Help with honing a Dovo
- Thread starter Rick1500
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- #42
Great pics JPO,
What do you use to get them, I would love to be able to do that. I have a feeling it's a little higher quality than my amazon usb coinscope (even though I do enjoy having it)
What did you use to make the BS slurry.
I'm wondering if the naniwa 3k superstone could be a big difference from the pro you have, this is the only naniwa I've dealt with.
What do you use to get them, I would love to be able to do that. I have a feeling it's a little higher quality than my amazon usb coinscope (even though I do enjoy having it)
What did you use to make the BS slurry.
I'm wondering if the naniwa 3k superstone could be a big difference from the pro you have, this is the only naniwa I've dealt with.
This is the microscope I use. You can take allot better photos if you connect it to a computer. I just plug it into my phone.
I just used a matching BS slurry stone on a freshly lapped stone (Atoma 1200)
I think the 3k superstone is a little slower, but should polish a little better then the pro stone.
This was just to prove a point. You don't need to go all the way to 8k or 12k before the BS.
Your 5k should be enough if you use it to it's full potential.
The most important factor here is how you manage your pressure.
I spent less then 5 minutes on the BS after the 3k.
If you are just using weight of the blade pressure you will be on this stone for a long time. Weight of the blade pressure is just for the final finish.
If I had an 5k or an 8k edge I would spend even less time.
I would not recommend spending money on a new microscope. A loupe at 10 to 15x is more then enough. That is what I use most of the time.
You don't need allot of slurry. Slurry density is in my opinion more important. If you use too much water on the stone it will not cut properly.
- Thread starter
- #44
ah, yah. That one's just a tad more than my coin scope, I love the clarity of it.I have a few loops from my watch hobby, but there's just something enjoyable about getting up close and intimate with a straight razor edge
That's why I can enjoy the inexpensive coin scope, it still gives me a much better idea of what's happening.
That's just me, many ppl have never even considered using one and of course do a fantastic job of honing.
I'm sure as time goes on and I finally get a consitent honing progression and the pics start looking the same I'll probably also just use a loop.
I didn't snap to the 3k to BS jump you made, thanks for showing me.
Today I'll try the dovo and I'll start on a Bengall that's next in line, it'll be good to have another one to compare the dovo to now that I'm taking lots of pics for now.
Good luck. Those Bengall razor have good steel that is quite easy to get a good edge on.
I have a few loops from my watch hobby, but there's just something enjoyable about getting up close and intimate with a straight razor edge
That's why I can enjoy the inexpensive coin scope, it still gives me a much better idea of what's happening.
That's just me, many ppl have never even considered using one and of course do a fantastic job of honing.
I'm sure as time goes on and I finally get a consitent honing progression and the pics start looking the same I'll probably also just use a loop.
I didn't snap to the 3k to BS jump you made, thanks for showing me.
Today I'll try the dovo and I'll start on a Bengall that's next in line, it'll be good to have another one to compare the dovo to now that I'm taking lots of pics for now.
What ever you use for magnification, the lighting is important. It also helps to use a background the gives good contrast.
The bottom line is the Black Shadow is of unknow grit and size and has degraded the edge. Eliminate it from your progression. First learn to hone with a synthetic progression of known grit stones.
Hard to say what the dark spots are, possibly where the stone is polishing the bevel, but it is still chipping the edge. If that is the case, then your bevels are not flat, or the Black Shadow would polish the whole bevel. It may be just lighting.
It does shows that the 1k deep stria was not removed by the 5k, note how the deep stria end in a chip at the edge. Remove all the 1k stria with the 5k, no slurry.
You would be fine using a 325 DMT to lap all your stones, except the Ark. An Ark will quickly trash a Diamond plate.
On new stones make a pencil grid and remove the grid completely 4-5 times. When you can completely remove the grid in less than 10 laps, the stone is flat and smooth.
For an Ark do the same with 220 grit wet & dry. Mark a grid with a sharpie, the stone is flat and smooth when you can remove the grid in less than 10 laps. If not flat 60 grit loose Silicone Carbide will get you flat, sandpaper will take a long time and lots of paper. Once flat you can polish with 600 wet & dry.
“Of course I could be totally incorrect, I can see how the 8K slurry could reach in there and doing some polishing but I'm not sure how the oil on the Ark does it too.”
You keep posting about 8k slurry, but you do not have an 8k stone. Where are you getting 8k slurry?
