The MMA Thread

[brucered]

You're right. Shogun looked worn out and BJ was ridiculously overmatched. Rua needs to hang it up before he's punchy and, unless BJ can find the motivation to fight at lightweight, he should probably join him.

agreed. like they said, BJ looked like a punching bag in round 2, it was embarrassing to watch him in that state. Rory looked good, but he absolutely nothing when he had him on the ground or against the cage, he just laid on him.

Shogun was out of shape, looked exhausted and i hope he doesn't become an Andrei Arlovski and fighting in high school gyms and parking lots. retire, become an analyst, trainer or coach. he has a lot to offer and i hope he makes the right choice.

 

[Harry Snider]

Long term BJ Penn fan, and think that last night's fight should be an indication of how the face of MMA is changing. Rory is improving every fight and he's a beast! I don't like seeing fights where you like both fighters.
BJ has fought much bigger guys than RM, but, that was years ago. I think guys like RM are few and far between; talent-wise. Match his skills and desire with training with GSP and you have and up and coming juggernaut!
I also am not a fan of matching 'hall of famers' fights, just sad to see a legend fading. BJ Penn in his best days was one the most polarizing MMA fighters for me anyway! Tenacious and fierce! Combing wicked jiu-jitsu with world class boxing skills. I don't think he's done, or maybe I just can't accept it yet...

 

[lowcountry_sc]

"think that last night's fight should be an indication of how the face of MMA is changing."
"I think guys like RM are few and far between; talent-wise. Match his skills and desire with training with GSP and you have and up and coming juggernaut!"

exactly. I remember how mad I was at Matt Hughes when he talked about how he would destroy Gracie b/c the game had changed, and then proceeded to do exactly that. It HAD changed, and is changing still.

 

[lpe492]

Rory is the real deal but I agree that his bedside manner could be improved. I feel the same about Bones. And glad to see Bendo dominate Diaz.

What do folks think about Sotiropoulos fighting on Dec 14th? He's been off for nearly a year and a half. I still recall the buzz after his winning streak two years ago.

 

[lowcountry_sc]

Dunno why, but Bones just doesn't irritate me as much as he does everyone else.

 

[The Nid Hog]

I agree with you guys that the game is changing. On the other hand, I'm not sure that's the reason that guys like BJ or Shogun lost. In both their cases, they are guys that won't/can't live up to their actual potential. I suspect a BJ Penn who consistently cut to lightweight and remained the top fighter at AKA would be a different guy than the BJ who got pounded on Saturday. He probably would never have even booked that fight with Rory. Would he still be the LW champion? Who knows? Hard to say what a consistent BJ with no fights with Hughes, GSP or Machida would look like. And that's both good and bad. We wouldn't have had the wildly competitive, crazy BJ either.

Same with Shogun. Sure, the guy could probably do without the cheeseburgers in training, but he's had some terrible injuries. Maybe if he took the time to put together the kind of training and game plans that kept Randy Couture in the game, he would have done better. But he's a fundamentally different kind of guy. A young Randy never shredded his opponents like Shogun in Pride.

To my way of thinking, there are two different things happening here. The basic level of versatility and conditioning is changing for pro fighters. It's probably the Royce Gracies of the world who are in trouble. In fact, the transformation that Demian Maia went through is a perfect example of this. But I think we'll always have wildly talented guys like BJ that don't live up to what we think is their potential because all of the things that go into making them great in their terms will keep them from succeeding in ours. I guess I tend to like those guys when they come around--hope they don't get pushed aside. They probably won't because they are so intensely interesting when they're on.

 

[lowcountry_sc]

Nid Hog (would love to be able to address you by your given name, but...)

Good job articulating some deeper concepts than "B.J. is a washed up bum", etc.

The Royce Gracies of this world have been in trouble for some time now; Matt Hughes proved that. Heck, even Hughes wouldn't be able to accomplish what he did in today's game. All else being equal, I would still make the assertion that BJJ is the most important skill that a martial artist can learn. Most people have no idea how much jitsu is involved in fight; it's not just submissions, it's position and sweeps and control. Yet the days of one dimensional fighters are all but gone. At the higher levels, they ALL KNOW at least the basics of jitsu. Someone brings new skills to the table, comes along and does new things, and MMA reacts by absorbing and assimilating it in rapid fashion, just like they did BJJ.

One of my buddies that rolls with us fights on the local circuit. Despite my jits being better than his (which isn't saying a whole lot) his standup is a lot better than mine. And he knows enough Jiu-Jitsu to at least be defensive and I would be in trouble if I had to really fight him. Because the slight advantage I have on the ground doesn't compare to the large advantage he has in the stand up. I'd put him as a 3-1 favorite easy if we ever fought. Except for one thing: he doesn't train the way I would. I've thought about competing in a MMA bout despite my age, and the one thing that has kept me from doing it is time. Because I know how much lack of natural talent can be overcome through sheer determination and persistence. If I'm going to get into a locked cage with someone trying to kill me, I'm going to be in the best shape of my life. I'm going to train twice a day. That's why someone like Bispring (although I can't stand him) does so well (except vs. the upper echelon guys)..That's why Rory Macdonald looked so insanely good; he trains like (and with) GSP, in addition to having some blessed genes.

What I'm getting at is those guys who don't train like their life depended on it used to get by on freak athletic ability. And then there were the guys who were great athletes (but not phenoms) who trained like the dickens; former Div 1 wrestlers come to mind. But now there's guys who also have freakish athletic ability (Jon Jones, Macdonald, Silva etc.) who are also animals in the gym...

