I'm not sold on Dans being a leader in the word of clarification. Their grit assignments are ridiculous and their claims are somewhat questionable.
I do think they're a solid seller, I just don't buy into their numbers.

Ill stick to evaluating each stone individually - seems to work best for me.

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Yes, I understand, you find "true hard" ridiculous. Okay, that's fine, I have pet peeve about "surgical blacks." The issue is with the descriptive terms employed, and yet classifications have their use all the same. In any case, let me consider a three-step sequence as you suggest: soft, medium, and hard (or 1, 2, and 3, etc.). The problem is that with the currently-produced Arkansas stones, a "medium" does not fit in so neatly. Rather than criticize Dan's grit ratings, I will use them in a relative sense, the numbers here being fairly arbitrary designations. To follow your soft, medium, and hard terminology, I will call a soft/medium Arkansas "soft," a hard Arkansas "medium," and a true hard, translucent, or black Arkansas "hard." Here, Dan's would assign a 600x-800x rating to a "soft," 800x-1000x to a "medium," and 1200x+ to a "hard." Again taking these numbers in the relative sense, an ideal three-step progression might be difficult to achieve in actual usage. For example, if I were to nominally call a "soft" Arkansas 700x, the "medium" Arkansas as sold might be very close to it, 800x, making the "medium" Arkansas more or less redundant. Moving from 700x-800x to 1200x is a bit of a jump, but doable, meaning that this is essentially a two-step progression, or "soft" to "hard," but no "medium." However, it's within the "hard" category that more subtle shades of difference are to be found. These being at the finishing-to-polishing level, and each stone varying there, as you say, it's difficult to label something "medium" there.

To return to Dan's terminology, a couple of years back, I tried an intended three-step progression: soft/medium > hard > black. Always, the soft/medium was active in setting the bevel, but in moving to the hard, things seemed flat and dead. Then moving to the black, things picked up once again. Wanting a two-step progression, I tried soft/medium to true hard/translucent and this seemed to bring me closer; and there was the possibility of roughing up one side of the true hard/translucent to bridge the gap as needed from the soft/medium. Moving to a kind of two and one-half step sequence from this, soft/medium > true hard/translucent > black, took things closest to the desired end-result; but moving from true hard/translucent to black is not what I would call a step in itself (especially as a two-step, soft/medium to black progression is theoretically doable), it's more like adding a cherry on top of a sundae.

But in the end, it does vary from stone to stone, as you say. Soft/mediums seem pretty consistent, with hard arks potentially varying a bit in the supposed middle stage (e.g., the preponderant white may be coarser than a dark grey in this range, the latter perhaps serving better as a bridge), followed by the finishing stones which have their own range. Maybe the simplest thing is to call them "soft" or "hard" based on whether or not they absorb oil.

madmax20 said:

Ok i guess this is kind of off topic here but i am interesting in purchasing a hone for Chef's knifes and straights will the soft, hard, and surgical hard be a good progression of coarse/medium to fine to superfine and will this work for regular use i will be using the stones every 5 days or so since i am going to culinary school. and with the soft stone from ARK do you always have to use oil with it? I saw that you guys said with the hard to super hard you can use water? these are bargain hones i would love it if i would be able to use them!

Click to expand...

Alum of Potash said:

I am not a chef, but for cutting vegetables and meat, I don't think you would need to go so high as what we are talking about for shaving hair off the face. Usually, I use a medium or fine India followed by a soft Arkansas; and with a steel, I can keep things going for a while afterwards. Norton makes a medium India/soft Arkansas that would make a nice combo, and you could use their "food-safe" honing oil with it, if you like. Using water with a little dish-soap certainly won't hurt anything to try, but the oil helps to keep swarf in suspension, to prevent it from bonding with the stone, which the water may be harder pressed to do. Never tried water with an India, though Norton says it's possible.

Somewhere, I read that all that was really needed was a 1k JIS water-stone for kitchen knives. Have you tried the King or Suehiro lines? They can be pretty economical. Maybe a King 800/4k combo or a Suehiro 1k/3k combo would get you what you need?

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MadMax: Are you saying you are going to use the stones for both knives AND straights? If so, you will want a very fine stone for the straights aspect. You will most likely want a Soft for the knives and for correcting problems on the straights, then a progression up to some very fine stones (translucent or similar). If not, stick with what Alum said, a Soft Ark will definitely get you cutting.

Alum: It is my understanding that Norton's food grade honing oil is just highly refined mineral oil. Refined to get the consistency they wanted. Some day I want to track some down and try it out.

I find 'true hard' ridiculous because it is ridiculous. At least terms like Surgical Black and Translucent mean something, the latter being more practical and the former being more marketing - they do actually mean something.

True hard - means what, harder than hard? Lol. Please.

Soft Medium and Hard would work fine if you don't over think it.

The only issue is this - they're natural stones and any stone in any class may be at a polar end of that class and then you can wind up with a soft and a medium that are basically too similar to fit into a set up.

That's why they need to be judged individually. It's also why people need to stop assigning 'gits' and whatever to them.

I had much Arkansas stones, but i sold them.

I kept just one tiny transark, 3*1,5 inch. This one is so fine, sometimes i use it with Ballistol as a razor finish.
I wanted a bigger one, and finally find a big arkansas bout (NOS) that is far away from being "broken inn".

So as i am not very familiar with arkansas stones, how fine do you lap it and how to break inn???

greets Sebastian.

Sebastian,

This has been covered here and there are a variety of opinions. My own is that you cannot get them too smooth. I take them up to at least 2k on the sandpaper and the only reason I stop there is because it gets expensive to throw grit at an arkie past that. After 2k I go to my kitchen knives to smooth it out.