You have the best selling, most popular stone in the world, 1/6k King use it, get an 8-12k synthetic and finish on the Ark. Naniwia Snow White, Fuji, 12k Super Stone, or Suehiro 10k, all will produce a near mirror, stria free finish, then final finish on the Ark for comfort. You will need to properly lap the Ark.
You are all over the map and making learning to hone way more complicated. The trick is to eliminate variables a simple known quanity, King 1k, 6k any good 8-12k and translucent ark will keep you shaving very well for a lifetime.
What you are experiencing is totally normal for a new honer, learning to hone on-line, is drinking from a fire hose. Pick one method and follow it.
Hard to say what the dark spots are, possibly where the stone is polishing the bevel, but it is still chipping the edge. If that is the case, then your bevels are not flat, or the Black Shadow would polish the whole bevel. It may be just lighting.
It does shows that the 1k deep stria was not removed by the 5k, note how the deep stria end in a chip at the edge. Remove all the 1k stria with the 5k, no slurry.
You would be fine using a 325 DMT to lap all your stones, except the Ark. An Ark will quickly trash a Diamond plate.
On new stones make a pencil grid and remove the grid completely 4-5 times. When you can completely remove the grid in less than 10 laps, the stone is flat and smooth.
For an Ark do the same with 220 grit wet & dry. Mark a grid with a sharpie, the stone is flat and smooth when you can remove the grid in less than 10 laps. If not flat 60 grit loose Silicone Carbide will get you flat, sandpaper will take a long time and lots of paper. Once flat you can polish with 600 wet & dry.
“Of course I could be totally incorrect, I can see how the 8K slurry could reach in there and doing some polishing but I'm not sure how the oil on the Ark does it too.”
You keep posting about 8k slurry, but you do not have an 8k stone. Where are you getting 8k slurry?
You have the best selling, most popular stone in the world, 1/6k King use it, get an 8-12k synthetic and finish on the Ark. Naniwia Snow White, Fuji, 12k Super Stone, or Suehiro 10k, all will produce a near mirror, stria free finish, then final finish on the Ark for comfort. You will need to properly lap the Ark.
You are all over the map and making learning to hone way more complicated. The trick is to eliminate variables a simple known quanity, King 1k, 6k any good 8-12k and translucent ark will keep you shaving very well for a lifetime.
What you are experiencing is totally normal for a new honer, learning to hone on-line, is drinking from a fire hose. Pick one method and follow it.
- Thread starter
- #47
Ah, that's where the synthetic 8k was catching attention.
It's like a magic trick, I knew what I was saying but nobody else did
details matter.
I had wanted to see about making some kind of slurry on the Rozsutec but didn't have a small stone to do it with so I bought a king japanese nagura 8k stone off of amazon.
It's like a magic trick, I knew what I was saying but nobody else did
details matter.I had wanted to see about making some kind of slurry on the Rozsutec but didn't have a small stone to do it with so I bought a king japanese nagura 8k stone off of amazon.
When learning to hone, definitely easy to have as many "knowns" as possible. I would cut out using slurry as well. I would go through the synthetics then finish on the ark until you get consistent results. After that you can experiment more with slurry and different stones.
Synthetic slurry does not break down like most natural stone slurry, Jnat, slates and coticules. While it will/can make a stone more aggressive, that synthetic slurry bangs against the edge and chips it.
The goal of razor honing is the edge, perfecting the edge for keenness and comfort.
There is no upside using synthetic slurry on a natural stone, if you want an 8k finish use a good 8k synthetic stone.
Many new honers fall prey to the cheap natural, magic stones, over the years there have been hundreds. Bottom line is all natural stones are made by nature, there was no quality control when they were made.
When some one claims that a natural stone is X grit, be very suspect. You can not grit rate a natural stone. You can say that a particular stone, your stone can finish at X grit, but that may change on the other side and certainly with another stone. You cannot say that for a whole group of stones.
You can with synthetics. All King 1k’s will perform the same, yours and mine.
There are some natural stones that are proven performers, but even they vary wildly, Jnats, Slates, Coticules, and even Arks.
The goal of razor honing is the edge, perfecting the edge for keenness and comfort.
There is no upside using synthetic slurry on a natural stone, if you want an 8k finish use a good 8k synthetic stone.
Many new honers fall prey to the cheap natural, magic stones, over the years there have been hundreds. Bottom line is all natural stones are made by nature, there was no quality control when they were made.
When some one claims that a natural stone is X grit, be very suspect. You can not grit rate a natural stone. You can say that a particular stone, your stone can finish at X grit, but that may change on the other side and certainly with another stone. You cannot say that for a whole group of stones.
