Greaseless Compound Nightmare

[ghwatson]

Howdy,

I’m very new to the expensive, often frustrating, but ultimately rewarding straight razor restoration hobby.

So far, I’ve made lots of mistakes and learned a lot, and I’m trying to buff a razor to a mirror finish. I’m confident with the process, moving up through grits. However, I’m having an absolute nightmare trying to load up the buffing wheels with the greaseless compounds (satene). When I press the compound to the wheel, it just gets flung everywhere, all over the garage, all over me, but barely anything sticks to the wheel. I’ve tried the start and stop method, heating the compound with a hot air gun, and tried the compound glue, but that does exactly the same thing. I’m using standard 6” white stitched wheels, and running the machine at its lowest 1700rpm.

What am I doing wrong? Am I using the wrong type of wheel, is the small 6” wheel turning too fast? Is there a trick to it?

Any help would be greatly appreciated. I’ve sure if I can square this but away then I can crack on and complete this project.

 

[alpster]

Greaseless compounds have a very short shelf life. They can get hard and unusable in short order. If it dries out you should toss it. I use wax based buffing compounds. they work much better and are easier to manage.

 

[PLANofMAN]

Have you considered using a leather wheel instead?

...and yes, your wheel speed is probably higher than you want.

 

[ghwatson]

Greaseless compounds have a very short shelf life. They can get hard and unusable in short order. If it dries out you should toss it. I use wax based buffing compounds. they work much better and are easier to manage.

Do they come in grits as low as 80, 120, 180, etc?

 

[ghwatson]

Have you considered using a leather wheel instead?

...and yes, your wheel speed is probably higher than you want.

A leather wheel? Didn’t even know that was a thing. Is there a decent amount of give in them like a cloth wheel?

Also, I bought the only buffing machine I could find with a variable speed, and set it to the lowest 1700 rpm. Can you recommend a machine that’ll spin slower than that?

Thanks for your help, it’s really appreciated.

 

[Gamma]

Are you using a sewn wheel?

 

[ghwatson]

Are you using a sewn wheel?

I am yes, white 6” sewn cloth wheel. It was recommended for the greaseless compound. I’m grinding away pitting in an old razor, starting with 80 grit, so the wheel needs some give to shape to the blade.

 

[Frank Shaves]

I bought one restored razor whose steel had lost its temper. I suspect that the razor was put on a buffing wheel that raised the temperature too high.

I have never used a buffing wheel with greaseless compound and cannot prove this. Just sharing what I think happened.

 

[Gamma]

I am yes, white 6” sewn cloth wheel. It was recommended for the greaseless compound. I’m grinding away pitting in an old razor, starting with 80 grit, so the wheel needs some give to shape to the blade.

I've done some work with greaseless, so that's why I asked. I have seen guys try to work with center sewn and it made a mess. Maybe your compound is old. Or maybe you could try Glutite.

 

[ghwatson]

I've done some work with greaseless, so that's why I asked. I have seen guys try to work with center sewn and it made a mess. Maybe your compound is old. Or maybe you could try Glutite.

The compounds are brand new, fresh out the packet. I also tried the no3 blackjack glue that’s supposed to make things easier, but that does the exact same thing, it doesn’t stick to wheel, just gets flung everywhere. So frustrating. I can’t find any videos on applying greaseless compound, no detailed online advice beyond the start and stop method, even the retailer who specialises in supplying polishing equipment can’t help. It’s bizarre. There’s one razor restoration video on YouTube where the chap uses these compounds, and he just presses it the wheel and it magically loads up in seconds. I’ve ordered the exact same Caswell conpound, but it’s the same. Sigh. Thanks for your help guys anyway, it’s appreciated, I’ll continue the quest to find someone that’s used then successfully.

 

[rbscebu]

A question @ghwatson. Why do you want to use a buffing wheel rather than do it by hand?

When I am restoring a razor, time spent doing it does not enter my thoughts. After all, it is normally something I only do once to a SR.

 

[Gamma]

The compounds are brand new, fresh out the packet. I also tried the no3 blackjack glue that’s supposed to make things easier, but that does the exact same thing, it doesn’t stick to wheel, just gets flung everywhere. So frustrating. I can’t find any videos on applying greaseless compound, no detailed online advice beyond the start and stop method, even the retailer who specialises in supplying polishing equipment can’t help. It’s bizarre. There’s one razor restoration video on YouTube where the chap uses these compounds, and he just presses it the wheel and it magically loads up in seconds. I’ve ordered the exact same Caswell conpound, but it’s the same. Sigh. Thanks for your help guys anyway, it’s appreciated, I’ll continue the quest to find someone that’s used then successfully.

