I,personally, would love to run a small retail shop stocked with men's products. I like that I'm able to get samples from many places (and PIF's are wonderful) but I'd love to be able to smell something, feel the weight of a razor in my hand, before actually buying it. If the overhead weren't so great, I'd quit my job today and open my shop. The internet is great, but there's something to be said for going to a store and buying something.
Traditional wet shaving market penetration? Boom? Status Quo? Game Over?
- Thread starter grim
- Start date
So wet shaving makes it when it establishes stores that never existed for carts?
Shave gear is isle seven in the drugstore and isle 15 in the grocer, you don't get to smell the canned goo.
The people I know, not a forum, that wet shave with DE razors have one handle, one soap/cream, one brush, and use whatever blades they find at the corner store if they run out of their online bought box before another comes in.
They don't go hunting down a smell, or shave type, they just need a sharp blade and some lather to shave for work, and that's most people, so yes I think some stores having some product is about what we are going to get, because most men could care less about what their shaving cream smells like.
It's growth though, I've watched my low end grocery chain (DeCA) move from VdH soap only, to including a DE razor and DE blades.
Shave gear is isle seven in the drugstore and isle 15 in the grocer, you don't get to smell the canned goo.
The people I know, not a forum, that wet shave with DE razors have one handle, one soap/cream, one brush, and use whatever blades they find at the corner store if they run out of their online bought box before another comes in.
They don't go hunting down a smell, or shave type, they just need a sharp blade and some lather to shave for work, and that's most people, so yes I think some stores having some product is about what we are going to get, because most men could care less about what their shaving cream smells like.
It's growth though, I've watched my low end grocery chain (DeCA) move from VdH soap only, to including a DE razor and DE blades.
I suppose one could argue that for using travel size tubes as toothpaste samples, but your point is well taken.But you and I and everyone here are making some kind of commitment. We are NOT mainstream. We are way off the edge in a niche. Maybe I should have put it this way.
When you are vested into doing something, you will go out of your way to accept things you might not readily do in the rest of your life. That's why people call it a "hobby". You will go out of your way. Are you so willing to do that the next time you buy toothpaste and a toothbrush? I've ordered samples. But to be frank - seriously - its a PAIN. I'm guessing at things. Some I hate. Some I like. Some is money out the window. But I'm willing to do it because I have an interest.
If you told me to try different toothpaste samples, I'd laugh. And that is exactly what the mainstream is probably doing with me.. Look at that guy getting packages delivered every other day. UPS is living at his houseBig Brown should just park there. ROFL. My mailman knows when I'm getting stuff. They just think - Oh him - he's ordering more shaving stuff. Duh!
I just wanted to thank you for the most amusing analogy of the morning. Now, I can't help but smile at the thought of some parallel universe where people have toothbrush rotations, argue the merits of classic versus reformulated dentifrices, and hang out on eBay trying to score an NOS Pepsodent brush from 1957.
From the Forum Etiquette Guide, "You can disagree with another person without being disrespectful or rude online."
Re; your comment, "However, I must say that neither I nor anyone else has the slightest idea what sort of market penetration will result", my guess is you're an attorney in Texas and not the chief marketing officer at Gillette. A lot of money is invested by businesses based on market research and forecasts.
While I agree that a brick and mortar store specializing in wet shaving products would be a challenging business model, it might be more plausible for a related retailer (similar demographics for customers) to add such product (Sport Shave, Men's Spas, Cigar Lounges, Executive Clothing retailers). As a related retailer, one could carry samples and fill orders through a distributor internet site. For the e-tailers, perhaps Christmas season kiosks. The value add there would be the opportunity to learn more about a product before purchase. This site is full of product for sale after buyer remorse.
Such dialogue is the purpose of this site. To label opinions as "absurd" is counterproductive to open discussion.
Re; your comment, "However, I must say that neither I nor anyone else has the slightest idea what sort of market penetration will result", my guess is you're an attorney in Texas and not the chief marketing officer at Gillette. A lot of money is invested by businesses based on market research and forecasts.
While I agree that a brick and mortar store specializing in wet shaving products would be a challenging business model, it might be more plausible for a related retailer (similar demographics for customers) to add such product (Sport Shave, Men's Spas, Cigar Lounges, Executive Clothing retailers). As a related retailer, one could carry samples and fill orders through a distributor internet site. For the e-tailers, perhaps Christmas season kiosks. The value add there would be the opportunity to learn more about a product before purchase. This site is full of product for sale after buyer remorse.
Such dialogue is the purpose of this site. To label opinions as "absurd" is counterproductive to open discussion.
