Newbie honer with questions!

[Gustav]

Just be aware that the HHT doesn't mean much in itself unless you calibrate it to something. By that I mean finding a particular hair that you find "pops" at the same level of edge quality as when the razor shaves at the level you expect. Using a different hair (arm hair v body hair v facial hair v brush hair etc), or the same hair with oil and/or grime on it will give a different indication. You could very easily find that a given razor shaves beautifully but just will not pop a particular hair, or v/v a razor pops a hanging hair but shaves like a rasp.

Thanks for the comment, I should perhaps have pointed out that I just use it as a crude indication to see if the edge has improved from the DMT stage when typically it does not pass the HHT. You are also quite right that I also own a couple of pro honed razors that shave most smoothly but do not pass the HHT.

 

[MickRussell]

I've honed a ton of knives before which would pop hairs like nobody's business, but there's no way on Earth I'd try to shave with them. On the other hand I can shave, with reasonable comfort, off a blade that's never seen anything finer than 2000 grit.

My definition of "reasonable comfort" will probably change in the near future, however, as I'm improving my honing tools substantially and hope to be dismayed at my own ineptitude.

 

[Gustav]

Yesterday I had my first shave as the father of two beautiful daughters (not twins, but father once more)! This time it was the warped Flic razor which I had honed with my interpretation of an x-rolling stroke applied to a non smiling razor (see previous posts). I did the usual prep, lathered up with L'occitane Cade SS and then positioned the razor for that first make or break stroke and then pulled the razor downwards: result, pure bliss! The razor cleaved stubble effortlessly.

Encouraged by this success I honed the Bengall from my first post. This razor had a very pronounced frown but I had at it with my DMT 325 making straight strokes at 45 degrees intermixed with heel first and then toe first until the blade as judged from the light passing under the edge on a BBW slurry stone, was virtually flat or showed perhaps even a smile. I then tested its ability to shave arm/leg hair: it failed. After that I thought that i would switch to the DMT 600 and seeing as this is a big chunk of a razor, I decided to keep going until it would shave arm/leg hair effortlessly. I did the regular X-strokes. Sure enough, it took some time but the toe end started to perform on a scale I had never experienced whilst trying to set the bevel before. I then refined the heel doing the same type of strokes restricted to that part of the blade until it would shave arm/leg hair satisfactorily and then I went on to the DMT1200 for a short stint. Finally I did the BBW routine and ended up with a blade which passed the HHT with ease. I did the same on a Heljestrand frameback which, although it had a rough edge, took a nice bevel in no time whatsoever on a DMT 600/1200.

I will keep you posted on the shaves these two razors gave but I would be very surprised if the did not live up to expectations. If I am right, this weekend has been a break-through for me, finally the "how long is a piece of string" expression "do X-strokes on coarse stone until it shaves arm/leg hair" finally has a meaning I can relate to and quantify by experience. I have also found a variant of the rolling x-stroke that works for me.

I have already said it but I will say it again: thank you all for contributing to this thread, it has been most helpful and interesting. It has permitted me to have a first stab at honing and to understand its principles. I still have a lot to learn but now I can approach the matter with a whole lot more confidence.

As mentioned earlier, as of next week our living quarters will be shared not only by the more or less routinely visits on our soon to be two-year old but also by that of our now two-day old. Thus, my honing volume will dwindle but I will still chime in from time to time to report on recent progress or if so be disaster and ask for your helpful comments.

 

[Bart]

Congratulations Erik, on both accounts (fatherhood and razor sharpening).

Well done,
Bart.

 

[Kentos]

Babies are such a blessing! Congratulations on both fronts!

 

[Gustav]

I attempted to shave with the Hellberg frameback yesterday. If passed the HHT but when shaving it felt very rough although it removed a lot of stubble. I honed this razor before I got a more advanced feeling about the quality of bevel required to get a decent edge and on the previous attempt it felt slightly more dull. After that attempt I did 100 laps on TI paste on a leather paddle but obviously that did not help. Could it be that the bevel was just off being ready for the next phase or could it be that parts of the bevel was all right whilst the other part were not?

 

[Gustav]

I had a small window of opportunity and did some honing recently on the Hellberg frameback, a beautiful Dahlgren smiling razor with a chip in the blade (which I will test shave this evening) and a "Borlänge Maskinaffär" Bengall. This last one is challenging because the shoulder is making it very difficult to hone a 2 cm blade section next to it because the shoulder protrudes to such an extent that it lifts this section of the blade off the hone.

QUESTION: How do I solve this problem? Do I do straight strokes with the blade at all times perpendicular to the side of the hone or should I try doing X-strokes from point-to-shoulder instead of the shoulder-to-point which I usually do?

 

[Gustav]

Right guys, I am now well and truly stuck! I have now test shaved the above three razors and I am beginning to see a pattern in the results I get from the razors on which I had both set the bevel and refined the edge: they are shave ready, able to pass the HHT and able to remove stubble to DFS quality but invariably give me a shave that is sub-par in the comfort department. I use DMTs to get rid of damage (220/325 as needed) and for bevel setting, usually 600 then 1200. I always make sure that the razors can shave leg hair easily on the DMT600 before moving on to the 1200 on which I stay for approximately the same amount of strokes as on the 600. After that I move to the BBW using slurry dilutions according to Bart's instruction in an earlier post on this thread. When I use the BBW procedure repeatedly, the edge becomes smoother but only very gradually. On pro-honed razors I have found that the BBW procedure allows me to maintain the edged very nicely and when I get hold of a vintage undamaged razor, where 10-20 strokes on the DMT1200 is enough to polish the bevel to leg hair shave quality, the BBW puts a nice finishing touch on the edge making them comfortable shavers.

