The lkon thread

bosseb said:

I am not referring to the banning here - I also made a decision to buy after the banning by the mods of B&B. I am certainly not accusing Greg Kahn of genocide either

What I'm referring to is the personal insult by Greg Kahn towards me and the razor system I had built from among other Ikon parts.

This insult was directed at me and made on Ikons Facebook page after I had discussed his lack of communication when other customers had issues with what they had bought. Some members here were wondering why he did not respond to their mails after they had bought razors and had questions and I responded that they might not get any answer from him. I had been in the same situation and had experience of the non-communication.

Everyone is free to buy and enjoy Ikon products. I will not.

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Oh, I gotcha. I didn't quite understand what was going on with that post from FB and your post about the razors. I gotcha. I see where you overheated the base plate, while polishing I'm assuming? Yeah, that FB post was pretty childish. Sorry you had to deal with that. That would turn me off of him too.

Gman9537 said:

I would only answer that there are much cheaper locales in the nation to maintain a warehouse. That doesn't speak one way or the other to the truth of what you're saying. Just noting a not-so-wise business decision. If indeed that's the case, Greg is paying a blooming premium to keep stock in the US, when Oklahoma or Kansas would be centrally located to all of the US and provide 1/10th, if not less, the overhead... Just saying...

Also, postage rates from southeast Asia are comparable to US rates, if not less. It just takes time to clear customs. That would be the advantage of keeping stock on US soil.

I asked the question, where the razors are made. I'll let you know when I hear his response.

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Oh and my wife ran an ebay business for a while, we let it fall through because of the ebay fees driving our prices up. But from that experience, I'll tell you from an NYC-based business, it would be much more cost-effective to drop ship to the manufacturer and never touch the product.

But I'm in the same boat. I have no idea at this point what really goes on with the product. These are just my observations.

Gman9537 said:

Have you tried anything in the Merkur lineup? I have the 34C and really like it. Its my most frequently used razor, but then I only have three to pick from. Wondering how the Weber stacks up against the Merkur head. I've heard both that they're similar and that they're very different depending on who's saying...

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I don't have a 34c, but I do have a 38c, which I hear shaves similarly to the 34c. I also have the Weber PH, and I find that the weber and merkur shave very similarly. I couldn't even say which one I prefer, I'd need to shave more with both. But I think if you like the 34c, then you'll like a stainless steel version of it in the Weber!

I find most Merkur razors shave extremely well, I just wish they were made with better quality materials and quality control.

sanch said:

Personal choices are that personal. I had absolutely no idea Greg was banned and for my part it's none of my business. Any issues had between him and anyone else are their issues not my own now my experience was better and I love the razors I own both the SC101 & the Deluxe Open Comb

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+1 Looking forward to putting mine through its paces!

Gman9537 said:

I would only answer that there are much cheaper locales in the nation to maintain a warehouse. That doesn't speak one way or the other to the truth of what you're saying. Just noting a not-so-wise business decision. If indeed that's the case, Greg is paying a blooming premium to keep stock in the US, when Oklahoma or Kansas would be centrally located to all of the US and provide 1/10th, if not less, the overhead... Just saying...

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Just a quick reply - I don't think iKon produces that many razors to need a warehouse. Its probably at a buddy's apartment or something. This is only direct sales; I would imagine that 95% of his sales are to vendors.

Gman9537 said:

Also, postage rates from southeast Asia are comparable to US rates, if not less. It just takes time to clear customs. That would be the advantage of keeping stock on US soil.

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Shipping time is another. As someone on the east coast of the US, the Shavecraft 101 head arrived to me in 3 days. It took several weeks for the 2nd generation bulldog to get to me.

Frankthetank said:

I don't have a 34c, but I do have a 38c, which I hear shaves similarly to the 34c. I also have the Weber PH, and I find that the weber and merkur shave very similarly. I couldn't even say which one I prefer, I'd need to shave more with both. But I think if you like the 34c, then you'll like a stainless steel version of it in the Weber!

I find most Merkur razors shave extremely well, I just wish they were made with better quality materials and quality control.

