Greaseless Compound Nightmare

[ghwatson]

Smaller diameter wheels move more slowly. I used to use 4" wheels to slow things down. At 3k rpm, a 6" wheel gives you 79 ft/s. At the same rpm, a 4" wheel gives you 52 ft/s.

If the wheel is all pressed down flat, I'd rake it. I can't see or handle your gear so I don't know what's what on your end. But I always make sure the wheel is 'fluffed'. That's how I kept the abrasive even on the surface.

I would not expect you would need all that much torque or pressure to get the product on the wheel, it should pretty much just go on. So I don't know if your small buffer is causing any issues. Maybe it is the source of the issue, maybe not though. By your description, the abrasive paste is coming off and flying around. The issue seems to be that it is not adhering to the wheel. I would suppose that if the machine can make the abrasive spray around the room then the abrasive should also be able to stick on the wheel. But maybe not - without having the set up here I can't judge.

I never had to use a lot of pressure/friction to get the abrasive to 'stick' though. Some pressure, yes - but not a lot. With my products and set up I would apply during 'wind down' after turning the motor off actually, so any serious pressure would stop the wheel. When buffing, I would use some pressure when taking out pits and rust so maybe a small jewelers buffer isn't up to the task....that is something to consider for sure.

I am sure that from brand to brand there are differences in these products, but they should all basically go on the same if they are fresh and all other parts of the equation are on-point. Maybe some apply easier than others. I don't know. The Caswell stuff applied easily, have not tried other brands.

I would say the best course of action is to call the vendor/manufacturer and tell them what's going on. Your abrasive might be 'out of date' or something along those lines. What you are describing sounds like what I had to deal with when the abrasive got old...or cold or both. I would have to cut back the tube a good bit until the surface felt tacky. And that surface didn't stay usable very long, I had to wrap it in plastic right away. When it got hard/dry the stuff would spray. You may be experiencing the same sort of situation. I know you just bought the stuff but it's age starts from day of manufacture and maybe it's been sitting around on a shelf too long.

Hi Gamma,

That's really good advice thank you. I've raked the wheels, and tried the start and stop method, and after maybe 50 presses it eventually started to stick and I managed to get a modest amount on the wheel. Left it overnight to fully dry. Was able to buff for about 5-10 minutes before the coating was pretty much gone.

If I just turn on the wheel and press the compound in lightly, or with some pressure, it just covers everything around the wheel in a fine powder of the compound and nothing sticks to the wheel. So definitely can't do it like Brad does in that video.

I've ordered a new machine, 500w and 8" wheels. Also ordered a new batch of Caswell compound from the US to see if that behaves any different. Although I don't think the Lea Sateen stuff I'm using is old because it's rubbery, almost spongy, so definitely not dried out.

Managed to get the razor to 320 grit.. just need to do 400 and 600 then it'll finally be time for the wax compounds, So close, I'll get that mirror finish eventually.

 

[ghwatson]

I used 4-inch wheels on a 1700 rpm buffer, 6” wheel spins too fast.

Buy quality sewn cotton wheels, invest in a good 2 hand wooden handle rake with replaceable steel teeth. I buy all my buffing supplies from Castwell’s Polishing Supply.

BTW, I used 3 wheels for each compound, but in the end used 600 grit most.

Rake new wheels to fluff and allow the compound to grab on to the fibers of a spinning wheel. After raking, trim the wheel of any loose fibers. I bought inexpensive gardening shears to trim loose fibers loaded with compound, they will dull a pair of good shears. If you do not trim long loose fibers they become whips that will mar a finish and cause you more work.

I put my buffer on a piece of cardboard on a bench and attached a large piece of cardboard to the wall as a back stop. Greaseless will splatter everywhere, you just have to accept that.

I made a splatter guard box from a cereal box with slots cut into it for the shaft so that only the front of the wheel is exposed, and should it get caught it is just thin cardboard, used for loading only.

I start the buffer and turn it off before it gets to full speed and touch the tube of compound to the wheel. The trick is to build up the compound thickness allowing a few minutes for it to dry hard on the wheel. Once I have touched the tube of compound to the wheel 2 or 3 times, remove the wheel and load another until you have all 3 loaded. Allow to air dry hard.



Each time you can add more compound a little at a time, probably 3-4 cycles to completely cover a wheel. You want 3 wheels so as you use a wheel you can reload it and switch to a fully loaded wheel while the other is drying, 3 wheels is a good number for a rotation allowing enough time to dry.

