Steep Angle Shaving - Why Would Anyone?

[Halfbeard]

I remember how you wrote that you feel the blade. Now shave steep and see. Do you always shave shallow? I only do for razors that prefer it, like the Blackbird or the mentioned Chiseled Face Legacy razor.

Allways shallow. That what shavettes have teached me. Next shave tomorrow will be my first (and last ?) steep angele shave.

My understanding is that guard is to help you out from the very bad situation when you shave angle is wrong/too steep.

 

[Iridian]

I still think you should try steep once more, there is an entire Steep Angle Shaver Alliance that has good reasons why the steep shave is the way to go. The bar is meant as a guard indeed, there are razors that shave so shallow that the bar is indeed nothing more than that. On the other hand, riding the bar is usually very good for a total cleanup pass.

But no need to force yourself with this or that razor, it will come naturally. There are lots of razors that will automatically guide you there, over time many here will get every razor floating around here in the threads, it's one of the more fascinating and kinda troubling facts of this forum!

 

[Goblin]

Just a thought about shallow cap riding shavers. If the guard is "floating" without full contact of the skin. would it be a fair assessment to say that the type of guard (open comb, closed comb, safety bar, and scalloped bar) be irrelevant?

I think that depends on the razor, e.g. my wonderful Fatips have so little gap that the open comb probably still makes a difference for more than 24hrs of growth. For OC versions of higher gap razors, it quite possibly wouldn’t.

For what it's worth, today I conducted my shave 50% pivoting down from the cap (which is what I always do) and 50% pivoting up from the guard. My most important observation from this was that whichever way I started, the angle I arrived at as the ideal shaving angle was the same!

With that said, I did find it faster and more comfortable to arrive at that angle by pivoting down from the cap. I suspect that many folks are like me, in that when initially laying the razor on the face, they make a few tiny "test strokes" to fine tune the angle by feel. I found that when holding the handle parallel to my face and pivoting up on the bar, I had to pivot through a much wider angle to reach the "sweet spot", and the test strokes when approaching the ideal angle from the steep side were more obviously scrapey and uncomfortable than when pivoting down from the cap - steep "felt wronger". It also occurred to me that, if I was a newbie applying too much pressure to the razor, then I think I would have been far more likely to cut myself when pivoting up to the ideal shaving angle than pivoting down to it.

I suspect different razors would yield different results, and it's also possible that after 10+ years of pivoting on the cap, I just find it easier to do. Still, it would be interesting to see if any confirmed steep angle shavers would conduct a shave in the same way, and see whether they also end up at the same ideal shaving angle regardless of whether they approach it from the cap or the bar. Perhaps we aren't so different after all!

 

[Iridian]

@Goblin to find the angle of the Blackbird I roll from the cap towards the bar and stop rather shallow, so yeah, that's a similarity. Then there is the Timeless Slim and the WR2 clones with huge gap, there I start almost vertical at the bar.
And THEN there is the Smart Helix Apollo Light... this one is weird, as it doesn't seem to have any guidance, ride the cap or the bar, and many angles at either end seem to work out nicely. It is not only because of that well worth getting, maybe it's available again when the conflict hopefully comes to an end. They are apparently still selling nevertheless, though.

 

[StewB]

@Goblin to find the angle of the Blackbird I roll from the cap towards the bar and stop rather shallow, so yeah, that's a similarity.

Same for me with the Blackbird. The "as designed" angle is easy to find due to the flat part of the head. Maintaining that angle is what feels a little "unnatural" (if that's the right word) to me. That's a "me" thing, of course. It's not difficult, but it requires more attention.

 

[deafficianado]

The degree of steep and shallow that is best for each razor varies based on it’s design. Most DE razor designs allow the user to adjust the degree and there is no set angle. Some razors such as the Henson, Winning razor, pivot razors, vintage Schicks & Gems require the whole front part of the razor being flush with the skin to perform correctly. The latter is more foolproof/easier as in less user skill required to achieve a decent shave and more in line with cartridge razors.