I totally get it. Not your age, but maybe your position. My dad passed away when I was 21, and I didn't discover lathering with soap-in-a-mug and brush until I was 25. But when I did, you can bet I suddenly remembered my dad using his Brooks Brothers shaving set when I was a kid! It's comforting to know that I am doing at least this one thing in a similar way that he did. It's a way to maintain a feeling of connection.
I think something similar will happen with DE shaving supplies, because it's not just beer like you mention that this has happened with. Think other products-- some of them staples-- like bread and coffee-- 20 years ago, in a mainstream supermarket in my area (DC-Baltimore metro) that meant Folgers/Taster's Choice and a selection of Wonder/Pepperidge farm loaves. For anything else, you'd have to go to an ethnic/specialty/gourmet food store. Now, there's a decent selection available in every supermarket I've been to in the area. Same thing with deli items like prosciutto di parma and fresh mozzarella.
The selection may never be as dizzying as that of a specialty store, but a trip into the city is no longer required to pick up certain provisions. In 10 years' time, maybe DE shaving gear will experience something similar.
Have you checked out Tschiffely Pharmacy? At their now-closed Connecticut Ave. location is where I picked up my first non-Williams soap, and I remember them having an assortment of soaps, bowls, brushes, and such, but this was back in '03. They have two locations in the district.
Interesting other thread about Sally Beauty Supply. From what I saw on their web site, you'd think it's impossible to get over 50 miles from a store.
http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/471279-First-visit-to-Sally-Beauty-Supply
http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/471279-First-visit-to-Sally-Beauty-Supply
Great poll, but I do have some higher level thinking for you.
i do think that Wet shaving will steadily climb. Not over 10% though. But with the emergence of Art of Shaving. And how the locations are more main stream, being located now in major malls, and even now at Macy's, it will attract more interest. But also their price tag will scare people away. For a full sized AoS shave cream it is $25 for 5 oz ($5 per oz) it will scare people away. Also a Merkur 34 C HD is $65 at AoS, compared to $35 on Amazon. I also think that if there were some artisan soap makers that are local to you that they could offer possibly tours, and such. I don't think that is something that places offer.
i do think that Wet shaving will steadily climb. Not over 10% though. But with the emergence of Art of Shaving. And how the locations are more main stream, being located now in major malls, and even now at Macy's, it will attract more interest. But also their price tag will scare people away. For a full sized AoS shave cream it is $25 for 5 oz ($5 per oz) it will scare people away. Also a Merkur 34 C HD is $65 at AoS, compared to $35 on Amazon. I also think that if there were some artisan soap makers that are local to you that they could offer possibly tours, and such. I don't think that is something that places offer.
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- #50
Thank you for voting. It looks like the consensus is status quo or an slight uptick but unclear. Interesting because sometime I hear things like "this is the top of the iceberg and its going to explode". However, that might be because they want to sell me something.
I did not voice my opinion but after reading all the responses my opinion is "status quo". There will be no explosion, no mainstream entry into the market. Older retired Baby Boomers might embrace it, but in the longer term new technology always replaces the old. Otherwise we would all be using horses to get to work instead of cars and cooking on open fires rather than a stove. Once the older generation dies off, it will fall into a tiny niche, like audiophiles buying vinyl and high end turntables for their hobby. That takes nothing away from it but rather is an opinion.
I also happened to be in a Wegmans today and they had a VDH safety razor on the top shelf, in the corner, after a long row of cartridges. Also a Williams soap and VDH brush on the bottom shelf. These two items were buried in a sea of disposables and cartridges. There were no DE blades.
Buying bread, beer, cheese, Italian cold cuts, etc. are all common things the entire population will do and eat. Except for the beer, all ages eat bread and a cold cut sandwich. I am in the same area as you and I know I can spend $8 for a tiny loaf of Artisan bread and find 100 different beers at a bar. But you need to consider two things.
1. These are staples, as you mentioned, not a niche product. Everyone uses staples
2. The DC metro surrounding counties are 5 of the 6 richest (highest median income) in the nation. Spending $8 for a small loaf of bread is nothing for many people there. So if a shop was introduced, it might be supported simply based upon income levels.
