Is DE/Straight wetshaving making a comeback.

[moto]

i was wondering if anyone knows a shop owner/vendor or online retailer and how their business has been going lately and also how they see the future of wetshaving?

i've sent an e-mail to an online retailer here in australia called mensbiz for his opinions. they are a member here and offer members a discount on purchases.
it would be interesting to see his and other retailers opinions?

 

[Mr. Gillette]

Here in Australia I see no advertising about any of the products we use here, only the Gillette ads with their 5 blades and foam/gel. Why is this? Happy shaving,
moto,

Simple...Austrailia was founded over 200 years ago as a Penal colony...obviously it still is, Mate!

 

[mmack66]

Because their profit margin would drop to the point they couldn't compete, since third parties do not pay for the massive advertising they do, or have the overhead costs they do.

They still sell Sensors and cartridges for all the other razors. They will still sell it. Some folks will buy it just because it says Gillette on it.

 

[mmack66]

I hate to be all doom and gloom here, but I think that DE wetshaving is dying out in the US. Yes there are more enthusiasts here on this forum every year, but we're still a very small group - we are concentrated in a few forums which makes it seem like there are more of us than there really are. Meanwhile the guys that learned with the DE and Injector and never switched to the cartridges are dying off from old age. They just used their old trusty fatboy and US Personnas or Gillettes and Williams soap and a beat-up old badger brush, and didn't blather on about it on the internet, but they bought blades and soap and the late lamented Palmolive shaving cream.

DE/SE wetshaving died in the US about 30 years ago when Gillette stopped making DE razors. But, there is definitely a resurgence in DE/SE wetshaving today.

 

[DirtyDave]

I hope I am wrong, but while wet shaving does grow, it is still a niche, boutique item. I would prefer to think it is trend that is about to explode, but I don't that is correct.

I think there is somewhere out there a natural limit to who is really interested in wet shaving as we are. I say this because we enjoy shaving. We took a daily task that most guys consider a pain and made it a pleasure. We like soaps and scents. We make shaving fun, an adventure and a social affair. That is why this and a couple of other shaving sites thrive.

We are all about mass customization, as marketing experts Pepper and Rodgers call it and the internet made is all possible. For the majority of the market it is and will always be a mass market. Truth be told most guys get a tolerable shave from the stuff from the supermarket or the electric razor from Walmart. For them shaving is always going to a daily drudgery and products we dismiss will stay popular. For them, the Gillette shaving system works. On to the rest of the day.

What we consider more traditional and more preferable ways of shaving is most popular in less wealthy countries. Assuming these countries become more wealthy my guess is that a healthy percentage of will switch to cartridges, cans of goo and electrics. My guess those guys will see shaving a daily drudgery as well. Gillette sees rising world wide prosperity as new markets emerging, and they are probably right.

It's nice to know that I can afford to go that route if I want to. It's nice to know I don't have to go that route if I don't want to. I have chosen not to go that route.

I am not worried the future of wet shaving. I think we are going to be fine. My guess is a sufficient number will stay with or rediscover wet shaving despite their more fortunate economic well being. They too will enjoy shaving for the masculine pleasure that it is. Their main source too will be the internet. So for the online vendors, mom and pop start ups and online shaving sites, business will continue to grow. We are a thriving niche. I just hope the keep making Derby blades in Turkey, Merkur razors in Germany, SCS soaps in Missouri and J M Fraser's in Canada. Life will continue to be good.

 

[mparker762]

DE/SE wetshaving died in the US about 30 years ago when Gillette stopped making DE razors. But, there is definitely a resurgence in DE/SE wetshaving today.

There were a bunch of guys that never switched, so DE wetshaving was only "sort of" dead. If even 1% of the old guys refused to switch then we're talking a million or so just in the US.