 

[Cafebarian]

Well truth be told (I have shared this on the forum a couple of times) I stared out shallow shaving for years. This was when the resurgence of DE shaving and all the YouTube videos on how to use a DE razor (there wasn't many over a decade ago) the first ones that came up showed the cap flat on face and bring the razor down until cutting is achieved. My shaves weren't the closest and I had some weepers etc. I lurked here for years picking up tips and of course hardware and software trying to get better and better. Just for context my shave area is purely neck, cheeks and head, as I have had a beard since around 2011/12 so the getting it right when only using the most sensitive part took time.

Then I noticed some videos (Geofatboy being one) using a steep angle and researching the topic more heavily thanks to many members post here, many are SASA members. This made me start switching to guard first to find "neutral" this was an improvement and over the years started getting steeper and steeper. This was all before joining the forum officially.
This took a lot of work getting rid of muscle memory but now that I shave steep, will never go back to swallow shaves. My neck is much happier etc. My Fatip used to cause tons of issues until switching.

*Edit if shallow works for you and you have no issues continue as this is my experience.

 

[Phoenixkh]

I think that depends on the razor, e.g. my wonderful Fatips have so little gap that the open comb probably still makes a difference for more than 24hrs of growth. For OC versions of higher gap razors, it quite possibly wouldn’t.

For what it's worth, today I conducted my shave 50% pivoting down from the cap (which is what I always do) and 50% pivoting up from the guard. My most important observation from this was that whichever way I started, the angle I arrived at as the ideal shaving angle was the same!

With that said, I did find it faster and more comfortable to arrive at that angle by pivoting down from the cap. I suspect that many folks are like me, in that when initially laying the razor on the face, they make a few tiny "test strokes" to fine tune the angle by feel. I found that when holding the handle parallel to my face and pivoting up on the bar, I had to pivot through a much wider angle to reach the "sweet spot", and the test strokes when approaching the ideal angle from the steep side were more obviously scrapey and uncomfortable than when pivoting down from the cap - steep "felt wronger". It also occurred to me that, if I was a newbie applying too much pressure to the razor, then I think I would have been far more likely to cut myself when pivoting up to the ideal shaving angle than pivoting down to it.

I suspect different razors would yield different results, and it's also possible that after 10+ years of pivoting on the cap, I just find it easier to do. Still, it would be interesting to see if any confirmed steep angle shavers would conduct a shave in the same way, and see whether they also end up at the same ideal shaving angle regardless of whether they approach it from the cap or the bar. Perhaps we aren't so different after all!

My hypothesis is... if you start shallow and find the sweet spot, if the razor has a wider sweet spot, you'll end up on the shallower end. If you start steep and do the same process, you'll end up on the steeper side of the sweet spot. Now.... if there is a very narrow sweet spot, I think both methods will lead you there. This is just a guess on my part, as I said.

I do start steep but try to end up with the very best angle the sweet spot allows. It ends up being different depending on the razor. As people have mentioned, it's the sound and feel that guides me.

 

[spacemonkey42]

You're surely right, @Phoenixkh. One exception, I can't imagine starting steep with the Blackbird and surviving that encounter!

 

[Phoenixkh]

You're surely right, @Phoenixkh. One exception, I can't imagine starting steep with the Blackbird and surviving that encounter!

There are a couple people here who shave steep with the Blackbird. It seems to work for them, though I agree with you... I don't know how. That said, I don't own a Blackbird so I don't know first hand.

 

[thombrogan]

Steep with a Blackbird is lemon-squeezy easy. Backing off on the pressure requires common sense, so I leave that to the experts.

 

[Halfbeard]

Today I tried shaving steep as urged by @Iridian. Not the best experience. I'll stay true what feels right for me.
Every shaving day is Shalloween.

 

[Anty]

I used to pretty much entirely shave shallow, but after reading the thread I’ve been experimenting.

So right now I’m steep, except on the lower chin.

Working like a charm.

 

[ivan_101]

This isn’t a dig – I know lots of folks favor this approach and I genuinely want to know what they consider to be the advantages.

I have always gravitated more towards shaving shallow and riding the cap. It’s the most comfortable way for me. Not only does it work in practice, but it also makes sense to me in theory.