Do not let your compound dry out, it should be wet and sticky. Cut the plastic rapper and peel it down do not cut it off. Cover the compound when not in use and store in a plastic bag in air tight container, Tupperware.

If it dries out put a wet paper towel in the plastic bag and wait a day or so until it is sticky again.

You will learn how to buff and conserve the compound on your wheel avoid hard corners as that will flake off hardened compound quickly. After first load the wheels will accept compound easier. Do not be surprised if new wheels will not fully cover. After using it gets better.

Prepping a razor will also help, cut/scrape off as much rust as possible with an old chisel and single edge razor blade or Stanley utility box cutter blade, (make a wood handle for the Stanley, for razor blade I buy plastic handles. The more rust you remove the easier polishing will be.

Like I said 600 was almost the only grit I used, until I found 6-inch 220 grit, red 3M Radial Bristle Disc. If you have 3 wheels in various loading of grit from full to almost completely worn grit, you can have a progression of polishing power. They are pricy but cut faster and much less messy than Greasless.

From a lightly loaded wheel you can go to a sewn 6-inch spiral wheel loaded with Green Stainless compound and get a decent polish, (there is a learning curve) and finish polish with a loose unsewn wheel with white compound, red rouge, Pink Scratchless. Fabuluster, and or Zam.

If you want a “Real” Sheffield black mirror polish, that is a whole other kettle of fish, that start with hand sanding, lots of hand sanding to preserve the sharp detail and crisp lines and a deep liquid mirror polish. Lots of old posts on mirror finish, on old knife sites. Search Sheffield Black mirror polish.

Mike Carter and Nick Wheeler have some good videos on true mirror polishing knives.

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Hi Brad, that cereal box idea is genius. You're also the first person I've read that talks about greaseless compounds making a mess and that you just have to deal with it. I was thinking something was going very wrong.

I wasn't cutting the strands, and had no idea they could cause damage. A wheel getting easier to load each time makes so much sense, I've been using brand new unraked wheels!

Will definitely follow the advice for loading the wheels. Have purchased a couple of very cheap (and very rusty) Sheffield razors to practice with. Will upload the before and after photos.

Thank you so much for taking the time to write that reply, it's exactly the information I've been searching for and explains so much of what I've been experiencing.

And apologies for being such as noob, I'm right and the beginning of this journey.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

The big thing for me was controlling the dampness of the compound, especially with this heat we are having in California right now. A stick can dry out in a day.

If it dries out just a bit it will not stick to the wheel, if you get it too wet it just melts. The paper towel in a zip loc bag works well, you will learn how much.

The other thing is the grits, if you go too low to start you will spend a lot of time getting the scratches out with higher grits.

Start with 600 and like I said before I had 3 wheels so, 3 different loading of 600 girt, a fully loaded wheel, half loaded and barely loaded wheel, each will produce its own finish.

600 will handle most razors except the most badly pitted razors. Start at 600 and decide if you need to drop down in grit, knowing it will mean a lot more time on the buffer.

Do all your flat work first and the edges last, this will preserve the sharp lines and the compound on the wheel.

From a lightly loaded 600 wheel you can go to greased compounds, I like Green Stainless to start the bright polish.

 

[Gamma]

Hi Gamma,

That's really good advice thank you. I've raked the wheels, and tried the start and stop method, and after maybe 50 presses it eventually started to stick and I managed to get a modest amount on the wheel. Left it overnight to fully dry. Was able to buff for about 5-10 minutes before the coating was pretty much gone.

If I just turn on the wheel and press the compound in lightly, or with some pressure, it just covers everything around the wheel in a fine powder of the compound and nothing sticks to the wheel. So definitely can't do it like Brad does in that video.

I've ordered a new machine, 500w and 8" wheels. Also ordered a new batch of Caswell compound from the US to see if that behaves any different. Although I don't think the Lea Sateen stuff I'm using is old because it's rubbery, almost spongy, so definitely not dried out.

Managed to get the razor to 320 grit.. just need to do 400 and 600 then it'll finally be time for the wax compounds, So close, I'll get that mirror finish eventually.

If its gummy, that's good but it isn't a lock that the product is still 'fresh'. Checking with the mfgr might shed light on the subject. Doing that is just about always the last thing on anyone's bucket list though, for some reason. Lol... But people in forums who have not used your specific compound with your exact wheel/buffer can only guess.
Greaseless is easy to use, but some will make it seem like a high art. I think it's an ego thing, they'll spend days telling you how to do it their way. For sure though, it definitely takes some practice getting used to application and use. My rule was 'less is more' - always had a minimum on the wheel. Frequent recharging with lower grits was the norm.