Here are some links:

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/380357-SB-Arkie-lapping?highlight=arkansas

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/376590-Surgical-Black?highlight=arkansas

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showth...-used-Arkansas-translucent?highlight=arkansas

Let's not forget pictures. Love looking at the arkies.

Thank you oakeshott!

Here are the pics: This transark has not oiled yet.









greetings Sebastian.

OMG!!!

Sebastian,
That's a beauty. I've never seen an arkie that hasn't been cut into a rectangle. The closest I have is an ancient yellowed arkie in which the bottom was left as found rather than lapped. Yours is magnificent.

I'm wrecked with jealousy.
mark

oakeshott said:

OMG!!!

Sebastian,
That's a beauty. I've never seen an arkie that hasn't been cut into a rectangle. The closest I have is an ancient yellowed arkie in which the bottom was left as found rather than lapped. Yours is magnificent.

I'm wrecked with jealousy.
mark

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Wow..
Sebastien's hands look large in that picture but it is nothing like that rock.
Impressive stash you have been displaying most recently in various threads Sebastien.

Myron

Yes that is a nice one.

I love those odd shaped stones, much more than ordinary benchstones, as i am a handhoner.
The stone is quite big, i think little over 8*4 inches at its widest points.

Impressive stash you have been displaying most recently in various threads Sebastien.

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I got a "little" (my girlfriend thinks i`am completely insane) collection, ive testet tradet sell/sold about 200 stones in the last 10 years, now my collection is nearly finished. I am living in an area of bavaria/germany where much traditional craftsmen worked and so the fleamarkets are full of old carpentry/woodworking tools and stones too.

glad you like it.

greets Sebastian.

Very cool Ark - great shape.

Don't think for a minute that their are not a bunch of people honing on Arkies. I love the feel of my black arkie for a finisher especially and when I hone a razor I'm not interested in speed.
I never let oil touch any of my stones but always use water, dish soap or lather.
I guess you could say its what I cut my teeth on as I was raised as a boy 20 miles from where they once mined them and could still go to the mountains with a small sledge and come back with a lifetime suppy.
I used to have a humongous black ark I found in a river and hand ground it down myself, but someone loved it more than I and stole it a few years back from my hunting cabin.
I would not know a tomo from a namaguci but I can hone with an bunch of arkies till something will cut you in half. lol

P.s. if you buy a finisher from Dan get a black one they are better than his translucents. Hall's has some nice stones and has always had the same mine. The old vintage pike norton hard whites are sleepers also. But in reality color means absolutely nothing. I even have a purple one. I also have a solid black soft.

Ole Blue said:

Don't think for a minute that their are not a bunch of people honing on Arkies. I love the feel of my black arkie for a finisher especially and when I hone a razor I'm not interested in speed.
I never let oil touch any of my stones but always use water, dish soap or lather.

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Even on the soft stones? How do you do that?

I guess you could say its what I cut my teeth on as I was raised as a boy 20 miles from where they once mined them and could still go to the mountains with a small sledge and come back with a lifetime suppy.
I used to have a humongous black ark I found in a river and hand ground it down myself, but someone loved it more than I and stole it a few years back from my hunting cabin.

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Now that sounds fun! I would love to go out and find my own stones. I make it over to Arkansas once or twice a year to visit my wife's grandparents, but they are northern Arkansas, not near Hot Springs. We've talked about going jewel hunting. If we ever do, I will have to make a point to try hunting for some hones.

Yes I use soft arks for honing also (rough in work), I have a nice long old brown mottled Washita that is an awesome stone. I have a pink stone that is soft and thinks its hard. They all have a character so to speak.

If you ever get down there, you can draw a line from Glenwood/Hotsprings area through Hatton Arkansas to Broken Bow Oklahoma. Anywhere between there it is possible to find stones. The Ouachita National forest covers 1 1/2 million acres with huge areas and most of the rest is owned by timber companies that is open with thousands of backroads. Dan's mine is actually on National Forest land.
This outcrop of Novaculite must submerge around Atoka OK were you find poorer grade and must come back up at Marathon TX. If your ever in Marathon Tx, beautiful country named after Marathon, Greece which it does resemble, look to the North of the only highway and you will see the biggest piece of novaculite in the world that I know of. Its the entire mountain.
I got a kick out of the thread about guys talking about sandstone on the bottom of some rocks. They must be talking about the Jack Fork Sands. Its a layer down there of some hard gritty stuff that the oil drillers cuss around here. It grinds their bits to smithereens in mere feet when they hit it causing them to have to trip all the pipe back out of the wellhole to replace bits until they get thru it. Lets just say if you work on an oilrig and have to pull out and unscrew 7-8 thousand feet of 6-8 inch screwpipe joints and then put it back together it makes for a bad day a the office.

The Ouachita's are the only mountain range in the U.S. that runs east and west. Some say that the word Ouachita is an indian word that meant "sideways mountains"- don't know sounds French to me. They were formed under tremendous pressures which accounts for the quality of the rock there and also why they never find oil till further S-W. It was all smushed/burned out so to speak.

Thanks for the post Ole Blue. I find this kind of stuff very interesting. I live in Colorado on the front range of the rockys and am very interested in geology at the tourist level.

PapaFish said:

Now that sounds fun! I would love to go out and find my own stones. I make it over to Arkansas once or twice a year to visit my wife's grandparents, but they are northern Arkansas, not near Hot Springs. We've talked about going jewel hunting. If we ever do, I will have to make a point to try hunting for some hones.

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I agree. Beating around the hills in search of rocks that you can turn into first class hones sounds like a great way to enjoy nature to me.

bluesman 7 said:

I agree. Beating around the hills in search of rocks that you can turn into first class hones sounds like a great way to enjoy nature to me.

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This classic thread needs some love...
http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/254715-Making-a-hone
Anyone?