New Norton honer with some full edge restore questions

[jKyro]

I was kidding. So today's shave went better. Still a bit of tug though going against the grain. I followed up on the 1m lapping film. Would using the .3 really offer much of a difference?

 

[Proinsias]

Maybe. I've heard a little damp paper under the 1µm film can help but I've never used films myself.

Are you working with a light touch? You might be fine, it's just whenever someone new to this mentions raising burrs I worry about the use of pressure throughout.

If you've got a few shaves to burn & don't mind the pun I'd shave from the ground up. Put the best 1K edge you can, strop & shave, polish it to 4K, strop and shave, polish to 8K.........If you've got a few razors finish them to different levels and compare how they shave.

 

[jKyro]

Unfortunately at the moment I only have two and one doesn't have scales on it. Not yet anyway, my order from bell forest comes in a couple days.

You our mentioned you worry about the pressure, I was under the impression that on the 1k at first you use a decent amount of pressure, then once the burrs have shown up, you ease up. I could have been wrong once again.

On the up side, my CrOx just showed up.

 

[Proinsias]

I raise burrs at 1K on my knives, but not on my razors. I appreciate all sharpening to some extent is raising burrs but I'm talking in terms of detecatable to the touch. Pressure is a relative thing but I think Bart summed up 'decent pressure' as similar to what you'd use on a rubber to remove pencil markings. It took me a long while to gain some control of the gap between too much pressure and no pressure, regular practice over time sorts it out.

 

[jKyro]

I kind of figured as much. The one without scales if a project for my brother in law for Christmas. I restored the blade pretty well and am making the scales next week. I may have to send that one to get honed since I don't really know if I'll get this down before Christmas. We'll see though.

 

[Gamma]

The TNT isnt just about the edge cutting in to the nail across the edge, although thats part of it.
You should also feel no variance in edge width as you go.
Always a good idea to follow a passing TNT with a few more passes on the 1k.

If you handle crox after the 8k correctly - it wont be any more harsh than it would be if a higher grit stone was employed as the finisher.
Of course the work leading to the 8k has to be spot on - or its all for naught.

If you're not going to use crox - I wouldnt expect a great ATG. Its a 3um stone, approx 5k JIS.

 

[rockviper]

That describes my ATG from a Norton 8k edge, Gamma. "Functional, but not wonderful"

 

[jKyro]

Well that's frickin lame. I always go ATG with my DEs or shavettes. Is there another stone I should purchase to throw in there to get it more smooth ATG? The truth is it was fine WTG... XTG was a little catchy but not bad. It was just against the grain that was rough.

Frank - I'll post some pics of the blade in the AM, however the only camera I have is my iPhone 5s. I haven't made the scales yet by I have wenge, African mahogany and african ebony coming. I'll decide what to do when they get here this week. The one I'm using now was a restore job for myself so I didn't worry about making it perfect but I will say it was in worse condition edge wise than the other. Like I said thiugh, I'll post some pics tomorrow. I'm building my shop out in the shed so it may be in the afternoon, but it'll get there.

 

[Gamma]

Well that's frickin lame. I always go ATG with my DEs or shavettes. Is there another stone I should purchase to throw in there to get it more smooth ATG? The truth is it was fine WTG... XTG was a little catchy but not bad. It was just against the grain that was rough.

And this is one of three reasons that got me to move to Naniwa stones fairly quickly.
while the grand poobahs of the hone-zone were telling me that combo was all anyone would ever need, a simple but extensive side-by-side comparison of the SS 8k against the Norton 8k proved otherwise.
While there are some that claim those two stones yield equivalent edges, I do not find that to be the case in my house with my razors.
For a while - I was following the Norton 8k with the SS 8k; once I had a full SS set, the Norton moved on.

 

[DJKELLY]

Scanning through your whole thread, I would add a few things. You can get a great against the grain pass with the Norton 8k if you sneak up on it correctly. It does take technique and is not as easy as another, finer stone that will give up sharper edges much more easily, but again, you can do it, especially with very judicious use of CroX.

First about pressure. There is pressure and then there is torque. You can use a lot of pressure on the spine and do nothing at the edge and vice versa. I personally use quite a bit of torque during all of the early honing--way past bevel set--which I believe bends the bevel a bit and in effect creates a convex or double bevel without tape. (It is the same thing in the knife world as thinning the bevel.) Only in the final polishing stage/stages do I use even, light pressure at both the spine and the edge. By the way, the way I apply torque is to hold the razor by the tang only (no fingers on the spine). I also prefer to hand hold even heavy stones, but you can learn either/both ways.

I don't know how much experience you have in stropping, but it is a great place to look for problems if you are new and using a hanging strop. It is very easy to put uneven pressure on a hanging strop (listen and feel to get better) and not improve the edge. It takes only one bad transition to go backwards quite a bit.

I would suggest you try stropping with your strop on a counter top or other flat surface and see if you get a difference. I used paddle strops at first with great results and had to learn the hanging strop--wouldn't trade it now for anything.

Another idea for stropping is folded newspaper, either before leather or alone.