AOS, as far as I have read, is targeted to the low end luxury market. During the holiday season, when I went by it, it was pretty empty. OTH, a Macys, Lord & Taylor, Nordstroms, even Sephora, was pretty mobbed. You could go into this stores and sniff about any normal consumer fragrance with their testers and make a decision (e.g., Dolce & Gabanna, Armani, Tom Ford, Versace, etc. ). But there is no corresponding place to smell shaving aftershaves and colognes such as Truefitt & Hill, GFT, Penhaligons, etc. However, to give AOS credit, I think they had 2 or 3, a very limited number, of Penahligons, albeit at full retail. I have no idea who they intend to sell them at full retail. This corresponds to your note that AOS hardware prices are too expensive. The public isn't blind to the fact online prices can be much cheaper. Except for those that want the instant gratification of taking home the product, if the brick and mortar prices are not within reason, the consumer will walk.
I did not voice my opinion but after reading all the responses my opinion is "status quo". There will be no explosion, no mainstream entry into the market. Older retired Baby Boomers might embrace it, but in the longer term new technology always replaces the old. Otherwise we would all be using horses to get to work instead of cars and cooking on open fires rather than a stove. Once the older generation dies off, it will fall into a tiny niche, like audiophiles buying vinyl and high end turntables for their hobby. That takes nothing away from it but rather is an opinion.
I also happened to be in a Wegmans today and they had a VDH safety razor on the top shelf, in the corner, after a long row of cartridges. Also a Williams soap and VDH brush on the bottom shelf. These two items were buried in a sea of disposables and cartridges. There were no DE blades.
Buying bread, beer, cheese, Italian cold cuts, etc. are all common things the entire population will do and eat. Except for the beer, all ages eat bread and a cold cut sandwich. I am in the same area as you and I know I can spend $8 for a tiny loaf of Artisan bread and find 100 different beers at a bar. But you need to consider two things.
1. These are staples, as you mentioned, not a niche product. Everyone uses staples
2. The DC metro surrounding counties are 5 of the 6 richest (highest median income) in the nation. Spending $8 for a small loaf of bread is nothing for many people there. So if a shop was introduced, it might be supported simply based upon income levels.
AOS, as far as I have read, is targeted to the low end luxury market. During the holiday season, when I went by it, it was pretty empty. OTH, a Macys, Lord & Taylor, Nordstroms, even Sephora, was pretty mobbed. You could go into this stores and sniff about any normal consumer fragrance with their testers and make a decision (e.g., Dolce & Gabanna, Armani, Tom Ford, Versace, etc. ). But there is no corresponding place to smell shaving aftershaves and colognes such as Truefitt & Hill, GFT, Penhaligons, etc. However, to give AOS credit, I think they had 2 or 3, a very limited number, of Penahligons, albeit at full retail. I have no idea who they intend to sell them at full retail. This corresponds to your note that AOS hardware prices are too expensive. The public isn't blind to the fact online prices can be much cheaper. Except for those that want the instant gratification of taking home the product, if the brick and mortar prices are not within reason, the consumer will walk.
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One huge problem is most people probably aren't aware traditional shaving is still out there. I wasn't. Most people I have talked to didn't know anyone used straights anymore. Most don't know what a de razor is. I am in my early thirties. For most to know the option is even available there would have to be a selection in b&m stores,but even as enthusiasts most of us don't buy in the stores. If they aren't selling traditional supplies, they won't keep them. The only things I've bought in local stores was a cheap razor from Sally's,a boar brush,c o bigelow, and some Williams. This was when I started. Everything since has been online.
Interesting poll! Would love to see this repeated in 5 years!
Here comes a doozy of a first comment. 
I've been lurking for a while, and have just signed up for an account recently, but planned on lurking for a while more. However, this thread somehow has spurred me to make a comment. As a bit of background, I'm 27, and I switched to wet shaving 1.5 years ago.
1) The future growth/lack of growth of traditional wet shaving has almost zero to do with brick and mortar stores. Everything I've ever bought for wet shaving came from Amazon. I've only been in an Art of Shaving once, and I was a bit surprised and disappointed at the lack of DE and straight razor selection. It seemed to be dominated by exorbitantly expensive silvertip brushes and lavish handles for the latest Fusion cart. I've never tried to shop for blades in a supermarket because I can get Feathers at $22/100ct on the Internet, and the box shows up in a week.
Point being that the future of wet shaving is going to be determined by the reaction of people 30 and younger, who largely do their shopping and decision making online.
2) It's hard to tell at this point whether the "retro hipster" thing is simply a fad, or whether there is a deeper rejection of the "disposable" culture that permeated the 70s-2000s. If there is going to be a large-scale migration back to traditional wet shaving, it will be under the pretext of reducing waste.
3) Any return of traditional wet shaving will have to fight against the "needs to work out of the box" mentality. People are so very used to having everything be a 10 minute learning curve, and developing a shaving technique over months and years flies right in the face of that. Heck, just yesterday (1.5 years in) I realized that my definition of "no pressure" was too much pressure, and I could get a better shave by backing off even more.