I haven't touched the stuff in about 10 years - got away from it because I don't like the look it leaves. The crisp lines of a blade's profile always get softened to where it looks almost melted. The ease of getting black spit and pitting out is enticing though. Even so, for me it was better to do it by hand. I'm not into the mirror polish look, a bit more than matte is good for me. Patina is a good thing IMO. Some guys like shiny shiny though. Horses for courses, they say.

 

[ghwatson]

So the Caswell compound arrived. Raked the wheels. Unfortunately it does the same thing as the Sateen stuff. The image is 320 grit on the left with 6” wheel, and 400 grit on the right in 8” wheel. Did the start and stop method. You can see that 90% of the compound ends up below or on the wall as powder.

 

[Gamma]

Did you contact Caswell or the other mfgr. for assistance? Caswell used to have a good service center.

I can't troubleshoot the situation because I'm not there and cant touch any of your gear so I can't tell what's going on. It does seem that you have a lot of compound on that wheel.
Maybe try flipping the wheel over... mark them first.

My grinder ran 5000 sfpm with 6" wheels, had no issues like yours. It does take some practice to get the process down though, little bit of compound at a time, let it dry, reapply some more. Takes a bit of time for the stuff to dry sometimes. The glue stick helped when I first started out with it.

 

[ghwatson]

Did you contact Caswell or the other mfgr. for assistance? Caswell used to have a good service center.

I can't troubleshoot the situation because I'm not there and cant touch any of your gear so I can't tell what's going on. It does seem that you have a lot of compound on that wheel.
Maybe try flipping the wheel over... mark them first.

My grinder ran 5000 sfpm with 6" wheels, had no issues like yours. It does take some practice to get the process down though, little bit of compound at a time, let it dry, reapply some more. Takes a bit of time for the stuff to dry sometimes. The glue stick helped when I first started out with it.

I contacted Moleroda but they just sent a copy and paste block of vague advice that didn’t my help, basically just said it should work. Tried contacting Caswell, created two support tickets, but they don’t respond.

I tried the Lea glue stick, blackjack I think it’s called. That does exactly the same thing, possibly even a little worse, seems even harden to get it on the wheel.

Could it be a temperature thing? It’s pretty cold in the garage.

Just wish there was a video of someone applying it to fresh wheels so I can see if I’m doing something wrong.

 

[Gamma]

Just wish there was a video of someone applying it

What you would see is someone touching the open face of compound on the wheel. Literally the same as applying any other compound to a wheel. There is no magic. The only difference is that greaseless has to 'set', or dry. Heavy users will use two wheels per grit, one will have fresh compound that is drying.

Could it be a temperature thing? It’s pretty cold in the garage.

Yes. Temperature is a key factor with the abrasive and the glue stick.
To apply, the product and the wheels must be very warm. Greaseless is a combination of abrasive and a type of glue, it has to be warm all the way through to start and it has to get hot via friction to apply. If the compound is cold, it literally cannot stick. A cold wheel could interfere too I think. And if your sfpm isn't high enough, the friction won't cause enough heat to help.
I used the stuff outside, in the summer, usually around 80 deg F. I stored the compound in the fridge, but took it out a day before to use. I put it outside a few hours to get the temp through and through. Between that and the 5000 sfpm things worked fine.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

You have to trim all the threads from the wheel. The coverage you have in your photos looks about right for the first few applications. When using greaseless you are constantly applying new compound and allowing wheels to dry. How long it lasts depends on your polishing technique, you can strip all the compound off a wheel by using too much pressure on a corner, do all your flat work first.

Do you have the 2 handed rake? Raking the wheels aggressively will help the compound stick. Using, raking and trimming the wheels will break in the wheels and make applying compound easier. Your wheels are not broken in yet.

Never had any improvement with the glue, just used the compound from the stick on a well raked wheel.

Is your compound sticky to the touch? If not let it hydrate with a damp paper towel in an airtight container.

The age of the greaseless does not matter as long as it is hydrated, I have compound that is 10 years old that I use the other day and it worked just fine.

If your compound is not wet and sticky, it will not stick to the wheel. When not in use, wrap the end of the greaseless compound with the plastic wrapper and store in an airtight container, it can dry out quickly and can take a day or over night to rehydrate.

What happens when you use the wheel in the photo, it should abrade steel?