QUESTIONS:
1. Is the rough edge due to the fact that the BBW is just too slow and fine to remove the DMT1200 scratches effectively? Would adding even more pressure to the strokes help?
2. Is the gap between the DMT1200 and the BBW with a thick slurry just too wide?
3. I will get hold of a coticule later next year, would that stone bridge the gap or should I get myself a Naniwa Superstone 3000/8000 combo or something similar?
4. Is it meaningful to try and smoothen the rough edges by stropping on paste and if so do I need a paste progression or will the regular Thiers Issard aluminium oxide paste do the job?

Thanks in advance for your help!

 

[Bart]

Eric,

After the 1200, drag the edge with nothing but its own weight over a beer bottle. Right now, I believe you have been shaving with BBW-smoothed DMT-sharpness. (meaning that the DMT-E leaves the edge sharp enough for shaving, but not smooth enough). By removing the DMT-sharpness with the beer bottle trick, you will be obliged by getting the keenness back with the BBW.

It is also possible that you have remnant roughness of the coarser DMTs at your edges. For some odd reason, the first edge I put on a razor after restoring it and re-beveling with coarse hones, is often not top notch. But after a second honing, it always pans out. I can only attribute it to the coarse hones maybe leaving stresses in the steel that shouldn't be there, because I check under a stereo scope to see if I removed all the marks left by the DMT 325 and 600, before I jump on the Coticule. (I stopped using the 1200 long ago, as a Coticule is capable of handling a 600 grit bevel quite well, but with a BBW, it depends on its slowness, so you can best include the 1200).
Anyway, if they were mine, I would pre-dull on glass and rehone on the BBW.

And than there is the UniBlue option.

Good Luck,
Bart.

 

[Gustav]

Eric,

After the 1200, drag the edge with nothing but its own weight over a beer bottle. Right now, I believe you have been shaving with BBW-smoothed DMT-sharpness. (meaning that the DMT-E leaves the edge sharp enough for shaving, but not smooth enough). By removing the DMT-sharpness with the beer bottle trick, you will be obliged by getting the keenness back with the BBW.

It is also possible that you have remnant roughness of the coarser DMTs at your edges. For some odd reason, the first edge I put on a razor after restoring it and re-beveling with coarse hones, is often not top notch. But after a second honing, it always pans out. I can only attribute it to the coarse hones maybe leaving stresses in the steel that shouldn't be there, because I check under a stereo scope to see if I removed all the marks left by the DMT 325 and 600, before I jump on the Coticule. (I stopped using the 1200 long ago, as a Coticule is capable of handling a 600 grit bevel quite well, but with a BBW, it depends on its slowness, so you can best include the 1200).
Anyway, if they were mine, I would pre-dull on glass and rehone on the BBW.

And than there is the UniBlue option.

Good Luck,
Bart.

Thanks for the tips, this gives me the opportunity to try out the beer bottle trick before laying my hand on the coticule next summer or forking out money on more stuff. "I believe you have been shaving with BBW-smoothed DMT-sharpness": this makes a lot of sense to me and since I have asked Santa for a USB-microscope I might be able to check it in the near furture.

 

[Gustav]

I have been testing the effect of the above mentioned Beer bottle trick (see Bart Torf's post earlier) on the end result i.e. how smooth the edge feels when I test shave and it seems to make a huge difference. To my joy I have also noticed that using a CrOx on Balsa device that Legion gave me, improves on this edge even further. Thus far I have only tested these two things on the C.W.Dahlgren in the top part of the picture but next week, the Borlänge Maskinaffär is up and so I hope that the usefulness of the beer bottle trick will be confirmed. You might notice that the Dahlgren razor has a rather pronounced bevel on the middle part of the blade. This is due to a chip which used to be there but that I removed with my DMT 325.

 

[Gustav]

Warning: if you believe that the BBW is a crap hone not worthy of your attention do not read the following!

I just felt I wanted to close this thread once and for all because for various reasons I have decided to put off honing with the BBW for the time being and try a cuticle in the later part of this year. Just let me summarize what I have learnt:

1. The BBW is a very useful hone to revive an edge that has become somewhat dull, to its original keenness or better.

2. You can hone a razor, the bevel of which you have set on for example a DMT, to a shave ready keenness provided you avail yourself of the above mentioned beer bootle trick. If you do not do this, you run the risk of simply polishing the jagged DMT edge resulting in rather uncomfortable shaves.

3. The BBW is a slow stone, so it is necessary to apply pressure when doing your strokes. For the procedure recommended by Bart Torfs please see previous posts. Also, you might have to repeat said procedure several times before attaining satisfactory keenness.

4. I have not tried any other hones as of yet but to my limited experience it seems that if your bevel is not correctly set, the BBW will not be able to correct it to such an extent that you can a shave ready edge as a result. I actually find this to be an advantage for a beginner like myself because it forces you to learn to do a good job on the bevel.

On the whole, I am very satisfied with what I have learnt thus far, since I know I now have the means to maintain my edges. I am looking forward to trying the coticule and hones to how the compare with the BBW.