Stated bluntly, to maximise the slicing capability of a blade, it must be necessary to present it to the base of the whiskers at as acute an angle as the razor geometry allows. I often find that if a stroke feels rough and inefficient, it’s because my angle has wandered too steep, and I need to shallow up again. It’s a phenomenon that quickly becomes obvious when shaving with open blades, but it applies to DE just as much. I also find that if a razor / blade combo is prone to chattering, then going as shallow as possible can help to mitigate the flex and chatter by making the stroke as efficient as it can be. Likewise, if a blade is borderline not quite sharp enough for comfort, going as shallow as possible helps it to slice through the whiskers as best it is able.

To put it another way, if there was a continuum with slicing at one end and scraping on the other, the closer you can get to perpendicular (shallow), the closer you are to slicing. The steeper your angle gets, the closer you are to scraping and the less efficient you are making the razor.

After all, you wouldn't dice vegetables holding the knife at a 45° angle to the direction of your stroke – it would obviously be far less effective than holding the knife perpendicular. So, why would you want to shave that way?

Given the above, I start to suspect that there may be more of a difference in how we describe things than in the angles that we hold our razors. Perhaps folks who claim to like steep angles are also using razors that put a lot of bend on the blade, so whilst the angle of their handle seems steep, the actual cutting edge is still shallow...but perhaps I am way off with that!

Another consideration is that it's only really possible to "choose" an angle with razors that have sufficient blade exposure to allow some variation - once you get to the point of neutral blade exposure, you are pretty much locked in to using a neutral angle because any deviation will break the contact of the blade with the skin. That means that whilst one person might approach a milder razor thinking that they are "riding the cap" and another approaches from the perspective of "riding the bar", chances are that the angles these two shavers end up with are likely to be almost the same, because that's what the razor geometry permits.

What say you, steep angle shavers?

I am not a steep angle shaver. I always go for neutral with a new razor. If it requires deviation in either direction I will change slightly.

Let me tell you a case from 8-9 years ago. I bought a Parker 62R. It is a discontinued model, but back then their 3-piece heads were with a much bigger gap than now. So I shave with the razor at least 5-6 times (neutral of course). The whiskers are cut except... I get serious weepers every time. 3-5 of them per shave. Left aside the razor for a couple of months. After that remembering about how it cut me consistently I tried steeper. It was a wonderful very close shave without any weepers or cuts.

To sum it up, I could never understand how many users claim "I am a steep angle shaver" or "I am a shallow angle shaver". How many different razors have you tried? There will always be those heads that will be different from the neutral angle. And on many razors it will look to you it is shallow or steep, but it is the head geomtery that will make it look like that. It is supposed to be neutral, the guard has it's function, as well as the cap.

And on razors with very little or zero exposure and a small gap you cannot deviate. It will not cut.

 

[Eben Stone]

Perhaps folks who claim to like steep angles are also using razors that put a lot of bend on the blade, so whilst the angle of their handle seems steep, the actual cutting edge is still shallow...

I have to agree with this, even though there's a lot of assumptions going on.

I shave steep WTG and shallow ATG with the Blackland Dart and Karve CB.

Shallow with R41.

Neutral with Ikon Tek (going from memory, it's been a while).

Shallow with the Henson +++. I apply pressure like it's a Mach3 and ride the cap.

Extreme shallow with straight razors, the goal for me is to have the spine touching.

And with the RazoRock Hawk V3 OC, I'm not exactly sure what I do. At this time in my shaving journey, excluding straight razors, it's the most challenging razor I own.

 

[NorthernSoul]

For what it's worth, today I conducted my shave 50% pivoting down from the cap (which is what I always do) and 50% pivoting up from the guard. My most important observation from this was that whichever way I started, the angle I arrived at as the ideal shaving angle was the same!