If the membership of this forum is any indication, there aren't nearly enough coming back to it to make up for the larger numbers that are dying off of old age, we're just slowing down the rate of decline a very little bit. It only seems like there's a real DE resurgence because all of us are clumped together in one or two places. And I'm sure that the DE manufacturers are happy because those old guys probably weren't buying a lot of new razors while we are. But I suspect that there would need to be about 100K new DE users a year just to match the attrition losses at the elder end.

Now I'll agree with you though that there appears to be a real resurgence in straight razor shaving, but this is mostly because all the old generation of straight razor shavers mostly died out long ago, so pretty much all new SR users are a net increase in the SR-shaving population. The last old SR shaver in my family died about five years ago (though I didn't realize he used a SR until after his death), and most of his SR-using brothers and cousins had died several decades ago.

 

[rav]

Most everyone I know is a wetshaver. It's mainly a Mach3 or some other cartridge razor. Everyone is stretching out the cartridge use for at least a month and nearly everyone complains about the cost and razor burn.

When I tell people that I'm trying to switch over to DE shaving, I'm generally asked isn't that dangerous and secondly that if it takes any more than five minutes a shave then they're not interested. I know the common consensus is that once you get into DE shaving it's an enjoyable experience, but for some like me, it's not. It's still shaving and though not painful now, it's not exactly something I enjoy. I would rather have the extra 15 minutes in bed in the morning than spend it on shaving. Though the cost savings (at the moment I have fought off all ADs, I think my motivation to get a slant or a progress is gone), are really good and the lack of razor burn amazing.

I don't think that there is a resuragance in DE/Straight shaving, but I will say that once I settle on a blade, I'll stockpile and then keep an eye on the market to make sure that the blades I like don't disappear.

 

[mmack66]

There were a bunch of guys that never switched, so DE wetshaving was only "sort of" dead. If even 1% of the old guys refused to switch then we're talking a million or so just in the US.

If the membership of this forum is any indication, there aren't nearly enough coming back to it to make up for the larger numbers that are dying off of old age, we're just slowing down the rate of decline a very little bit. It only seems like there's a real DE resurgence because all of us are clumped together in one or two places. And I'm sure that the DE manufacturers are happy because those old guys probably weren't buying a lot of new razors while we are. But I suspect that there would need to be about 100K new DE users a year just to match the attrition losses at the elder end.

Now I'll agree with you though that there appears to be a real resurgence in straight razor shaving, but this is mostly because all the old generation of straight razor shavers mostly died out long ago, so pretty much all new SR users are a net increase in the SR-shaving population. The last old SR shaver in my family died about five years ago (though I didn't realize he used a SR until after his death), and most of his SR-using brothers and cousins had died several decades ago.

Nobody is saying that DE wetshaving is going to supplant cartridge razor shaving. There are simply too many people that don't care enough about shaving to bother with trying to improve their shave. It is impossible to know how many DE shavers are dying versus how many are taking it up anew so those types of musings are useless. I just hope they don't stop making blades, cause that would cause everything to crash.

 

[mparker762]

I'm just speculating about the relative rates of decline among the older DE shavers and growth among us younger guys, and trying to avoid the rose-colored glasses effect of hanging around with a bunch of like-minded conspirators.

OTOH Palmolive got out of the shave lather business several years ago, presumably not because business was so brisk they couldn't keep up. Soaps and creams that have been unchanged for decades or even centuries have been suffering the indignity of reformulation for years now, seemingly victims of a costcutting move that is both surprisingly widespread and also seems at odds with the theory of a growing wetshaving movement. DE, GEM, and Injector blades are getting harder and harder to source locally, though possibly this is due to pressure from Gillette trying to move Fusion products. Meanwhile has anybody definitively figured out what happened to the supply of the "Swedish Personnas"?

 

[SavantStrike]

Definitely agree with the grumbling--if not outright rejection--towards the Fusion. Unfortunately, electrics seem to be the route most guys are taking. Anyone have any data on electric razor sales growth or declines since the introduction of the Fusion?

Actually a quick glance through a few web searches shows that (according to some) razor sales are declining because men have decided to grow facial hair since it's cheaper and also fashionable (that stubble look)...