4) Finally, I just don't think the awareness is there to create any major market penetration. I think this stays as a niche "hobby" that may get into the low single digits in market penetration. Perhaps 2-3% at the max.
I've been lurking for a while, and have just signed up for an account recently, but planned on lurking for a while more. However, this thread somehow has spurred me to make a comment. As a bit of background, I'm 27, and I switched to wet shaving 1.5 years ago.1) The future growth/lack of growth of traditional wet shaving has almost zero to do with brick and mortar stores. Everything I've ever bought for wet shaving came from Amazon. I've only been in an Art of Shaving once, and I was a bit surprised and disappointed at the lack of DE and straight razor selection. It seemed to be dominated by exorbitantly expensive silvertip brushes and lavish handles for the latest Fusion cart. I've never tried to shop for blades in a supermarket because I can get Feathers at $22/100ct on the Internet, and the box shows up in a week.
Point being that the future of wet shaving is going to be determined by the reaction of people 30 and younger, who largely do their shopping and decision making online.
2) It's hard to tell at this point whether the "retro hipster" thing is simply a fad, or whether there is a deeper rejection of the "disposable" culture that permeated the 70s-2000s. If there is going to be a large-scale migration back to traditional wet shaving, it will be under the pretext of reducing waste.
3) Any return of traditional wet shaving will have to fight against the "needs to work out of the box" mentality. People are so very used to having everything be a 10 minute learning curve, and developing a shaving technique over months and years flies right in the face of that. Heck, just yesterday (1.5 years in) I realized that my definition of "no pressure" was too much pressure, and I could get a better shave by backing off even more.
4) Finally, I just don't think the awareness is there to create any major market penetration. I think this stays as a niche "hobby" that may get into the low single digits in market penetration. Perhaps 2-3% at the max.
On point 1- we are also talking about a staple here-- shaving supplies. DE is simply the high-end/niche segment of the market for this particular staple.
Based on what I've seen happen with previous high-end/niche varieties of staples, I simply predict something similar will happen with DE shaving equipment-- knowledge and popularity will grow, and middle-of-the-road and economy lines of these products will become available in a decent variety in outlets where people shop every day, but for luxury brands or products sought after by purists, the specialty stores or internet will be necessary.
On point 2- You are right. The market could support one if not several stores like what you have in mind. It's a bit of a mystery to me too why we don't have any. After all, we have places like Fahrney's for luxury pens. But sheer amount of disposable income isn't the only variable that makes a market viable for a particular type of product. During the years I lived and worked in DC, I observed a professional culture that is very hierarchical, about appearing influential, and sartorially conservative. This creates a market for products with a pedigree like Mont Blanc pens and Brooks Brothers casual wear because they are visible markers that people use to communicate something about themselves and to size each other up. Shaving gear, OTH, is invisible to everyone except the owner and people who happen to enter his master bathroom. My theory is that we don't have a real shaving store in DC in part because shaving gear isn't an easy way to project status to one's colleagues. Of course things change and I could be totally off.
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- Thread starter
- #55
By staple I meant it includes all humans, all ages. I wrote "the entire population will do and eat. Except for the beer, all ages eat bread and a cold cut sandwich."
All 300,000,000 American will eat, both sexes, every age. This market is focused, immediately writing off half the population. From that subtract those to young to shave. From that subtract those who have beards. From that subtract the entrenched population who dry shave and will never switch.
That leaves a much smaller fraction of the population. It's far different to include the entire set of humans living in America, than the small subset of Males of age who do not dry shave. That is what I meant by staple.
The demographics could easily support a store of the nature of Superior Shave, Old Town Shoppes, or the like. I have no idea why not. Maybe your theory is correct. Maybe nobody cares. Maybe market penetration just isn't there. I don't know why.
- Thread starter
- #56
Here comes a doozy of a first comment.
1) The future growth/lack of growth of traditional wet shaving has almost zero to do with brick and mortar stores. Everything I've ever bought for wet shaving came from Amazon. I've only been in an Art of Shaving once, and I was a bit surprised and disappointed at the lack of DE and straight razor selection. It seemed to be dominated by exorbitantly expensive silvertip brushes and lavish handles for the latest Fusion cart. I've never tried to shop for blades in a supermarket because I can get Feathers at $22/100ct on the Internet, and the box shows up in a week.
Point being that the future of wet shaving is going to be determined by the reaction of people 30 and younger, who largely do their shopping and decision making online.
