Newbie honer with questions!

I happen to be home alone which is a rare treat nowadays and I figured it is now or not in a while if I want to take my first staggering steps into honing. As a first candidate I took the Heljestrand with the barbers notch that I got in the unusual shave box. It is very similar in shape and weight compared to my Törnblom. It had a few dents in it so I honed those out on a DMT 600 until they were gone, I then flipped the DMT over and perfected the bevel on the 1200 side until it shaved a few arm hairs when pulling it across the skin. I then went over to the BBW on which I generated a slightly milky slurry and did 100 laps to the best of my ability. By now when doing the TPT it cut the outer layers of my skin effortlessly. I then thinned the slurry out and did a further 50 laps before stropping the blade 50 laps on wet stone with no slurry. I then stropped twice as long as usual and shaved. I did not use any duct tape on my the spine because I could not find any at the time and I have heard that it is not strictly necessary.

Now I really understand why it is so important not to get into honing before having learnt to shave with a razor honed by a pro, I could immediately feel that although it was cutting hair, it lacked the keenness that my other razors and especially the similar Törnblom have which felt strange considering the TPT test was so successful. I am thinking that I might have left the DMT 1200 a little early since at that point it did not shave arm hair clean off.

On the whole though, I am very satisfied with this first experiment, the razor nonetheless gave me a DFS. I am tremendously excited at the possibilities of this new hobby.

QUESTIONS:
1. When you test for the razors ability to shave arm hair, should it shave them clean off leaving patches of bare skin or is it enough if it has the ability to shave arm hair?

2. For my next experiment I was thinking of the Bengall in the top of the second picture. This razor has a distinct frown which I was thinking of taking out with a DMT 325 or 600. Are these problems particularly challenging for a beginner or is it just as straightforward as the dents I honed away on the Heljestrand? Is there anything in particular I should be thinking of when doing the strokes to hone out the frown?
If you consider that I should leave the frown for now, the Flic razor in the bottom of the second picture should be pretty straightforward.

3. Should I have used duct tape nonetheless or is the lack of keenness more probably a skimped bevel setting problem?

Thank you in advance for your answers.

Interesting read Gustav. I am afraid I cannot answer your questions since I am just beginning honing myself, but I will follow this thread closely.

And - congratulations to getting started on honing!!

Gustav said:

QUESTIONS:
1. When you test for the razors ability to shave arm hair, should it shave them clean off leaving patches of bare skin or is it enough if it has the ability to shave arm hair?

2. For my next experiment I was thinking of the Bengall in the top of the second picture. This razor has a distinct frown which I was thinking of taking out with a DMT 325 or 600. Are these problems particularly challenging for a beginner or is it just as straightforward as the dents I honed away on the Heljestrand? Is there anything in particular I should be thinking of when doing the strokes to hone out the frown?
If you consider that I should leave the frown for now, the Flic razor in the bottom of the second picture should be pretty straightforward.

3. Should I have used duct tape nonetheless or is the lack of keenness more probably a skimped bevel setting problem?

Thank you in advance for your answers.

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1) Yes - it should shave arm hair as effortlessly as you'd want it to shave your face. Some folks just let the razor ride over/above the skin to see what cuts. For me, a very light 'shaving touch' on the arm gives a quiet, or a 'Tink, Tink, Tink' kind of feel or sound as the hairs bite the dust.
2) Frown is a tough one. I'd get your method down on other, easier razors.
3) Other factors equal, duct take isn't going to make or break your edge. You should be able to do just fine without it. Maybe try dropping back to a coarser grit to improve the edge - whether you need to go all the way back to bevel set is hard to say.

GL.

Thank you for your help, I took your advice and left the frowning Bengall aside in order to give the Flic razor a go. I have been trying to set a bevel on it for ages using a selection of DMTs without success. The bevel I was getting was uneven and seemed to end on one side of the blade and continue on the other. At first I thought it might have to do with the shoulder interfering with my efforts but after doing several strokes paying particular attention to keeping the shoulder away from the DMT I suddenly realized upon closer inspection that the blade as viewed from the side appears to be concave. Thus, I will never be able to put an even bevel on the razor.

QUESTION:Am I right in assuming that there is unfortunately nothing that can be done about this razor?

My advice for you is to stick with the Heljestrand and work on it until its shaves completely meet your expectations. If you're just going to give every razor a given treatment and accept the result for what they are, you'll miss the opportunity to learn from improving those results.