One last point: there's a saying in chess that there are no old world champions. Certainly, there are exceptions (like Couture in MMA), but the rule is that chess is a (relatively speaking) young mans game. I think Napoleon said once that war was for young men, for men over thirty no longer had their heart in it. I thought about that when I watched BJ fight; he's still a warrior and I remain a fan, yet it was like he didn't want to be in there anymore. Another friend of mine retired from the MMA scene some time ago, despite having some promise. If you ask him why, he's pretty blunt about it: "I got tired of being hit in the face."

 

[TheShow]

Anybody else notice that the older guys seem to do better in the heavier weight classes, and the young guys rule the lower weight classes. Exceptions being the super elite like Jones in LHW and GSP in WW. Is it a speed thing? It seems that if you're 30, it seems you don't have a chance to be a top contender unless you're at least a middleweight.

 

[Big_Tex]

As long as we are talking about faded legends...I am both stoked and nervous for the Wanderlei/Stann fight. I keep praying that Wandy will get one last vicious KO win and then retire. But it hasn't happened. And every time he fights it makes me sadder and sadder. He was and is my favorite fighter of all time. If there was anyone more terrifying and dominant in his prime than Pride-era Wanderlei Silva, I don't know who that is. But when he started declining after joining the UFC, man it absolutely killed me.

All that said, I will continue to watch and support The Axe Murderer every time he fights.

WAR WANDERLEIIIIII SIIIIIIIIIILVA!

 

[The Nid Hog]

I think that the UFC should have a special series of fights where faded legends get fed a can--even better if it's an especially annoying hack fighter--and let them knock them out then retire. It would be like a ritual. The could go straight from the cage to the UFC Hall of Fame.

Unfortunately, everybody sticks around for that final run at the title that never materializes and they end up getting hammered. I think that Stann has his limitations as a fighter, but I suspect that he will be able to handle Wandy. Even so, I wish I could be in Saitama to watch the fight. I caught one of the last Dream shows in Tokyo last year. It was clear that the promotion was just about broke, but there was still a tremendous amount of energy and enthusiasm in the arena. I think that people are going to treat this like the return of Pride. If Wandy goes out with a bang, maybe he can spark a resurgence of MMA in Japan too. If only Bas was doing the commentary...

 

[Sullybob]

I like the way you think Chris. Feed a faded legend a can and let them go out on a win. It's a rare fighter that quits while his is still winning, or at least winning more then he is losing.

 

[The Nid Hog]

Maybe that's the problem too. If you fed them a can, they'd stay around and ask for more.

 

[JM]

 

[JM]

 

[lowcountry_sc]

"I think that the UFC should have a special series of fights where faded legends get fed a can--even better if it's an especially annoying hack fighter--and let them knock them out then retire. It would be like a ritual. The could go straight from the cage to the UFC Hall of Fame.

Unfortunately, everybody sticks around for that final run at the title that never materializes and they end up getting hammered. I think that Stann has his limitations as a fighter, but I suspect that he will be able to handle Wandy. Even so, I wish I could be in Saitama to watch the fight. I caught one of the last Dream shows in Tokyo last year. It was clear that the promotion was just about broke, but there was still a tremendous amount of energy and enthusiasm in the arena. I think that people are going to treat this like the return of Pride. If Wandy goes out with a bang, maybe he can spark a resurgence of MMA in Japan too. If only Bas was doing the commentary..."

+1 on that entire post. The only thing I have to add is that they should all have the option to fight Michael Bispring or Koscheck. Most will lose, but occasionally we'll be treated to some delightful KO's against the two people easiest to root against.

Speaking of legends (Wandy), my favorite of all time has to be Sakuraba, his decline was painful to watch.

 

[The Nid Hog]

"I think that the UFC should have a special series of fights where faded legends get fed a can--even better if it's an especially annoying hack fighter--and let them knock them out then retire. It would be like a ritual. The could go straight from the cage to the UFC Hall of Fame.

Unfortunately, everybody sticks around for that final run at the title that never materializes and they end up getting hammered. I think that Stann has his limitations as a fighter, but I suspect that he will be able to handle Wandy. Even so, I wish I could be in Saitama to watch the fight. I caught one of the last Dream shows in Tokyo last year. It was clear that the promotion was just about broke, but there was still a tremendous amount of energy and enthusiasm in the arena. I think that people are going to treat this like the return of Pride. If Wandy goes out with a bang, maybe he can spark a resurgence of MMA in Japan too. If only Bas was doing the commentary..."

+1 on that entire post. The only thing I have to add is that they should all have the option to fight Michael Bispring or Koscheck. Most will lose, but occasionally we'll be treated to some delightful KO's against the two people easiest to root against.

Speaking of legends (Wandy), my favorite of all time has to be Sakuraba, his decline was painful to watch.

I love Sakuraba too. I tried to get over to his gym last summer, but things were pretty chaotic in Tokyo and I didn't get around to it. I think he's in pretty poor health in general as a result of his never-say-die attitude. Even so, he was awesome in his prime.

 

[lowcountry_sc]

Man, too bad. That would have been awesome. Apparently you'll probably never get the chance again, as I think his gym just shut down.

 

[The Nid Hog]

Wow, you're right. Looks like it shut down on the 7th. I guess I won't be getting that Tiger Mask T-Shirt.

 

[The Nid Hog]

UFC 155: Any predictions?

 

[rockviper]

JDS KO rd 2, but this is one of those fights that can end either way quickly.
Miller, Boetsch, Belcher also win
Hoping for Varner to win as well, as I don't like to even watch Guillard