As for CrOx, know that there are different grades but most will do the job. It takes much, much less work on CrOx than seems logical. Six strokes will make a huge difference and the substrate should be smooth and not smothered in green. Some hanging strops don't take it well unless it is in spray form. What kind of CrOx are you getting? Paste/crayon, spray, or oil? Again, newspaper makes a great substrate. Again, less is more. Also, well prepped balsa strops are readily available and work well.

In the same way you were asked to shave off of each level of honing and polishing, you should do the same with strops on CrOx over six. Try six, then ten and I bet you will see a difference. Any more than that and you are relying too much on the paste. Most good honers strive never to have to use it but some pastes like Gary's suggestion (white Theirs/Issards) is handy in the middle of a shave if you need a little boost on a tugging blade.

A couple other things....sorry. To check for the bevel being set I suggest you at least give Doc's tomato test a try. You will later develop your own tests that are reliable. I personally can test an edge with a single hair, still on my arm or leg, but that is my test. The tomato test seems to be foolproof and though I have been doing this for a long time, I still sometimes use Doc's test for fun. (In full disclosure, I am a tomato farmer and Doc's concession is my retirement fund.) The edge should melt into the skin of the tomato. When you can get it to do that, find a test you like.

Finally, if you need a stone that is capable of greater refinement that the 8K Norton, let me know and I will send you a small Jnat or coticule sample that was PIFd to me. You will probably have to do circles on it but it will work great if you have the technique. Later, Denny

 

[jKyro]

Denny-
thanks for all the info. I'll have to pick up a few tomatoes at the store. And laying the strop down may be helpful as well because I think I'm applying too much pressure on the strop. The honest truth here is I've never shaved with an actual straight razor. Just de and shavettes. I won a pif a while ago of a guy who was going to restore a razor for me for my first (which is what got the hair up my butt to start restoring myself) but he has since fallen off the grid and I don't want to pester him anymore. If all else fails I may take you up on the coticule, at least just to try and send back.

Thanks everyone one for the help. I've been out in the shop all day... Well building the shop all day, so I'll get some pics of the blade I'm restoring up in a bit!

 

[jKyro]

Also following some advice I have a 30x and 40x jeweler a loupes in the mail. The 40 was only $3 so I just went ahead and got both

 

[jKyro]

 

[jKyro]

Had to leave a little putting because I would have had to dig deeper than I wanted. Those were the after, here's a couple before

 

[jKyro]

Started with 150 all the way up through 2000 and some 3 and 1 micron lapping film. If you've never tried polishing with lapping film.... Don't waste your time. Stick with emery or micromesh. It didn't do much. Followed up with some mothers. My brother in law is a very "vintage," or as some say, "hipster," type of person, so he'll probably like the minor imperfections haha.

 

[jKyro]

Thanks. Like I said though. Depending on when my bellforest shipment gets here, I may have to find someone who will home it and have it back before the 20th. I don't want to give him a half a$$ed edge.

Update:
last night I went back all the way to the 220 and worked up. I did damn near 1500 laps on the 1k and did the tomato test, tnt, TPT and everything seemed ok. Worked on the 4k, 8k, 1um and .3 um film then did about 150 laps on a flat leather strop with no pressure. Still isn't toot liking. Anyone know of anybody near the Tacoma Washington area who may give classes?

 

[jKyro]

So I'm sure you've all heard of Murray carter. The guy who can get kitchen knives and axes sharp enough to shave with? Ok, so... He hones all of his razors the other way, you know, like the way you use a strop. Edge following spine. He brings up a couple of good points in one of his videos and if I can find it I'll post it. Basically about how to matter what grit you use you'll get teeny tiny microchips if you go edge first. Idk. I emailed him to see if he has any advice and like a straight idiot without waiting I went ahead and honed my razor that way. Sigh.... I guess I'll update you in the morning. If anything it'll once again provide a good laugh.

 

[totorlekiller]

Thanks. Like I said though. Depending on when my bellforest shipment gets here, I may have to find someone who will home it and have it back before the 20th. I don't want to give him a half a$$ed edge.

Update:
last night I went back all the way to the 220 and worked up. I did damn near 1500 laps on the 1k and did the tomato test, tnt, TPT and everything seemed ok. Worked on the 4k, 8k, 1um and .3 um film then did about 150 laps on a flat leather strop with no pressure. Still isn't toot liking. Anyone know of anybody near the Tacoma Washington area who may give classes?

Do you have a microscope?
I highly recommend getting a 100x for $6 on eBay especially when you begin and can not rely yet on the stones' feedback.
Without that kind of magnification, you can't tell when to move from one stage to another past the bevel set.
And even for the bevel, very often I have a blade that shaves arms hair fine, but is severely serrated under 100x magnification. So it would pass bevel test, but would shave horribly if moved through a progression

 

[jKyro]

I have a 30x and a 40x in the mail. Then after reading your post I ordered a 100x too. Swmbo won't be too happy about the frivolous orders but whatever. I do what I want haha.

 

[jKyro]

I think I know my problem. I think this already had (and I also did it myself) excessive spine wear. Should I maybe try taping the edge and starting over?