You can with synthetics. All King 1k’s will perform the same, yours and mine.
There are some natural stones that are proven performers, but even they vary wildly, Jnats, Slates, Coticules, and even Arks.
Steve56
Ask me about shaving naked!
These are OK for deglazing, but the ones that I have, 2-3 of them, release ‘chunks’ into the slurry. If you’re seeing scratches etc off a hone used with this slurry, try re-honing without the King 8k slurry. The defects may not be from the hone.
To test a stone, for me it is a finisher, if it can improve a pristine 8k edge.
If it can not improve an 8k edge, what is the point?
I go to naturals, Jnat or Ark from a pristine, near mirror 10K Suehiro bevel. The natural is just for comfort, it does not take much work.
My usual progression is a King 1k, 6K, Suehiro 10k, finish on Jnat or Ark. I do have most all the stones from all the big-name makers… they all work.
Which is better Ford, Chevy, Honda or Toyota? They will all get you from LA to New York.
Below is a pretty pristine 8k edge, done by a new honer. It was the second razor he had honed. Google (My Second Try at Honing) for the whole thread. Lots of clear micrographs of bevels and edges. Razor was an eBay beater.
If you can make your bevels and edges look like his, you are well on your way to razor honing. It can be done. I think he was using Super Stones.
If it can not improve an 8k edge, what is the point?
I go to naturals, Jnat or Ark from a pristine, near mirror 10K Suehiro bevel. The natural is just for comfort, it does not take much work.
My usual progression is a King 1k, 6K, Suehiro 10k, finish on Jnat or Ark. I do have most all the stones from all the big-name makers… they all work.
Which is better Ford, Chevy, Honda or Toyota? They will all get you from LA to New York.
Below is a pretty pristine 8k edge, done by a new honer. It was the second razor he had honed. Google (My Second Try at Honing) for the whole thread. Lots of clear micrographs of bevels and edges. Razor was an eBay beater.
If you can make your bevels and edges look like his, you are well on your way to razor honing. It can be done. I think he was using Super Stones.
- Thread starter
- #52
Thanks Brad,
I've tried a few different combinations today on the dovo to see what left striations and what would remove them.
Do you get a stria free edge with the King 6K, I didn't so I'm wondering if I take the best it gave me and move forward or should I be seeing a mirror finish with little to no stria.
I tried the King 6k after doing a few strokes on the Cerax 5k to see what it would look like, it didn't improve the looks much.
So next I'll do your progression of the King 1k/6k, should the 6k have little to no stria.
What pressures do you use for the 6k.
I've tried a few different combinations today on the dovo to see what left striations and what would remove them.
Do you get a stria free edge with the King 6K, I didn't so I'm wondering if I take the best it gave me and move forward or should I be seeing a mirror finish with little to no stria.
I tried the King 6k after doing a few strokes on the Cerax 5k to see what it would look like, it didn't improve the looks much.
So next I'll do your progression of the King 1k/6k, should the 6k have little to no stria.
What pressures do you use for the 6k.
I'm just a beginning razor honer, but I've been sharpening knives and woodworking tools for decades.
I'm not a fan of honing to get a burr on razors, they are too hard to form a simple rolled up edge and the only way to get a burr is to use far too much pressure. Given you are honing hollow ground razors, it's quite possible to lift the edge up so you continually grind behind the apex and never actually set the bevel correctly with a clean apex.
It was a revelation for me to use very light pressure (on a Gold Dollar) and make laps until suddenly the edge started to bite into the stone -- and lo and behold, I had the beginnings of a clean apex. Took a while longer to get it all the way across and on both sides, not that much steel but it doesn't come off that fast under light pressure. No sparkles, just a flat surface with stria. Once the bevel was set, it didn't take long on the 6k and 8k stones to have the razor stick and feel like it was trying to dive into the stone.
I'm still tinkering with finishing stones, but I can shave off any of the ones I've tried. Still tuggy, and I don't try to shave with a straight on work days, but it's coming along. Interesingly, a mystery stone that is probably a fine India burnishes and gives me a decent shave with a Pakistani razor!
The edge doesn't need to look perfect, it needs to cut hair cleanly and with minimal effort, but the cleaner the apex the more likely it will shave well.
A King 6k will give some polish, but you will still see fine stria. An 8k will be more polished.
I'm not a fan of honing to get a burr on razors, they are too hard to form a simple rolled up edge and the only way to get a burr is to use far too much pressure. Given you are honing hollow ground razors, it's quite possible to lift the edge up so you continually grind behind the apex and never actually set the bevel correctly with a clean apex.