With that said, I did find it faster and more comfortable to arrive at that angle by pivoting down from the cap. I suspect that many folks are like me, in that when initially laying the razor on the face, they make a few tiny "test strokes" to fine tune the angle by feel. I found that when holding the handle parallel to my face and pivoting up on the bar, I had to pivot through a much wider angle to reach the "sweet spot", and the test strokes when approaching the ideal angle from the steep side were more obviously scrapey and uncomfortable than when pivoting down from the cap - steep "felt wronger". It also occurred to me that, if I was a newbie applying too much pressure to the razor, then I think I would have been far more likely to cut myself when pivoting up to the ideal shaving angle than pivoting down to it.

There's really no need to "pivot" from the extreme end of the range. With experience, you will have built muscle memory with each razor, so you will know roughly where a good starting angle is. Then, just do fine adjustments from there. I go more by feel and sound than by appearance; no need to get out the protractor and measure angles. I could probably shave without a mirror.

 

[Goblin]

There's really no need to "pivot" from the extreme end of the range. With experience, you will have built muscle memory with each razor, so you will know roughly where a good starting angle is. Then, just do fine adjustments from there. I go more by feel and sound than by appearance; no need to get out the protractor and measure angles. I could probably shave without a mirror.

Likewise - sensation is the ultimate guide. I always tell new shavers who are obsessing over having a 30° angle to forget about what it looks like and go by feel. Still, when trying to determine whether one method may be preferable to another, I hoped to imagine myself in the shoes of a newbie with no preconceived bias or established technique.

Of course, that's almost impossible to do! I think the years of practice contributed significantly to why I found it easier to "pivot" down, moving quickly to the correct angle to engage the blade. When "pivoting" up I didn't have that advantage, so my efforts were more comparable to those of a new shaver.

Although as noted above, it did seem to me that when pivoting up there was a greater chance of getting the angle wrong and laying the razor down blade first (assuming positive exposure). Also, it seemed like strokes made before the perfect angle was arrived at were more uncomfortable. I am not sure how much of that is a reasonable conclusion and how much is again down to my existing prejudices.

I guess, to reiterate what I said before, one thing I can say is that I now suspect the difference in the actual angles adopted by self-professed "steep" and "shallow" shavers is probably not that significant - we just have different ways of getting there. Other than that, I was confirmed in my opinion that riding the cap and pivoting down works better for me personally, and I see no reason not to continuing recommending it to newbies who need help finding and controlling their angles, just as it was recommended to me. The fact that several recent Youtube "experts" seem to recommend that newbies start from the bar and pivot up did make me wonder if I had been missing a trick and giving sub-optimal advice for all these years, but I am satisfied that's not the case.

 

[NorthernSoul]

I guess, to reiterate what I said before, one thing I can say is that I now suspect the difference in the actual angles adopted by self-professed "steep" and "shallow" shavers is probably not that significant - we just have different ways of getting there. Other than that, I was confirmed in my opinion that riding the cap and pivoting down works better for me personally, and I see no reason not to continuing recommending it to newbies who need help finding and controlling their angles, just as it was recommended to me. The fact that several recent Youtube "experts" seem to recommend that newbies start from the bar and pivot up did make me wonder if I had been missing a trick and giving sub-optimal advice for all these years, but I am satisfied that's not the case.

To reiterate, you're set in your ways!

Well, I hope this elaborate exchange was useful in some way.

 

[Goblin]

To reiterate, you're set in your ways!

That's another way of putting it!

Or at least, I can't see any obvious reason to prefer the alternative over what I am currently doing, which isn't quite the same.

It was useful. I could have saved a lot of time and effort by simply deciding to experiment without starting a thread about it, but if it wasn't for this kind of over-elaborate, technical, hair-splitting nerdery I don't know what we would talk about all day...apart from the latest $200 dollar razor (which probably isn't that different from the last one) or the latest old soap to get discontinued!

 

[sternej]

If your 'steady handed, with a good tactile grip' technique is good enough (mine isn't), and you have a well ballanced light to medium weight razor, shaving off the cap can give some amazing results. One razor that for me demands a shallow angle is the PAA Filament. I can't figure out how to rest those teeth against my face and have the blade straight. I have come to the conclusion that with most DE razors that bar is meant to rest on your face, along with the blade (Duh). I find when intuitively, I start riding the cap mid shave it's to lighten the pressure and my razor's way of telliing me the blade it getting dull.