Since you took out some dents and arrived at shaving arm hair abilities, it is fair to say that the bevel was ready. Sure, you might have neglected to squeeze some additional sharpness out of the DMT, but that actually doesn't matter. The important part is that the you establish flat bevel faces that meet each other at a reasonably keen "V", and that you accomplish that on a hone with enough abrasion to remove the steel required to arrive at that point. All that matters, is that your next hone is capable of taking over. In your case, it's a BBW and it is certainly capable of taking over an edge that can already shave some arm hairs, after the DMT1200.
It is my guess that you didn't refine the edge as much as you could have on the BBW. If you restricted yourself to performing only very light X-strokes, the number of laps you did on the BBW are on the low side. BBWs are rather slowish, certainly when used without significant pressure. I recommend to do all laps on the BBW with some pressure, except the last 50 laps. With "some pressure" I mean the kind of pressure you would put on an eraser for removing pencil of a sheet of paper.
There are several ways to get high keenness off a BBW. It depends a bit on the particular stone. Many BBWs work well with a paste-like slurry. Not so dry that it becomes grainy, but just above that point. A small drop of water every now and then suffices to keep the paste-like consistency constant. I'd give it another 100 laps. Then wash the stone, but not the razor, and give it another 50 on water, still applying eraser-like pressure. Finally rinse everything, rub the BBW once with the slurry stone, and finish with 50 light X-strokes.

As an alternative, there is a shortcut. It requirs electrical insulation tape (I 'm not a native English speaker, but I thought "duct tape" was something else. Anyway, you need the kind of tape they use to insulate electrical wires) The thickness of the tape should be 0.15mm (no idea what it is in Imperial). If thinner, use 2 layers, otherwise one. Whith the tape attached to the spine, and the razor in condition as you described it, the 50 light X-strokes, that I mentioned for finishing in the previous paragraph, will suffice to make for a clear improvement of the sharpness. The tape speeds up the process, because it makes the bevel tip on its very edge.

Finally, be very cautious not to accidentally lift the spine while honing. As little as one slip-up can undo a lot of good work while honing.

Best regards,
Bart.

Gustav said:

Thank you for your help, I took your advice and left the frowning Bengall aside in order to give the Flic razor a go. I have been trying to set a bevel on it for ages using a selection of DMTs without success. The bevel I was getting was uneven and seemed to end on one side of the blade and continue on the other. At first I thought it might have to do with the shoulder interfering with my efforts but after doing several strokes paying particular attention to keeping the shoulder away from the DMT I suddenly realized upon closer inspection that the blade as viewed from the side appears to be concave. Thus, I will never be able to put an even bevel on the razor.

QUESTION:Am I right in assuming that there is unfortunately nothing that can be done about this razor?

Click to expand...

Concave as in warped to one side? Try using the BBW slurry stone in that picture for honing it instead of the larger BBW.

Also, earlier in this thread, when you said duct tape, did you mean electrical tape?

danjared said:

Concave as in warped to one side? Try using the BBW slurry stone in that picture for honing it instead of the larger BBW.

Also, earlier in this thread, when you said duct tape, did you mean electrical tape?

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Yes, electrical tape was what I meant. What I mean by concave is that if you look at the entire blade edge head on, the top portion is bent to the left such that when you put the edge on the hone, right side down, said portion does not contact the hone. It is only very slight, I did not notice it at first.

Thanks for the tip about the smaller stone, I actually have another smaller BBW which I will try. However, how do you go about it, do you hone the top part separately or do roll the edge on the hone?

Gustav said:

Yes, electrical tape was what I meant. What I mean by concave is that if you look at the entire blade edge head on, the top portion is bent to the left such that when you put the edge on the hone, right side down, said portion does not contact the hone. It is only very slight, I did not notice it at first.

Thanks for the tip about the smaller stone, I actually have another smaller BBW which I will try. However, how do you go about it, do you hone the top part separately or do roll the edge on the hone?

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With a narrower stone, you have a better chance of contacting the entire edge. You'd use an x-stroke and concentrate on specific parts of the edge if they are trailing behind in keenness.

Also, Bart has some very good points. I'd recommend that you undertake the Heljestrand again until you've gotten it to where you want it. Trying to hone a warped razor while still trying to get honing down can be extra challenging.

Bart said:

My advice for you is to stick with the Heljestrand and work on it until its shaves completely meet your expectations. If you're just going to give every razor a given treatment and accept the result for what they are, you'll miss the opportunity to learn from improving those results.