I think the reason no one does a video on it is because it really is sort of a simple thing. You press the compound to the wheel, and it applies to the wheel. I've had grits from 60x up to, I think, 400x maybe and they all applied the same way. Works the same for all compounds really. The one video you saw seems to have shown exactly what happens normally. There's no secret sauce here, it goes on easily, usually.

If your wheels are properly raked, and the compound quality is good, temp is good, etc - then the stuff should apply to your wheel without issue. You don't need a lot on the wheel, just a bit.

I would call the vendor and tell them their product isn't applying properly. Maybe there is a batch number they can use to determine how old it is, when it was manufactured. The consistency of the compound is critical, without being able to touch it I can't advise though. Maybe try cutting it back an inch to see if you get a better response... I've had to do that several times, I found it to be pretty fussy stuff.

 

[Frank Shaves]

Here is a video from Brad:

 

[ghwatson]

A question @ghwatson. Why do you want to use a buffing wheel rather than do it by hand?

When I am restoring a razor, time spent doing it does not enter my thoughts. After all, it is normally something I only do once to a SR.

Hi rbscebu. I actually started with hand sandpaper, and watched a few videos on methods like wrapping it around a cork to get the right shape. After about 2 hours of sanding and seeing that I'd barely made a difference I'd lost the will to live. The razor had deep pitting where the rust had been removed. I'm sure it would have worked, but would have taken me days and days. After I saw the video of brad grinding it down in 30 minutes with 80 grit on a machine I decided that was the way to go, just haven't figured out why I can't apply the compounds like he does yet.

 

[ghwatson]

I think the reason no one does a video on it is because it really is sort of a simple thing. You press the compound to the wheel, and it applies to the wheel. I've had grits from 60x up to, I think, 400x maybe and they all applied the same way. Works the same for all compounds really. The one video you saw seems to have shown exactly what happens normally. There's no secret sauce here, it goes on easily, usually.

If your wheels are properly raked, and the compound quality is good, temp is good, etc - then the stuff should apply to your wheel without issue. You don't need a lot on the wheel, just a bit.

I would call the vendor and tell them their product isn't applying properly. Maybe there is a batch number they can use to determine how old it is, when it was manufactured. The consistency of the compound is critical, without being able to touch it I can't advise though. Maybe try cutting it back an inch to see if you get a better response... I've had to do that several times, I found it to be pretty fussy stuff.

Hi Gamma, I notice you recommend that the wheel is properly raked? I thought raking was only to remove compound. Are you saying that brand new wheels need to be raked before use?

I'm using Lea Sateen compound, which is pretty much the only one I can find from UK retailers (such as Moleroda). The Caswell and Glo stuff appears to only be available in the US. But you say they're all the same, so maybe not worth purchasing different ones.

Could it be the kit I'm using? Brad is using a pro buffing machine and quite large 8" wheels. I'm using a little noddy jeweller's machine that I purchased for about £60 on Amazon, and have tried 4 and 6 inch wheels. When I press the compound lightly it goes everywhere except the wheel, when I press in hard the wheel grinds to a halt and machine clearly struggles. Could it be that machine isn't powerful enough to keep the wheel going against the compound at slow speeds?

 

[rbscebu]

I can't help with your problem but you need to consider the wheel's circumferential speed. At the same rpm, the smaller the wheel the slower the circumferential speed. This speed is calculated as follows:

S = π x R x D​

where:

S = circumferential speed in cm/min​

R = wheel rpm​

D = wheel diameter in cm​

​

The higher the circumferential speed the greater the chance of overheating the blade. The steel should never get over 200°C, not even for an instant. The thinner the steel the quicker it heats.

 

[ghwatson]

I can't help with your problem but you need to consider the wheel's circumferential speed. At the same rpm, the smaller the wheel the slower the circumferential speed. This speed is calculated as follows:

S = π x R x D​

where:

S = circumferential speed in cm/min​

R = wheel rpm​

D = wheel diameter in cm​

​

The higher the circumferential speed the greater the chance of overheating the blade. The steel should never get over 200°C, not even for an instant. The thinner the steel the quicker it heats.

Good advice, though at this point causing the steel to overheat is the least of my issues, as I can’t get the compound to stick to the wheel to generate any heat,

The size of the wheel affecting the circumferential speed though is perhaps contributing to the issue. I’m using smaller wheels, which might be moving too quickly. perhaps I need to get a better buffing machine and 8” wheels, so they spin ‘slower’ and with more force to help the compound stick. Process of elimination I guess. Thanks for your advice.

