Help with honing a Dovo

[marv]

marv,
What you say about the naniwa 3K is why I was surprised at the amount of stria it created compared to the cerex 5K. Am I using it incorrectly as far as slurry, water etc..?
Some say the Roszutec can be close to the 6 - 8K range.
I must have mis written about adding an 8K synthetic, the only stones I have (not necessarily using)

King 1K/6K combo
Cerex 1K and 5K
Naniwa 3K
Belgium blue
Roszutec
Black shadow
Arkansas translucent

I also have a shapton 16K but found out it does chip the edge as others say it will.

The Cerax stone you're using is the same stone as Rika 5k. Suehiro is a strange company. The stones they sell in the 5k line, such as Rika 5K, Cerax 5k, New Cerax 5k, Suehiro 5000 are all the same stone. It works at 3000 grit level. They're soft stones. Just like other soaking stones. Automatic slurry forms quickly on the surface. It can be used to jump to a Jnat, but I don't think you're at a good enough point in your progression to jump to Translucent Arkansas. There're Rozsutecs that work at 8K level, but in general they're coarser stones. They are comparable to 5-6k synthetic stones. (generally) I don't think King 6000 will solve your problem either. But I think you will get better results from Cerax. You should try...

I'm renewing my suggestion that I wrote in my previous comment. 8K Naniwa SS makes your job much easier.

 

[JPO]

It's also interesting to note how the scratches can look so different from the microscopes, wonder how much better or worse mine would look with the higher quality scope.
Really makes you appreciate the high quality pics that show little to no scratches at all.

These images can also tell a slightly different story about the use of magnification. At this refinement level the images can't really tell you much. You need to test shave the edge.
They will all work for someone depending on their preferences. The 8k edge is probably smooth enough, but will most likely need to be a little sharper for most people.
The BS edge is typically something i would like. More then sharp enough, and smooth.
The Arkansas edge will be more then sharp enough, but might have a feel to it that not everyone will like.

Going from the 8k to the Arkansas stone without the BS would create a different edge.

Trial and error. I can't tell just be looking at a photo.

If you use magnification you need to figure out what your images are telling you. I have only shaved with what is see using my microscope.

 

[Rick1500]

Finally!
The dovo did great!
Thanks to all of you for helping me get this one into the rotation, especially since it was a gift from a friend.

It's nice to learn from all your experiences, pointing out my bevel calculation mistake will save me tons of time in the future, I know it would have taken me a long time to catch that one since I usually only check any I have trouble with or I'm curious about.

Key take aways on the Barbosa;

Still not a fan of the square tip style
The shave was great, not as smooth as my vintage razors but 100% a keeper
The short length of the Barbarosa made my difficult areas much easier to shave, i.e. chin and parts of my neck
I like the olive tree wood scales

 

[Rick1500]

Thanks marv, the cerax 3k grit level makes sense now and yes it made its own slurry very quickly.
I've got that 8k on the list to get now.

Today's Bengall hone will see how the King combo 1k/6k, Rozsutec with oil, and then the BS and Ark with oil.

The Bengall after that one will get the Cerax 1k, the Belgium blue with oil, then the same Rozsutec, BS and Ark.

JPO,
I didn't care for the edge I was getting from the BS, I'm sure it was just my honing.
When I added the Ark after the BS it was a big improvement in shave comfort, the edge cuts well, great feedback, while giving me that good feeling I'm not about to cut myself with the slightest off angle.

When I eventually get the 8k in I'll see what happens by skipping the BS.

I can definitely agree with you on the magnification, that's one of the things I learned through this.

 

[JPO]

When I eventually get the 8k in I'll see what happens by skipping the BS.

The BH stone I have does not seem to drive the edge allot forward compared to an 8k edge.
I don't have allot of experience with Arkansas stones either. My stone is a Black translucent. It might not be a good stone at all. It seems to work better with German soft steel then with hard French steel.

 

[Rick1500]

I just bought my Ark translucent recently, it's the first one for me.

I don't have any french or spanish razors yet, I do plan on getting some. I just bought a couple of Russian razors and the one I've honed shaves extremely well, I'd like to get a couple more of those also.