Since you took out some dents and arrived at shaving arm hair abilities, it is fair to say that the bevel was ready. Sure, you might have neglected to squeeze some additional sharpness out of the DMT, but that actually doesn't matter. The important part is that the you establish flat bevel faces that meet each other at a reasonably keen "V", and that you accomplish that on a hone with enough abrasion to remove the steel required to arrive at that point. All that matters, is that your next hone is capable of taking over. In your case, it's a BBW and it is certainly capable of taking over an edge that can already shave some arm hairs, after the DMT1200.
It is my guess that you didn't refine the edge as much as you could have on the BBW. If you restricted yourself to performing only very light X-strokes, the number of laps you did on the BBW are on the low side. BBWs are rather slowish, certainly when used without significant pressure. I recommend to do all laps on the BBW with some pressure, except the last 50 laps. With "some pressure" I mean the kind of pressure you would put on an eraser for removing pencil of a sheet of paper.
There are several ways to get high keenness off a BBW. It depends a bit on the particular stone. Many BBWs work well with a paste-like slurry. Not so dry that it becomes grainy, but just above that point. A small drop of water every now and then suffices to keep the paste-like consistency constant. I'd give it another 100 laps. Then wash the stone, but not the razor, and give it another 50 on water, still applying eraser-like pressure. Finally rinse everything, rub the BBW once with the slurry stone, and finish with 50 light X-strokes.

As an alternative, there is a shortcut. It requirs electrical insulation tape (I 'm not a native English speaker, but I thought "duct tape" was something else. Anyway, you need the kind of tape they use to insulate electrical wires) The thickness of the tape should be 0.15mm (no idea what it is in Imperial). If thinner, use 2 layers, otherwise one. Whith the tape attached to the spine, and the razor in condition as you described it, the 50 light X-strokes, that I mentioned for finishing in the previous paragraph, will suffice to make for a clear improvement of the sharpness. The tape speeds up the process, because it makes the bevel tip on its very edge.

Finally, be very cautious not to accidentally lift the spine while honing. As little as one slip-up can undo a lot of good work while honing.

Best regards,
Bart.

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Thank you so much for this very detailed answer, I am very grateful to you and I am sad that I did not see it earlier because then I could have spent the time on the Heljestrand instead of wasting some time on the Flic. Yesterday, honing felt straightforward, now it feels invigoratingly challenging. I look forward to making further efforts and I shall keep you posted on the results.

Further questions spring to mind after some further work on yet another razor. I am still kicking myself for missing Bart's post earlier but this evening I will take out the First Heljestrand I somewhat successfully honed and go at it with a smaller BBW and some thicker slurry. It stands to reason that perfecting one razor is better than erratic honing on several of them.

Questions:
1. When reading Joel's interactive guide to straight shaving on the subject of honing and specifically bevel setting, he does 5 laps on a Norton 4K and then he is done. In my attempts, I have made close or more than a hundred on DMT 600 and 1200 before I was satisfied it shaved hair. Is it common that you only have to do a very limited number of laps to set the bevel? Can I do lasting damage to the razor by over-honing?

2. Ideally I suppose that the lines that define the bevel (cutting edge and the adjacent line on the blade where the bevel "starts") should be parallel. But on my honing practice razors the upper line seems a bit curved especially toward the middle of the blade. Is this something I should worry about and if so how do I correct it? Could it be that I am applying pressure?
Comment: I am holding the razor at either end of the blade so it is strange that there should be more hone wear in the middle.

Gustav said:

I am still kicking myself for missing Bart's post earlier

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Please don't feel bad on my account. Even if you would have willingly chosen to ignore my post, I wouldn't have taken offense. We all post on this forum because we have something to share, not because the other members are obliged to read it.

Gustav said:

Questions:
1. When reading Joel's interactive guide to straight shaving on the subject of honing and specifically bevel setting, he does 5 laps on a Norton 4K and then he is done. In my attempts, I have made close or more than a hundred on DMT 600 and 1200 before I was satisfied it shaved hair. Is it common that you only have to do a very limited number of laps to set the bevel? Can I do lasting damage to the razor by over-honing?

Click to expand...

4 laps on a Norton4K sounds to me as if Joel was only refreshing an otherwise still excellent bevel. Once a razor has been honed properly and the edge is maintained with touch-ups on a flat hone, the bevel will stay flat. But many shavers do touch-ups on a pasted strop, which slowly introduces a convex shape to the bevel. It may take many touch-ups, or not so many, depending on the type of paste and the strop it is on, but eventually the arc becomes so pronounced that a bevel reset becomes inevitable. The "belly" of the arc contains a fair deal of steel, and that will take much longer than 4 laps on a Norton 4K.
In addition, old razors that have been abandoned for years, lying around in a drawer, having served for various other tasks than shaving, can be so dull that they demand a lot of initial bevel work.