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Thanks Frank! I think I'm going to begin collecting the SS offerings over the next couple of years. The more I think about it, the more I want to at least try everything out there. I may love the iKon models, but really how can we know we have the best of the best until we try everything? Really... lol That's what I'm telling myself at least... I will definitely snatch up a Weber at some point along the way.

I think this research process has upstarted my RAD... I'm thinking of other non-SS razors I want to try too... uh-oh... The Symmetry razor from How To Grow A Mustache looks pretty sweet, for one. There are others... I'm trying not to think about it...

jpakstis said:

Just a quick reply - I don't think iKon produces that many razors to need a warehouse. Its probably at a buddy's apartment or something. This is only direct sales; I would imagine that 95% of his sales are to vendors.

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Yeah, I guess you're right about that. You can fit a lot of razors in a closet or a cabinet. I was thinking about the incredibly small size of apartments in NY, unless you're getting into the $1Ms+, but Ikea makes that kind of life work for people, I guess.

bosseb said:

The problems seem to come after the purchase: http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showth...t-DE-I-can-t-figure-out?p=5930178#post5930178 .

Greg Kahn is banned here for good reasons. His activities are no good for the members of B&B.

I also used to enjoy his work.

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Gman9537 said:

To this end, given our position in the community as a source of authority in all things wet shaving, I also feel it's only appropriate that a dedicated investigation take place when something goes awry between a member and a vendor. Most of what I've seen take place is a couple of pictures followed by accusations, grumblings, and un-solidified assumptions and assertions. That followed by bouts of chest-puffing and swearing off of the vendor. Investigations are part of my job in resolving conflicts between coworkers, and between business entities. It's easy to get swept up in a compelling complaint, but it behooves the authority in the matter to maintain impartiality and search out the facts before making an assessment. This is the only way to maintain integrity, honesty, and justice.

In this case, every thread I've read on the iniquity of iKon leaves me with more questions than answers. I'm not saying Greg is a saint, by any means, I'm compelled by what I've read to think otherwise. But to be objective and honest, I still have a lot of questions I'd have to see answered before I'd commit to that statement.

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I don't want to seem like I'm picking on anyone as I certainly am not. But at the risk of dragging this thread even further off course, there are some comments I feel compelled to make in line with your statement (which I whole-heartedly agree with):

I've followed the link provided and my question is - is it really "copyright infringement" if you post a picture to a public website? I mean, you don't have to be an active member here to cruise the threads, only to post to them. I lurked here for months before I joined. So if one knowingly posts something publicly, that everyone can view with no restrictions, is it really infringing on anyone's rights if someone simply re-posts it somewhere else?

In addition, that link also contains some other links, and on my way down the "rabbit hole", I happened upon another thread that referenced a radical action taken based on another company's customer service. This one made no sense to me, as I don't know how a piece of shaving equipment can ruin the karma of someone's house? Again, there was a radical gesture made, yet that company is still doing business and has a significant customer base. My point is - while I'm all for personal expression, is it right to become so one-sided with a boycott, or grievance toward another company, to the end of disrupting someone's enjoyment of a product? I understand that people have bad experiences with companies and vendors, but is it right for those people to try to trump those who have had only pleasant experiences with a company? This one in particular blew my mind.

Again, I'm sincerely not trying to pick on anyone, and I apologize if it seems that way. I'm just trying to wrap my head around some of the things I've been reading. We're all gentlemen here, and I'm trying to pose my questions in a gentlemanly way. If anyone feels that I'm not keeping up my end of that gentleman's code I will gladly edit or delete this post.

Boaz said:

Taken From the Ikon Facebook today 18.02.2014

it would appear there is someone from Ikon keeping an on people's picture, the first has the B&B signature and must belong copyright of someone here.

edit: I have just followed the link from a few posts up and can see they belong to Bosseb

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Behaviour like that towards bosseb is deplorable and incredibly childish. I don't understand how someone could treat a customer like that, completely unprovoked. First off, bosseb's customization is awesome. Second, even if the manufacturer didn't agree with that, to post a public and carefully thought out attack on a customer just shocks me. What is personally wrong with this individual to make him believe this type of behaviour is justified? Expensive stainless steel DE razors is a very small market, I don't understand how you can expect to survive as a business when you treat customers this way.

