New Norton honer with some full edge restore questions

[jKyro]

Good evening Gents,

I just recently purchased the norton kit with the 220/1000, 4/8k and the lapping stone. It came in the mail today and I flattened them all. I went to work on a blade I tried restoring with lapping film and pretty much started over. I'll say what I did first:

1. worked the edge flat on the 220 with the spine slightly off of the stone.
2. Set the bevel on one side, flipped it over set it on this side until both sides looked roughly even and did about 20-25 more back and forth passes to completely remove the burr.
3. 50 passes on the 4000
4. 75 passes on the 8000
5. 100 passes on the leather strop

I have some CrOx Coming in the mail but I read that many people go from the 8000 to leather and get great shaves. I'm always a little afraid to take blades I home myself to my face.... So my arm and my wife's leg are bare. However it just doesn't quite feel like the hot knife through butter it should.

Is is it my first one on hones? Yes. Did I expect amazing? Of course I did. So if you guys could give me your normal progression on this home set from a blade that needs a completely new edge so I have something to try I would be eternally grateful!

 

[bluesman 7]

Step 2 was probably not good enough. Getting the bevel reveals even is not the same as setting "The Bevel" Presumably step 2 was on the 1k. the razor should shave arm hair easily toe to heel, pass TNT, etc., when the bevel is set. The bevel is the edge, the rest is polishing.

 

[rockviper]

I agree with bluesman 7. It took me a while to figure out (i.e "accept") that what I thought was a good bevel wasn't. The second last paragraph in this post (partial quote below) is what made things click for me. I even have it bookmarked to reread from time to time.

Before you advance from the 1k, the bevel must be set 100%. When you think it's set, it probably isn't. When you believe strongly that it's set, it probably still isn't. When you'd swear on a stack of 'Interpretive Dance Quarterlies' that it's set, then you're ready. A good way to know that the bevel is set is when you can float the razor above your arm or leg hair and have it popping hair effortlessly. If the edge can just contact the hair and it immediately pops, then it's ready. Make sure it does this all the way across the edge from heel to toe. The rest of the honing process is pie compared to this, but this part is the most important.

The honing angle is set by the spine resting on the hone; the blade was engineered and made to be honed this way, so you don't have to worry about it. Pressure is generally the weight of the blade on the hone, little more than that if anything. If pressure is used, no more than what you'd use on a pencil eraser. Even that level of pressure is only for edge repair or bevel setting when steel needs to be removed in quantity. When you're in the finishing stages, weight of the blade only. A good stroke should glide across the stone with no catching, grabbing or acoustic changes. If you lift the spine toward the edge, you'll feel the blade try to dig into the hone. If you lift the edge on a stroke, you'll hear an acoustic change, like a grating sound. When that happens, you'll probably have to go back to the previous honing grit to work it out. Keep your elbow parallel to the hone, don't lift the spine and you'll be fine.

 

[totorlekiller]

I'd recommend getting a x100 microscope. They are $6 on ebay and would give you valuable information, especially as a beginner.
Bevel is set when:
1/ as stated before when it shaves effortlessly arm/leg hair at the root
2/ when the edge is a clean line without any micro chips that are not visible to the normal eye.

Also, from an 8K Norton, you are at 3 microns.
The crOx is 0.5 microns, so it will take quite a few laps to get there.

Most likely you bevel is not set fully. Once you get there, then if you still do not have crOx, you can also use the cloth side of the strop which is more abrasive than the leather one.
And to give order of magnitudes, after a Shapton 16k, which is at 0.9 microns, I do 50 laps (round trip) on crOX (applied on suede strop), followed by same on linen and leather.

I have been able to shave on a Norton 8K edge, after refinement on crOx, but I can't say it was very smooth.

 

[jKyro]

Awesome info guys thanks for all the replies! Would it be bad for me to take it as is be and go back to the 1000? Or is that exactly what everyone is saying?

Also totorlekiller, are you saying you Put CrOx on the leather side as well?

I also have some 1 and .3 lapping film laying around, could I go from the 8k to the 1 micron and be ok with this?

 

[rockviper]

Back to the 1k is where you need to be right now.

 

[jKyro]

The razor had a really crooked angle. Short frown (about a 1/4 in) at the tip and angled up near the heel. I had to remove a decent amount of steal and didn't want to set a double bevel with the tape. I realized afterward though that I could have taped on the 220 and worked it down on the 1000 to set the bevel.