 

[Sweeney Todd]

I'm a frequent poster on a general Irish message board where at any time
there are about one to two thousand members online at any time and double
that number of guests. Since early this year there's a thread active with 10-20
new DE users who have migrated from carts. I only started shaving with
a safety razor after twenty years of cartridge systems and have not looked
back. Three of my friends have also moved to safety razors since and I've another
three or four seriously looking at it - they've asked me to send them links
and let them know if I see some nice vintage Gillettes.

 

[mmack66]

I'm just speculating about the relative rates of decline among the older DE shavers and growth among us younger guys, and trying to avoid the rose-colored glasses effect of hanging around with a bunch of like-minded conspirators.

OTOH Palmolive got out of the shave lather business several years ago, presumably not because business was so brisk they couldn't keep up. Soaps and creams that have been unchanged for decades or even centuries have been suffering the indignity of reformulation for years now, seemingly victims of a costcutting move that is both surprisingly widespread and also seems at odds with the theory of a growing wetshaving movement. DE, GEM, and Injector blades are getting harder and harder to source locally, though possibly this is due to pressure from Gillette trying to move Fusion products. Meanwhile has anybody definitively figured out what happened to the supply of the "Swedish Personnas"?

I don't understand your conclusions but whatever. I enjoy using vintage DE and SE razors and that is all that really matters to me. I have razors that will outlast me and I only hope that I will be able to continue to buy blades in the future.

I doubt that Proctor & Gamble has any influence on Personna or Shick as far as blade sales. Blades have been hard to come by locally for years.

I assume you mean Swedish Gillette blades. There is a big thread about them on B&B.

 

[hold123]

Hi Moto.

This is an interesting thread. Thanks for inviting me to give my two cents.

I'd have to agree that wet shaving remains a small, niche market. Don't expect to see any mainstream advertising - it's far too expensive to try and convince the average guy that the cartridge razor he's been using for the past 10 years is flawed and that a DE or straight razor is the answer to all his problems. It's a revolution that's going to have to come from us, as passionate believers, preaching the advantages of DE shaving to the unconverted.

That said, a number of the big manufacturers in this sector are expanding their offerings, and sales of straight razors are booming (Dovo has an extraordinary nine month waiting list for some of their products) - so I think the market is showing healthy signs and is nowhere near saturation point.

I'd like to think that one day every guy will at least have a shaving brush and a quality shave cream or soap in their bathroom ... but I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Cheers,
Nathan.

 

[mretzloff]

Because their profit margin would drop to the point they couldn't compete, since third parties do not pay for the massive advertising they do, or have the overhead costs they do.

It doesn't matter. As long as they are breaking even at least, they should still keep making M3. This is a basic concept of economics.

Plus, realistically, if they stopped making M3s, they risk alienating customers.

 

[mmack66]

It doesn't matter. As long as they are breaking even at least, they should still keep making M3. This is a basic concept of economics.

Plus, realistically, if they stopped making M3s, they risk alienating customers.

Eventually, like the Trac II, Atra, and possibly soon the Sensor, they will stop selling the handle but still sell the blades. Judging by the advertising they are doing to try to get Mach3 users to switch to the Fusion, Gillette/P&G will have to keep selling it or they will really be in a pickle. I don't know this for a fact, but the Mach3 probably sells better than the Fusion.

 

[BobK1]

There are a few factors at work here. One is perception. One is percentage. One is greed.

Perception: Working as I do for a major pharmacy chain, I see a lot of customers and one day while stocking the shaving section I was talking to a customer that I knew for quite some time and even from a previous job. He was looking at some canned goo and I joked that there are so many to choose from, he replied that he agreed with me. I then commented that I was just sorry that with so much canned goo to choose from, that we only carry one actual shave soap, Williams. His reply was "you don't actually still use soap with a brush, do you?" I said "Yes, and as a matter of fact, I use a DE razor." He commented about how he still had a Gillette adjustable at home but does not use it. I remarked about how he could get a much closer shave with it than the cartridges that he also had in his hand, and his reply was "Oh, I know, but who has the time?"