Frankthetank said:

Behaviour like that towards bosseb is deplorable and incredibly childish. I don't understand how someone could treat a customer like that, completely unprovoked. First off, bosseb's customization is awesome. Second, even if the manufacturer didn't agree with that, to post a public and carefully thought out attack on a customer just shocks me. What is personally wrong with this individual to make him believe this type of behaviour is justified? Expensive stainless steel DE razors is a very small market, I don't understand how you can expect to survive as a business when you treat customers this way.

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As I said before even in this thread Greg Kahn is just not a very nice person, he is rude, short tempered, and intolerant. I dont care if he made the best razors on the planet (he doesn't) and gave them away free I still would not use one. It make me appreciate people like Stan H at Above The Tie even more.

Frankthetank said:

Behaviour like that towards bosseb is deplorable and incredibly childish. I don't understand how someone could treat a customer like that, completely unprovoked. First off, bosseb's customization is awesome. Second, even if the manufacturer didn't agree with that, to post a public and carefully thought out attack on a customer just shocks me. What is personally wrong with this individual to make him believe this type of behaviour is justified? Expensive stainless steel DE razors is a very small market, I don't understand how you can expect to survive as a business when you treat customers this way.

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fl_guy said:

As I said before even in this thread Greg Kahn is just not a very nice person, he is rude, short tempered, and intolerant. I dont care if he made the best razors on the planet (he doesn't) and gave them away free I still would not use one. It make me appreciate people like Stan H at Above The Tie even more.

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I don't want to dwell on this incident more than it deserves but I do have to say two things:

First: I feel sorry for Greg Kahn. It cannot be nice to be mentally stuck on that schoolyard at age 11 and surrounded by bullies.

Second: The big loser in this matter is the shave community. Imagine if a person of Gregs capacity would be able to stay focused on producing new versions of the old classic razors for the benefit of the all shavers of the world!


As Dalai Lama would have put it: Our prime purpose in this life is to help others. And if you can't help them, at least don't hurt them.

PGHChris said:

I don't want to seem like I'm picking on anyone as I certainly am not. But at the risk of dragging this thread even further off course, there are some comments I feel compelled to make in line with your statement (which I whole-heartedly agree with):

I've followed the link provided and my question is - is it really "copyright infringement" if you post a picture to a public website? I mean, you don't have to be an active member here to cruise the threads, only to post to them. I lurked here for months before I joined. So if one knowingly posts something publicly, that everyone can view with no restrictions, is it really infringing on anyone's rights if someone simply re-posts it somewhere else?

In addition, that link also contains some other links, and on my way down the "rabbit hole", I happened upon another thread that referenced a radical action taken based on another company's customer service. This one made no sense to me, as I don't know how a piece of shaving equipment can ruin the karma of someone's house? Again, there was a radical gesture made, yet that company is still doing business and has a significant customer base. My point is - while I'm all for personal expression, is it right to become so one-sided with a boycott, or grievance toward another company, to the end of disrupting someone's enjoyment of a product? I understand that people have bad experiences with companies and vendors, but is it right for those people to try to trump those who have had only pleasant experiences with a company? This one in particular blew my mind.

Again, I'm sincerely not trying to pick on anyone, and I apologize if it seems that way. I'm just trying to wrap my head around some of the things I've been reading. We're all gentlemen here, and I'm trying to pose my questions in a gentlemanly way. If anyone feels that I'm not keeping up my end of that gentleman's code I will gladly edit or delete this post.

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I gotta say, for that one, the FB debacle, I'm with Bosse. I just went to iKon's FB page, and there it is for all to see. I don't know the history between B&B-at-large and Greg, or more specifically between Bosse and Greg, exactly. It seems like there has to be some provocation in the background, but nothing is impossible, so I'm not going there. That's between the two of them as far as I'm concerned.