It was a revelation for me to use very light pressure (on a Gold Dollar) and make laps until suddenly the edge started to bite into the stone -- and lo and behold, I had the beginnings of a clean apex. Took a while longer to get it all the way across and on both sides, not that much steel but it doesn't come off that fast under light pressure. No sparkles, just a flat surface with stria. Once the bevel was set, it didn't take long on the 6k and 8k stones to have the razor stick and feel like it was trying to dive into the stone.
I'm still tinkering with finishing stones, but I can shave off any of the ones I've tried. Still tuggy, and I don't try to shave with a straight on work days, but it's coming along. Interesingly, a mystery stone that is probably a fine India burnishes and gives me a decent shave with a Pakistani razor!
The edge doesn't need to look perfect, it needs to cut hair cleanly and with minimal effort, but the cleaner the apex the more likely it will shave well.
A King 6k will give some polish, but you will still see fine stria. An 8k will be more polished.
- Thread starter
- #54
Thanks psfred,
I've been honing and shaving with straight razors for about a yr now and definitely still see myself as a newby.
It has been an experience to learn.
I'm very pleased with the smooth shaves I'm getting from my present rotation of about 6 vintage razors finishing with the Ark trans, and about 40 waiting to be cleaned and honed.
The Dovo really threw me off and thanks to all of you I feel I've learned more about honing. I'm definitely one that will try a dozen things trying to hit the target, i.e. I never thought about using oil on my sandstone Rozsutec but it came to me today and I'm very pleased with the way the edge looks from it and it leads well into the black shadow.
I've finished the Dovo and instead of today, tomorrow will be the shave test on it.
With all the help here I've come up with the flollowing progression until I can add some stones to my stable;
King 1k/6k
Rozsutec with oil
Black Shadow with oil
Finish with the Ark Translucent with oil.
I've enjoyed using the burr method for setting the bevel, the burr is a nice indicator for me that the bevel is getting set but I'm always open to a different way of doing things.
You're rotating the laps correct? One side to the other right? Untill you feel it starting to bite, is this right?
I didn't get a mirror finish from the King 6k but I was pleased with how it finished on the Ark as far as looks go, the shave test will be the true indcator.
I've been honing and shaving with straight razors for about a yr now and definitely still see myself as a newby.
It has been an experience to learn.
I'm very pleased with the smooth shaves I'm getting from my present rotation of about 6 vintage razors finishing with the Ark trans, and about 40 waiting to be cleaned and honed.
The Dovo really threw me off and thanks to all of you I feel I've learned more about honing. I'm definitely one that will try a dozen things trying to hit the target, i.e. I never thought about using oil on my sandstone Rozsutec but it came to me today and I'm very pleased with the way the edge looks from it and it leads well into the black shadow.
I've finished the Dovo and instead of today, tomorrow will be the shave test on it.
With all the help here I've come up with the flollowing progression until I can add some stones to my stable;
King 1k/6k
Rozsutec with oil
Black Shadow with oil
Finish with the Ark Translucent with oil.
I've enjoyed using the burr method for setting the bevel, the burr is a nice indicator for me that the bevel is getting set but I'm always open to a different way of doing things.
You're rotating the laps correct? One side to the other right? Untill you feel it starting to bite, is this right?
I didn't get a mirror finish from the King 6k but I was pleased with how it finished on the Ark as far as looks go, the shave test will be the true indcator.
Yes, one side then the other. Very light pressure with a little rotation to keep the bevel getting more than the spine.
At least on my Bester 1200 there is a noticeable increase in drag when the edge is in contact with the stone, and that continues with a King 6k and 8k. This is true of knives, plane blades, chisels, and razors. Also happens on my King Deluxe 300, but I don't use that one with razors. The sound changes too.
I look at it as sneaking up on the apex -- raising a burr on very hard steel is risking fractures at the apex to my mind, it's not at all like knife steel. You just end up doing a lot more work to fix a problem you should be avoiding in the first place.
Stainless razors are a different story, I've not risked the one I have until I figure out cheap carbon steel ones.
You won't get a mirror finish on a 6k, not even an 8k. Bright, but not mirror.
At least on my Bester 1200 there is a noticeable increase in drag when the edge is in contact with the stone, and that continues with a King 6k and 8k. This is true of knives, plane blades, chisels, and razors. Also happens on my King Deluxe 300, but I don't use that one with razors. The sound changes too.