 

[jKyro]

Aright I went and did another ~250 round trip passes on the 1000 and it was popping hairs pretty well above my leg (my arms are already bare :-(). Then I did ~75 on the 4k, ~100 on the 8k and another ~100 on some 1 micron lapping film I laid on the hone. Still don't have the CrOx so I went to the canvas strop for 50 and the leather for 100. Again I'm pretty new to this and don't really know the feel on all of the tests but at least on my leg I dont feel any catchin this time. Don't know about all of my numbers but I'm just going to go ahead and give it the shave test and I'll let yall know how it goes. And yes.... If it doesn't go well I will finish the shave and take a pic of my hamburger for you guys to get a chuckle. It's thanksgiving and I won't have time to go back to it until tonight if it doesn't go well. Wish me luck! If I don't post soon my wife ran me to the ER.

 

[jKyro]

Definitely wasn't sharp enough! My face is burning. Fairly smooth.... But burning. Back to the 1k drawing board

 

[jKyro]

Will do! Tonight will be a new adventure. I still have two legs and a chest to practice on

 

[Avenolpey]

Coming off an 8k to CrOx is a formula for disaster. I would suggest coming off the 8k to film and then clean the blade and go straight to leather and test shave. If you have a loop you want to check as you go that you are removing the deep scratches from each previous stone in the progression.

 

[rockviper]

I've been shaving off of a stropped Norton 8k edge for over a month or so now with no ill effects.

 

[Gamma]

Evening the bevel based on looking at the bevel doesnt mean it's set.
After that visual confirmation, you'll likely need a gazillion laps to get the bevel 'there on a 1k.
Check the stone for flatness repeatedly during the process.
Learn the TNT - I can tree top arm hair with my spyderco, and slice fruits/veggies with it too - but I don't want to shave with it.
The TNT will tell you if the bevel's planes are meeting correctly though.
After you get a pass on the TNT - a moderate amount of 4k followed by less than 30 laps on the 8k.
If you go to the 8k and you see excessive swarf after a few passes - your 4k work wasn't done well enough. Go back to the 4k and work it longer - you should not see dark black trails on the 8k now. If you do, go back and do more on the 4k.
After you get to the point where you can hone 5 laps on the 8k with only faint trails of swarf - go another 15-20 laps and done.
If you want to use Crox at this point, it's fine, just go easy. Me - Id shave test the edge to see if I liked it first. Crox on this edge will be ok, but if you shortchange the TNT or the no-swarf thing, your face will burn and you may get weepers and you will probably feel tugging also. The greater the fudge on those steps - the greater the pain during and after the shave.

If you learn the TNT and you get a solid pass there, and then you get the no-swarf 8k thing down, you'll have a real Norton 8k edge.
to me - that's still an undercooked edge but everyone likes what they like.

 

[totorlekiller]

If you have 0.3 microns film, you might not need crOx, which is the same order of magnitude thin.

And about stropping with crOx, I had a cheap eBay strop with leather on one side and suede on the other instead of cloth. I am using that suede side for crOx. Other typically use cloth strop, or when using powdered crOx, a balsa board.

 

[Avenolpey]

Could be, maybe not. There are a lot of guys (myself included) who have gone right from 8K to clean leather and then shaved. In fact, shaving after each progressive step can be a great teacher. Disaster? Hardly. Learning experience? Definitely.

CrOx would probably improve the edge after the 8K a little in my experience.

YMMV,

Frank

I would rather go from 8k to leather than paste. I think you need a more refined edge for paste not to make thing very harsh.

 

[jKyro]

Can someone enlighten me on what the TNT is or point me in the right direction? I've heard of TPT and the HHT but not that one.

 

[bluesman 7]

TNT= Thumb Nail Test. Used at bevel setting stage. Blade is perpendicular to WET thumb nail and lightly dragged as if cutting. If the bevel is set you feel a uniform drag because the blade is cutting into the nail. If there are flat spots on the edge where the bevel planes do not meet the blade glides in those places. The test is slightly destructive and more laps at the same grit are usually done before moving to the next stone.

 

[jKyro]

Oh yea I've done that. Maybe just not as good as I should have

 

[jKyro]

Alright I went back to the 1k for a good amount of time until I could feel it slicing into my nail the whole way. Ended up cutting into the meat..... So I assume it's good lol. Followed the swarf idea of the black streaks and didn't have any on the 8k. I did have to lap the 1k again as well. We'll see in the morning how it goes!

 

[bluesman 7]

I could feel it slicing into my nail the whole way. Ended up cutting into the meat..... !

This is WAY too much pressure!