I, for one, MAKE the time. I have discovered that there is something "right" about taking a few minutes and devoting them to myself. Sure I indulge in "distractions" to forget about the world at times, who doesn't? But I also take a few minutes in the morning to relax and spend some quality time on myself, and you know what? I face the day with a better attitude for it. Yes, it does take some time, but really, it does not take all that much more than I would have to use some canned goo and a cartridge.

Percentage: There are really two aspects to this. One, proper wetshaving did definitely hit a low point a little while ago, and is on it's way back. But, as a percentage it will more than likely continue to decrease. The population is growing at a faster pace than proper wetshaving is. So as a percentage, the number of proper wetshavers is decreasing even while the actual number is growing. Second, as the percentage drops, so do the returns, and manufacturing and advertising costs continue to rise. As an example, a few years ago I was working for an electronics retailer, and would constantly endure older folks walking in with a radio, tape recorder, whatever. that they wanted to repair. I would reply that the item was not built to be serviceable and even if it could be repaired, the cost of doing so would far exceed the replacement cost of the unit. Their remark would usually be "I remember when things were made well, and COULD be repaired." Well, they were right, but they were wrong too. There was a time when a simple radio would have cost around $200, but at that time a new car was only around $600. AND the radio HAD to be serviced, and serviced regularly. I for one am glad that radios don't cost a third as much as a new car, and will gladly toss one in the garbage and replace it for $20 while a basic new car is around $20,000. You'll also notice that those same $20 radios don't get much advertising either. How are you going to bury the cost of advertising into a 15 to 25 cent blade? but you can bury that advertising cost into a several dollar cartridge. You can bury the cost of new more efficient manufacturing machinery in that same several dollar cartridge.

Greed: Even with the rising number of wetshavers there is a larger and faster growing number of cartridge users out there as well, and any company CEO that is worth his weight in salt will try to capture that cartridge market. If any of you have seen the movie "The Hustler" with Paul Newman, you may remember when he returns to the George C. Scott character with his decision that he figured that he would rather have 20 percent of something big, than 100 percent of nothing. Well, that same logic applies to the whole cartridge vs single blade thing. The returns on simple single blades amount to just about nothing, even though as a percentage the manufacturing costs are also just about nothing and in the end, the total markup may be a higher percentage than the cartridge will realize, the dollar amount of profit will not permit advertising and the other costs of maintaining growth in the business world. The dollar return is made even more when you factor in the larger number of actual cartridge users into the mix.

Gillette hit the nail on the head with his business model and the understanding that the real money was in making and selling the blades and not the razor. When he started to get some competition, he made subtle changes to maintain non-compatibility with the other offerings, or simply bought them out. He (or rather the company) also took advantage of the public's perception that time was important, and offered the superspeed razor. Sure it made changing the blades a little bit more safe, but the real catcher was with the notched bar making it a snap. It does not take all that much time to change a blade, but now there was an induced perception that before it did, and now it does not. The same with the canned goo. The writing was on the wall. My father had told me that many years ago, canned salmon was white in color, and that the pink salmon was uncommon, but then the pink salmon became popular, and one of the remaining companies that still offered the white salmon advertised "Our Salmon Guaranteed Not To Turn Pink" The sales of pink salmon almost came to a complete halt and it took some doing for the pink salmon sales to make a comeback. Now that is the only kind (pink) that I have ever seen. Folks perceive that proper wetshaving takes too much time, it really does not. And it gives one some peaceful time simply for oneself.

Will wetshaving survive? I think so. There is still money to be made, and most of the manufacturers are not in competition with the major players and as long as the population continues to rise, the number of quality product users can continue to rise along with it and still not threaten the "status quo" Just accept that some of your favorite items will go extinct (fine Gillette razors, Sweeds, etc.) but that there will always be something to replace them, some better, some not. And as much as individual variances influence the milage gained by those products new and old, some will not miss the loss of the "Sweeds" and other will fall in love with the new dorco blades.