I look at it as sneaking up on the apex -- raising a burr on very hard steel is risking fractures at the apex to my mind, it's not at all like knife steel. You just end up doing a lot more work to fix a problem you should be avoiding in the first place.
Stainless razors are a different story, I've not risked the one I have until I figure out cheap carbon steel ones.
You won't get a mirror finish on a 6k, not even an 8k. Bright, but not mirror.
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- Thread starter
- #56
No mirror finish, then I should be good to go.
Here's the latest pics;
Cerax 1k using the burr method
The edge isn't professional but I can say it has resulted in good smooth shaves which I've had the priveledge of comparing to edges that are definitely not shaveable and compared to my Rigarazor edge.
Here's the latest pics;
Cerax 1k using the burr method
The edge isn't professional but I can say it has resulted in good smooth shaves which I've had the priveledge of comparing to edges that are definitely not shaveable and compared to my Rigarazor edge.
- Thread starter
- #57
Next is the Cerax 5k (looks like I posted two of the 5K)
and Rozsutec with oil
I lost my latest Black Shadow and Ark trans pics while moving them
But tomorrows shave test is the main thing anyway.
and Rozsutec with oil
I lost my latest Black Shadow and Ark trans pics while moving them
But tomorrows shave test is the main thing anyway.
Are you using the Cerax 5k with slurry, or is this stone releasing allot of binder/abrasive particles?
I am not suggesting you need to buy an 8k stone. However, it can make you honing progression allot easier.
The final edge is an Arkansas edge.
The difference in edge width is small. The apex condition makes a big difference to the way they shave.
Both the BS and the Arkansas edge will shave ME better then the 8k edge, but the 8k edge looks much nicer.
8k Naniwa Snow white
Black shadow with slurry
Arkansas edge after BS. Mirror edge to the naked eye.
I am not suggesting you need to buy an 8k stone. However, it can make you honing progression allot easier.
The final edge is an Arkansas edge.
The difference in edge width is small. The apex condition makes a big difference to the way they shave.
Both the BS and the Arkansas edge will shave ME better then the 8k edge, but the 8k edge looks much nicer.
8k Naniwa Snow white
Black shadow with slurry
Arkansas edge after BS. Mirror edge to the naked eye.
Try it without raising a burr, and hone on the 5k without any slurry until you erase the 1k stria at the edge -- they are still present just behind the apex.
If you are raising slurry while honing, you are likely using too much pressure. All those stones are aluminum oxide in binder, if there is loose grit while honing it will leave scratches as they roll under the blade, and also put tiny dents in the apex. Japanese stones, which are silcate, have "grit" that crumbles and become much smaller particles as you hone, aluminum oxide grit will just roll around on top.
But when all is said and done, if the razor shaves you well, it's all good.
If you are raising slurry while honing, you are likely using too much pressure. All those stones are aluminum oxide in binder, if there is loose grit while honing it will leave scratches as they roll under the blade, and also put tiny dents in the apex. Japanese stones, which are silcate, have "grit" that crumbles and become much smaller particles as you hone, aluminum oxide grit will just roll around on top.
But when all is said and done, if the razor shaves you well, it's all good.
- Thread starter
- #60
JPO,
I stopped using a slurry on the 5k after it was suggested doing so.
Good pics on the edge differences, not what I would have expected, especially after experiencing how much I've enjoyed adding the Ark to my progression.
Today I'm going to hone a Bengall and I believe I'll go with the King 1k/6k combo and leave out both of my Cerax stones.
psfred,
I used various pressures to see how they would do so I agree with what you're seeing and I'll keep that in mind, good information on the stones.
I'll try your bevel setting today in place of the burr method.
It's also interesting to note how the scratches can look so different from the microscopes, wonder how much better or worse mine would look with the higher quality scope.
Really makes you appreciate the high quality pics that show little to no scratches at all.
I stopped using a slurry on the 5k after it was suggested doing so.
Good pics on the edge differences, not what I would have expected, especially after experiencing how much I've enjoyed adding the Ark to my progression.
Today I'm going to hone a Bengall and I believe I'll go with the King 1k/6k combo and leave out both of my Cerax stones.
psfred,
I used various pressures to see how they would do so I agree with what you're seeing and I'll keep that in mind, good information on the stones.
I'll try your bevel setting today in place of the burr method.
It's also interesting to note how the scratches can look so different from the microscopes, wonder how much better or worse mine would look with the higher quality scope.
Really makes you appreciate the high quality pics that show little to no scratches at all.