"Overhoning" is a very ambiguous term. Sometimes it almost seems as if any unexplained honing problem triggers some guy to yell "Overhoning!" I wouldn't worry about it.
But is you are wondering whether you might be removing more steel than strictly needed, the answer is: possibly, but the final edge you produce does not know.
Strictly spoken, a blade does not have to loose any of its width to become sharp. Not even a micron. Envision an upright triangle with a trimmed, somewhat rounded tip. That represents your dull edge. Envision how you can construct a keen triangle inside the dull triangle. This keen triangle does not have to be any lower than the dull one. It only needs to be slimmer.
Or in other words, if a razor looses a visible amount of blade width during a honing job, you are definitely removing more steel than required. Few realize it, but a razor looses width during use and pasted touch-ups, not during sharpening. Sharpening just removes material from the sides, that needs to go to re-expose a sharp bevel tip.

Gustav said:

2. Ideally I suppose that the lines that define the bevel (cutting edge and the adjacent line on the blade where the bevel "starts") should be parallel. But on my honing practice razors the upper line seems a bit curved especially toward the middle of the blade. Is this something I should worry about and if so how do I correct it? Could it be that I am applying pressure?
Comment: I am holding the razor at either end of the blade so it is strange that there should be more hone wear in the middle.

Click to expand...

If the bevel becomes wider at the middle of the razor, you must check if this is happening on both sides.
If one side is wider and the other narrower, that is evidence of warp. Nothing to worry about. The very edge doesn't know what's going on further down the blade.
If both sides of the bevel are widening at the middle, you are either slowly loosing a smiling curve, or slowly introducing a frown. If the razor has a smiling edge, it is important to match that curve in your honing stroke. The most used solution for that is the "rolling" X-stroke. But it is also possible to split the blade into 3 parts in your mind, and more or less deal with each part independently: the heel part, the middle part and the tip part. As long as you keep an open eye, there is nothing wrong with doing localized work on a razor.

As to your question about pressure, well I hope you are applying some pressure. I believe the adage to use as little pressure as possible is only meaningful during the final 30 strokes or so. And even then, I'm not sure. But of course you mustn't lean on the razor while honing. But an even and gentle pressure will certainly serve your cause. I have been thinking about a good indicator and have adapted something that kitchen chefs use to bake a steak. Push the index finger of your dominant hand into the ball of the thumb (the flesh part on the palm) on your other hand. Now, increase pressure to the point where more pressure no longer increases the impression. Back off just a little bit. That's the kind of pressure I put on a razor while honing, almost till the very end. The finishing is done with maybe half of that, and the final 20 or 30 laps with as little as possible.

Kind regards,
Bart.

Lots of great info. From one noob honer to another, my downfall starting was applying too much pressure, and not employing an x-stroke. Many of my eBay razors aren't perfectly flat, so I attempted to either flatten it on the stones by adding more pressure, or trying to grind out the unevenness on a DMT. Needless to say I ruined a few really nice blades, including a nice smiling tapered wedge. Its hard to explain, but an x-stroke on a narrow hone, or concentrating on half of the wider stone will catch the edge on many warped and smiling blades easily. It takes practice but the rewards are worth it.

Thank you gentlemen for all the effort you have put in your answers, they are a source of tremendous inspiration and encouragement. Now it is off to the hones and then hopefully an improved shave. I can't wait!

You have gotten great advice in this thread. You asked about a razor with a frown. I would view this as a challenge, as a frowning razor is a bad thing in all circumstances that I am aware of. Use whatever methods are needed to remove this frown.

Warped razors, as others have said, are common. Try to hone them to a decent edge without insisting on a perfectly straight and symmetrical blade. Kentos mentioned the rolling X stroke. That is well worth learning. Even new blades are seldom exactly flat and straight.

DavyRay said:

You have gotten great advice in this thread. You asked about a razor with a frown. I would view this as a challenge, as a frowning razor is a bad thing in all circumstances that I am aware of. Use whatever methods are needed to remove this frown.

Warped razors, as others have said, are common. Try to hone them to a decent edge without insisting on a perfectly straight and symmetrical blade. Kentos mentioned the rolling X stroke. That is well worth learning. Even new blades are seldom exactly flat and straight.

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All the input on warped razors is very interesting and gives food for thought and further experimentation.