All the rest I have are mostly German or English and I'm pleased with their edges, the ones I use or have used anyway

Just finished the Bengall on the King 1k. I was trying psfred's bevel setting but it was taking me forever to get anywhere, so I went back to the burr method

Then..... I figured out why the 1k felt so different than before and was taking so long...... I didn't use a slurry it felt like I was on the 6k side without it.
So I'll do his bevel setting on the next one which is also a Bengall but I'll be using the Cerax this next time followed by the Belgium blue just for comparison sake.

 

[psfred]

If you want to use slurry on a King 1k you need to raise it with a nagura of some sort, otherwise the stone will be out of flat (which is why I don't use my much, too soft).

It WILL take longer to get a clean apex without a burr, but that's the point here -- if you didn't get a clean apex rapidly on a slurry free King 1k, the bevel isn't flat or the stone isn't flat. Shouldn't take more that a dozen laps to get to the apex at light pressure, if you felt you needed a lot more you probably have a convex bevel.

Just for kicks I may dig out my King 1k and see what it does with razors. It is currently holding up King Deluxe 300 so it's easier to use.

 

[Rick1500]

The stone is definitely flat psfred. I lap each stone prior to honing so that it is never an issue.
I don't believe I've ever used the King 1k side without a slurry and maybe the smoothness I felt on it was normal, dunno.
But as soon as I created a slurry it started doing its job easily.

I usually use the stone that came with my Cerax 1k to create my bevel slurries and or leave a little slurry on the stone from the dmt plate when I lap it.

I can't say I've heard of being able to create a bevel using light strokes unless the bevel was already very close, but maybe I haven't noticed ppl mention it before.
Unless I don't remember every bevel I've set has taken a minimum of about 20 strokes with firm pressure.

This one was taking incredibly long to do, about 3 times longer than the burr method and I still didn't get close to being able to cut a hair at all on my leg to test it.
I checked the razor with a marker and was pleased with the blade flatness, only a tiny, tiny part on the end but it still caught the edge of the bevel.
So, my razor was good, the stone was flat, I even applied pressure to set the bevel, so something was going on with the stone, but as soon as I slurried it came around quickly.

As soon as I finish this one up on the BS and Ark I'll do what you say but on the Cerax 1k, I've used it the most and know how it performs.

 

[psfred]

Having it rough just below the apex confirms for me that using slurry and pressure is giving you a convex bevel. Keep going with light pressure and no slurry, or at most a tiny bit. King stones are very muddy, and if you raise a slurry while honing you are actually dishing the stone -- I know, this is why I don't use them for chisels and plane blades.

They are not fast without slurry, but for razors you want a clean, flat bevel ending in a clear apex. It may take 100 laps or more, razor steel is very hard and abrades slowly. You will feel it when the apex is touching the stone surface, the drag from honing increases considerably. You will not feel that with slurry.

 

[Rick1500]

I'll do that on this next one with the Cerax psfred,
Then I'll try the king 1k again after that.

I had gotten up to 175 strokes on both sides and still wasn't making progress so I went back to the burr.

It'll be interesting to see the differences between the two since I'm only familiar with the burr method.

I'm always up for ways to improve the edge.

 

[JPO]

I'll do that on this next one with the Cerax psfred,
Then I'll try the king 1k again after that.

I had gotten up to 175 strokes on both sides and still wasn't making progress so I went back to the burr.

It'll be interesting to see the differences between the two since I'm only familiar with the burr method.

I'm always up for ways to improve the edge.

If you are using the "burr" method on a soft 1k stone with slurry, you would really need to do allot of things wrong to even be able to generate at burr on a straight razor. I think it would be difficult even on a clean stone this coarse and soft.
The soft surface and the slurry should be constantly renewing the apex.
It sounds like you are trying to hone the razor like a knife, using too much pressure.
It does not take much pressure on some razors to lift the apex off the stone.

 

[Rick1500]

It's easy to set a bevel with the burr method, I've done it successfully many times.

All my razors shave well, no problems.
It can take 20 to 100 laps on each side depending on the condition of the razor.
Do a few strokes, feel for the burr, then repeat on the other side once the burr is felt.