But speaking business, ultimately, who cares what someone does with their razors once they're purchased?? Leave well enough alone. If Bosse were to (he didn't btw, but hypothetically) ruin his base plate, where does that leave him? That's right! In need of a replacement base plate. Greg should, if he were any sort of capitalist, encourage and support modification. "Go ahead boys, show me what you can do!" If nothing else, if someone does something fantastic with it that's universally appreciated it, put the mods into production. Learn from your customers.

But whatever. Water under the bridge, right?

PGHChris said:

But at the risk of dragging this thread even further off course

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I think at this point the thread is all but wrapped up. Feel free to venture wherever the wind takes you lol All I have left to do is post my experience and impressions for the record and this one is done

Gman9537 said:

But whatever. Water under the bridge, right?

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+1

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showth...t-DE-I-can-t-figure-out?p=6066454#post6066454

Gman9537 said:

But speaking business, ultimately, who cares what someone does with their razors once they're purchased?? Leave well enough alone. If Bosse were to (he didn't btw, but hypothetically) ruin his base plate, where does that leave him? That's right! In need of a replacement base plate. Greg should, if he were any sort of capitalist, encourage and support modification. "Go ahead boys, show me what you can do!" If nothing else, if someone does something fantastic with it that's universally appreciated it, put the mods into production. Learn from your customers.

But whatever. Water under the bridge, right?

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+1000 on that. Just for clarity, I agree that the FB post was childish; I'd be miffed if it were me. There were some other members stating that posting the picture was copyright infringement. That's all I was getting at. As for the rest, I was basically stating my views of "live and let live". Again, I meant no offense to anyone.

Back on track - I do look forward to your impressions of your new razor. I'm curious to see if you enjoy it as much as I do.

bosseb said:

Imagine if a person of Gregs capacity would be able to stay focused on producing new versions of the old classic razors for the benefit of the all shavers of the world!


As Dalai Lama would have put it: Our prime purpose in this life is to help others. And if you can't help them, at least don't hurt them.

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Well said.

Thanks gents. I'll keep you updated.

I think Greg is lacking serious communication skills and that is why he comes into less good light than what he maybe deserves. If that is true I can find a good reason for his strange behavior with the razor of Bosse.

1. He recognizes the razor to be an iKon.
2. He thinks the modification is uggly
3. He is afraid other will also recognize it as iKon, or read iKon (in the logo) on any picture Bosse might upload.
4. He decides to tell everybody that he did not make the razor to look like that so nobody will assume iKon is making uggly (in his eyes) razors.

He is simply afraid of getting bad reputation as a manufacturer and tries to solve the situation by telling that was not his product. Instead he does it in a such clumsy way that he is getting bad reputation for his comment.

engblom said:

I think Greg is lacking serious communication skills and that is why he comes into less good light than what he maybe deserves. If that is true I can find a good reason for his strange behavior with the razor of Bosse.

1. He recognizes the razor to be an iKon.
2. He thinks the modification is uggly
3. He is afraid other will also recognize it as iKon, or read iKon (in the logo) on any picture Bosse might upload.
4. He decides to tell everybody that he did not make the razor to look like that so nobody will assume iKon is making uggly (in his eyes) razors.

He is simply afraid of getting bad reputation as a manufacturer and tries to solve the situation by telling that was not his product. Instead he does it in a such clumsy way that he is getting bad reputation for his comment.

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I agree with your assessment, I like to give people the benefit of the doubt, or better yet, just not assume motive when possible. Suffice to say, there are more tactful ways to set your product apart from the "aftermarket".

I am still getting great shaves with my Deluxe OC plate. This razor shaves as closely to my beloved English Goodwill as anything I've picked up so far. I can't even get back to the OCC plate, which was a really nice shave also.

Jeff_H said:

I am still getting great shaves with my Deluxe OC plate. This razor shaves as closely to my beloved English Goodwill as anything I've picked up so far. I can't even get back to the OCC plate, which was a really nice shave also.

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My experience as well. The iKon Deluxe OC is my favorite shaver, edging out my runner-up, the English Gillette NEW. Based on the superb NEW design, the Deluxe OC is a shaving masterpiece.

Regards,