I have just finished shaving with the barber notch Heljestrand which I honed according to Bart's instructions and the result was about the same or possibly even a bit worse . After two passes I did a TI paste touchup on a paddle and some further stropping. That helped quite a lot and I could subsequently finish the shave to an acceptable degree of quality albeit with some irritation. On the bright side, I can definitely see that the smaller hone is easier to use with regards to doing the X strokes however it is also more of a challenge to keep the razor from sliding off the hone. I think I may have damaged the edge somewhat whilst slipping off the edge now and then.

Not to worry, this is only a temporary setback. Next time I will keep better track of my blade on the hone and I will also pay more attention to add a drop of water now and then to the slurry. Today I only did so every 20 strokes and I think that was too little.

For my next two or three shaves I will give my face time to heal from this onslaught of amateurishly honed steel and use my professionally honed razors just to reset my impressions on what it should feel like. Stay tuned, I will be back in due course and I shall look forward to further support and encouragement.

Erik,

It will be only a matter of time till you find your honing form.

I would like to remark, should it not have been clear my previous post, that the method with paste-like slurry does not work on every BBW. Some BBW's are better treated as if they are Coticules, with slurry dilution and all that jazz. Something you're going to have to figure out.
Which brings me to a final word of advice. it would really be helpful if you had some kind of test to tell whether the razor is worth a test shave to begin with. Your face will be grateful for it. I know there are experienced razor sharpeners who consider the HTT merely a "parlor trick", for for me, it is a cornerstone of my honing. On the Belgian stones, it is fair to say that if you stay at it till your razor can pop a hanging hair at about half an inch of the point where it's held (the hair needs to be very clean, and of sufficient thickness), then the shave will almost without doubt be very good.

Good luck to you and don't forget to enjoy the whole leaning process,
Bart.

Bart said:

Erik,

It will be only a matter of time till you find your honing form.

I would like to remark, should it not have been clear my previous post, that the method with paste-like slurry does not work on every BBW. Some BBW's are better treated as if they are Coticules, with slurry dilution and all that jazz. Something you're going to have to figure out.
Which brings me to a final word of advice. it would really be helpful if you had some kind of test to tell whether the razor is worth a test shave to begin with. Your face will be grateful for it. I know there are experienced razor sharpeners who consider the HTT merely a "parlor trick", for for me, it is a cornerstone of my honing. On the Belgian stones, it is fair to say that if you stay at it till your razor can pop a hanging hair at about half an inch of the point where it's held (the hair needs to be very clean, and of sufficient thickness), then the shave will almost without doubt be very good.

Good luck to you and don't forget to enjoy the whole leaning process,
Bart.

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Thank you Bart or should I say "dank u wel". I will keep at it and I will use the HHT to probe the blade. That should allow me to hone even if I do not shave with the razor directly afterwards, it is funny how I did not think of this before. I am convinced that since I learned successfully to shave with a straight which in all honesty took about a year before I could consistently get shaves of better quality than with a DE, I am also capable of learning how to hone a razor.

Gustav said:

Thank you Bart or should I say "dank u wel". I will keep at it and I will use the HHT to probe the blade. That should allow me to hone even if I do not shave with the razor directly afterwards, it is funny how I did not think of this before. I am convinced that since I learned successfully to shave with a straight which in all honesty took about a year before I could consistently get shaves of better quality than with a DE, I am also capable of learning how to hone a razor.

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Bart's advise is as always spot on.
It really is a good idea to develop a feel for what an edge feels like during various stages.
I don't personally rely on HHT myself, maybe because my head is clean shaven...but I do rely on the TPT & how the edge behaved cutting the tips of my armhair.
Eventually you will feel as this on the hones & you will get fewer & fewer bald spots on your arms..
But it really helps starting out to have a good, personal, reliable way of testing where the edge is at.

If you in any way feel it would be easier to talk about those things in your native tounge, don't hesitate to PM me.

Keep at it & you will get there, no doubt!

Honing is one of those things. Even when you have been doing it for a while you will still come across razors that will have you pulling your hair out. Stick with it, it does get easier.

I use the HHT and find it quite useful. My hair is quite short, so I talked SWMBO into giving me a lock of hers one night just after she washed it. It's good because all the hairs are exactly the same, were just washed, are the same length, age, etc. It is a much more accurate test if you can standardise like this, rather than hunting around on the bathroom floor or her brush every time you need a hair.

Also, when I think I am getting close to the edge I want, I fluff up my leg hairs a bit and run the blade up my shin about 5mm off the skin. I can now tell by the way the blade pings the hair how close I am. And it doesnt leave bald patches on my legs that way.

I have never honed a razor which I thought shaved well and had it not pass the HHT.

Thanks guys - this is turning into a great honing tutorial for us beginners!