As always, YMMV

Bob

 

[HoosierHacker]

I have one other friend that is into DE shaving. My roommate from college. Everyone else looks at me like I'm crazy. I'd like to say it is the shaving fascination, but I'm not so sure.

 

[moto]

Hi Moto.

This is an interesting thread. Thanks for inviting me to give my two cents.

I'd have to agree that wet shaving remains a small, niche market. Don't expect to see any mainstream advertising - it's far too expensive to try and convince the average guy that the cartridge razor he's been using for the past 10 years is flawed and that a DE or straight razor is the answer to all his problems. It's a revolution that's going to have to come from us, as passionate believers, preaching the advantages of DE shaving to the unconverted.

That said, a number of the big manufacturers in this sector are expanding their offerings, and sales of straight razors are booming (Dovo has an extraordinary nine month waiting list for some of their products) - so I think the market is showing healthy signs and is nowhere near saturation point.

I'd like to think that one day every guy will at least have a shaving brush and a quality shave cream or soap in their bathroom ... but I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Cheers,
Nathan.

Hi Nathan,

Thanks for coming and giving a retailers view on the trend of wetshaving.

9 month waiting on the Dovo's, wow.

I think if there were some more ads in mags, newspapers and online about the benifits of wetshaving it would grow. Word of mouth takes time.

When i see some pictures of guys wetshaving gear/lather posted on this site it looks quite nice and relaxing. if this was shown to more people i think they would also be impressed. picture it, a nice razor with soap/cream, a badger brush and aftershave next to the gillette fusion range, which looks more impressive? also the scent of some products and how that feels on and after the shave would also make them interested. the notion and picture that this is "luxury" but is cheaper and better could help. an example is we all like to look at luxury items be they clothes, cars, eg ferrari's mercs and bmw's, scents and perfumes but the price can be something else. however shaving, if we go by price and dollars the average joe will think gillettes fusion and 5 blade cartriges and goo is "luxury" but nothing could be further from the truth. it's like gillette is the car maker kia and tobs/adp/t&h are bmw but kia is considered the luxury/expensive and better car than bmw? wetshaving even at it's cheaper end is much more of a luxury. man, even tiger woods, roger federer and thiery henry couldn't make gillettes ads look and feel like luxury. so if one could market wetshaving as a luxury and compare the price/benifits to the public then gillette would tremble in it's boots. someone just has to put this up against that and let them decide. but no one is putting up this, only that. another market is the environment.

something that might be out there but shaving classes for the public. we have cooking classes so shaving classes might be a way to advertise and show guys how to lather, shave, groom and maybe even try products?

i also think that the internet will grow bigtime and when china and india grow and more people get the internet then there's more of a chance to find wetshaving. it's how i found this site when i wanted a better way, google it.
most of the people on this site never grew up with the internet so our generations never "lived" with computers and many older people still don't use them. the future generations will all have computers so the exposure will be much greater.

seinfeld said it best, we as humans are picking up dog crap so if the aliens finally come and invade our planet and say,"take me to your leader", who do you think they're gonna think is the leader?
people have been picking up gillettes crap for too long.:9898:

happy "luxury" shaving and enjoy,
moto

 

[Bertilak]

Dovo has an extraordinary nine month waiting list for some of their products

Might that be explained by any decrease in Dovo's skilled staffing?

 

[mparker762]

Somewhat. I generally hear the "9-month backorder" in relation to their straight razors, and they've got a problem with their trained grinders retiring and none of the younger guys are interested in the 5-year apprenticeship to specialize in something that may just be a passing fad. OTOH I've also heard that their production numbers are actually up. There aren't many old straight razor users left to die off, so I suspect the number of straight razor users is really on the increase in absolute numbers though probably not as a percentage of the population. And apparently Dovo has approached some SRP members in Germany about apprenticing with them (though AFAIK without success), so who knows...