2) It's hard to tell at this point whether the "retro hipster" thing is simply a fad, or whether there is a deeper rejection of the "disposable" culture that permeated the 70s-2000s. If there is going to be a large-scale migration back to traditional wet shaving, it will be under the pretext of reducing waste.
3) Any return of traditional wet shaving will have to fight against the "needs to work out of the box" mentality. People are so very used to having everything be a 10 minute learning curve, and developing a shaving technique over months and years flies right in the face of that. Heck, just yesterday (1.5 years in) I realized that my definition of "no pressure" was too much pressure, and I could get a better shave by backing off even more.
4) Finally, I just don't think the awareness is there to create any major market penetration. I think this stays as a niche "hobby" that may get into the low single digits in market penetration. Perhaps 2-3% at the max.
All very good comments and I'm glad it caused you to think.
I get the online buying thing. I'm not a total luddite.
The instant gratification things is a problem. TIME IS MONEY. People have busy lives. They got People to See, Places to Go, and Things to Do. While I see a lot the "zen" time or "my" time, the fact is if your late for an appointment, most of that goes out of the window. Sleep a bit late, and you got to get out of the house.
Time is everything and statements like "you make time" don't cut it when you were asleep. It works fine if you got no place to go. It doesn't work fine when your late.
If market penetration is 2 - 3%, what does that say when it was once 100%? I'd like to see 10%, as that would have a future.
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- #57
I can't edit posts so I might add, part of the lack of market penetration might be related to what is socially acceptable and what is not.
If you look at fashion, it seems that the 3 day stubble is "in" as a fashion statement. That has to be hurting sales among those who are slaves to fashion. This was not true through the 1950s - 1990s. Even in the days when goatees, mustaches, and some beards were normal, office environments still tended to demand that the skin not covered by a small beard or mustache was clean shaven. Three days of stubble came across as just disheveled to some and not acceptable.
I see a lot of obsession here with BBS or DFS or other buzz acronyms. In fact "socially acceptable" is good enough. And you can get Socially acceptable with an electric razor or just about anything - maybe even clamshells.
The point being, fashion might be a factor too.
If you look at fashion, it seems that the 3 day stubble is "in" as a fashion statement. That has to be hurting sales among those who are slaves to fashion. This was not true through the 1950s - 1990s. Even in the days when goatees, mustaches, and some beards were normal, office environments still tended to demand that the skin not covered by a small beard or mustache was clean shaven. Three days of stubble came across as just disheveled to some and not acceptable.
I see a lot of obsession here with BBS or DFS or other buzz acronyms. In fact "socially acceptable" is good enough. And you can get Socially acceptable with an electric razor or just about anything - maybe even clamshells.
The point being, fashion might be a factor too.
You keep saying market penetration and discounting hugest swathes of the population who don't shave... Yet ignore the rows of Gillette Fusions, Schick and gels, goo and goop that every single supermarket and pharmacy has in abundance.
Shaving supplies are a staple. Gillette would not be advertising during a SuperBowl if it were otherwise.
Shaving supplies are a staple. Gillette would not be advertising during a SuperBowl if it were otherwise.
It is in the nature of people not to notice things we are not thinking about. I probably walked past Pasteur Pharmacy and the AoS counter at Macy's dozens of times in the last 10 years and yet if I had been asked about shaving equipment before I got into DE last year I would not have been able to cite these places. Normal, Il has several Sally Beauty stores nearby. And Washington, DC has numerous Grooming Lounge, AoS, Sally Beauty options. If we don't typically think about stores we may think they are not around. And unless a search is very specific, they might not be found. "Seek and ye shall find."
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- #60
In the original post, I specifically said "the traditional wet shaving market (DE, SE, and straights) is around 0.6% within the US." The discussion is "traditional wet shaving" meant to mean shaving with a straight edge, double edge safety razor, or single edge safety razor, but not a disposable or cartridge system. Those items are not part of this discussion.
Continually denigrating canned shaving cream calling it names such as "goo and goop",as I frequently see here, won't change the fact the market for it surely is vastly more than traditional shaving soaps and creams used with brush. One study claims ~69% of the market is gels, ~26% foams from a can, ~4.5 % creams. Assuming you lump gels and foams together, thats a market dominating 95%. Soap numbers were insignificant.
Hmm, how does that track with only a 0.6% market penetration? Perhaps its because wet shavers own 50 shaving creams/soaps vs the normal average American Male is lucky to have on can of gel/foam in the bathroom
For market share to go mainstream, these numbers need to be reversed.