Then start reducing the strokes down to 1 on each side.
Then 20 light alternating strokes to finish.
Never had any issues ( till the dovo showed up, but it's all good now)
Easily cuts tomatoe skin or leg hair with just the slightest pressure.
I usually don't try a shave with it but I believe I'll start trying a shave test on them.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

You will be just fine with the King 1k, if you want slurry use the slurry from the DMT as you have. You will not dish the King or damage the razor/bevel.

If you do use synthetic slurry to make a stone more aggressive, you will need to rinse the stone, quick lap off any swarf and do a few light finish laps without slurry, to refine the bevels and cut a new chip free edge.

You should do your finish laps on a clean stone if you want to maximize performance.

The King stones are a much maligned stone, but are the most popular stones world wide and used by some of the best furniture makers with amazing results, for “Junk Mud stones”.

Take a look at some of David Charlesworth’s honing videos. He honed chisels and plane blades to a higher level of meticulous precision than most folks here hone razor to. Compare his bevels to those posted here of razors.

He used the King stones for years for his work and a brace of stones to teach furniture making. He would glue thin 800 and 1k stones together and use the stone completely, every inch.

Bottom line to perfect your honing, pay attention to the details, and perfect each stone in the progression. Don’t overthink the stones, honing is in the hands not the stones.

If making a burr is working for you, rock on. You will refine your technique the more you hone, a year from now you will look back on the edges you are producing today and shake your head…

 

[Rick1500]

Brad,
I agree, I've never had a problem with dishing on any of the stones I use.
I do my slurries like you say, water down as I go then near the end I clean it off and use only water, light laps.

This has been a good thread for me, picked up lots of knowledge on honing and on stones

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

One quick, dirt cheap tip that many guys I have taught to hone in person have learned a lot from is, ink the bevels. If you use colored ink you can see easily with the naked eye what is happening on the bevel and edge. Ink is cheap, use it.

Years ago I bought a pair of boxed Ivory scaled Pindor razors from an old guy who was on the forums back in the day.

He told me the razors were shave ready, and he had set the bevels on a worn Harbor Freight diamond plate, finished on a barber hone and stropped well with an old belt.

They shaved well, very well. It’s not the stones…

 

[psfred]

Dug out my King 1k from the mud in my sharpening tray and cleaned it up and got it mostly flat. Took maybe 20 laps to finish setting a bevel on a Gold Dollar that was close but not quite apexed, lots of black swarf but no stone particles.

No slurry, cuts pretty fast, and the scratch pattern looked fine. Took a while to clear it on a 6k stone, but after an 8k it's ready for finishing.

These stones are aluminum oxide in clay binder, they should cut very quickly. Allowing thick mud to pile up is likely to set your edge back and convex the bevel -- the particles rub free from the stone but they do not crush and become finer like Jnat silicate stones

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

One of the beauties of honing a straight razor is you can tailor a razor’s edge to your face and beard, by using stones that work best for you. Which brand of1k you set a bevel on, really does not matter. No-one is shaving off a 1k.

There are No Rules, what ever it takes to get you to an edge that work for you. There are many roads to Rome…

If you do not like King stones, no sweat, find a stone that works for you. But just because a stone does not work for you, does not mean that it will not work for someone else.

Take a look at the BST, every stone that is for sale is there because it did not work for the owner, no-one ever sells their best performing stone.

I have bought a few stones from the BST, they all work, one an Iromono Kiita, is probably the best Jnat finisher I have. It is certainly my go-to stone, when I have a “problem” razor.

I don’t like peas, funny, I love split pea soup. Does anybody care?

 

[Rick1500]

I care Brad

See, it's like they say, there's always somebody out there

 

[Frank Shaves]

It was a revelation for me to use very light pressure (on a Gold Dollar) and make laps until suddenly the edge started to bite into the stone -- and lo and behold, I had the beginnings of a clean apex. Took a while longer to get it all the way across and on both sides, not that much steel but it doesn't come off that fast under light pressure. No sparkles, just a flat surface with stria. Once the bevel was set, it didn't take long on the 6k and 8k stones to have the razor stick and feel like it was trying to dive into the stone.

Good observation - the bit about the edge biting/catching and riding the stone with little to no pressure!