 

[Frank Shaves]

Hi rbscebu. I actually started with hand sandpaper, and watched a few videos on methods like wrapping it around a cork to get the right shape. After about 2 hours of sanding and seeing that I'd barely made a difference I'd lost the will to live. The razor had deep pitting where the rust had been removed. I'm sure it would have worked, but would have taken me days and days. After I saw the video of brad grinding it down in 30 minutes with 80 grit on a machine I decided that was the way to go, just haven't figured out why I can't apply the compounds like he does yet.

I hear you. I remember the first time I used sandpaper to clean up a razor by hand (a Cape 1000), starting with 400-grit wet/dry. I later learned that you need to start with 240 or even 100 grit to more easily remove deeper pitting. In retrospect, I wish that I had started with at least 240-grit on the Cape.

I usually sand with WD-40 for the first couple of grits. My standard sequence is [100, ]240, 400, 800, 1200 and 2000, followed by Mothers polish. I normally stop at 1200 on old Sheffields and 2000 on modern razors. I, personally, do not like a mirror finish.

I sand in both directions. Most razors are ground perpendicular to the edge, so I first sand parallel to the edge and then perpendicular to the edge. For framebacks and rattlers, everything is vice versa.

 

[Gamma]

Hi Gamma, I notice you recommend that the wheel is properly raked? I thought raking was only to remove compound. Are you saying that brand new wheels need to be raked before use?

I'm using Lea Sateen compound, which is pretty much the only one I can find from UK retailers (such as Moleroda). The Caswell and Glo stuff appears to only be available in the US. But you say they're all the same, so maybe not worth purchasing different ones.

Could it be the kit I'm using? Brad is using a pro buffing machine and quite large 8" wheels. I'm using a little noddy jeweller's machine that I purchased for about £60 on Amazon, and have tried 4 and 6 inch wheels. When I press the compound lightly it goes everywhere except the wheel, when I press in hard the wheel grinds to a halt and machine clearly struggles. Could it be that machine isn't powerful enough to keep the wheel going against the compound at slow speeds?

Smaller diameter wheels move more slowly. I used to use 4" wheels to slow things down. At 3k rpm, a 6" wheel gives you 79 ft/s. At the same rpm, a 4" wheel gives you 52 ft/s.

If the wheel is all pressed down flat, I'd rake it. I can't see or handle your gear so I don't know what's what on your end. But I always make sure the wheel is 'fluffed'. That's how I kept the abrasive even on the surface.

I would not expect you would need all that much torque or pressure to get the product on the wheel, it should pretty much just go on. So I don't know if your small buffer is causing any issues. Maybe it is the source of the issue, maybe not though. By your description, the abrasive paste is coming off and flying around. The issue seems to be that it is not adhering to the wheel. I would suppose that if the machine can make the abrasive spray around the room then the abrasive should also be able to stick on the wheel. But maybe not - without having the set up here I can't judge.

I never had to use a lot of pressure/friction to get the abrasive to 'stick' though. Some pressure, yes - but not a lot. With my products and set up I would apply during 'wind down' after turning the motor off actually, so any serious pressure would stop the wheel. When buffing, I would use some pressure when taking out pits and rust so maybe a small jewelers buffer isn't up to the task....that is something to consider for sure.

I am sure that from brand to brand there are differences in these products, but they should all basically go on the same if they are fresh and all other parts of the equation are on-point. Maybe some apply easier than others. I don't know. The Caswell stuff applied easily, have not tried other brands.

I would say the best course of action is to call the vendor/manufacturer and tell them what's going on. Your abrasive might be 'out of date' or something along those lines. What you are describing sounds like what I had to deal with when the abrasive got old...or cold or both. I would have to cut back the tube a good bit until the surface felt tacky. And that surface didn't stay usable very long, I had to wrap it in plastic right away. When it got hard/dry the stuff would spray. You may be experiencing the same sort of situation. I know you just bought the stuff but it's age starts from day of manufacture and maybe it's been sitting around on a shelf too long.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

I used 4-inch wheels on a 1700 rpm buffer, 6” wheel spins too fast.

Buy quality sewn cotton wheels, invest in a good 2 hand wooden handle rake with replaceable steel teeth. I buy all my buffing supplies from Castwell’s Polishing Supply.

BTW, I used 3 wheels for each compound, but in the end used 600 grit most.

Rake new wheels to fluff and allow the compound to grab on to the fibers of a spinning wheel. After raking, trim the wheel of any loose fibers. I bought inexpensive gardening shears to trim loose fibers loaded with compound, they will dull a pair of good shears. If you do not trim long loose fibers they become whips that will mar a finish and cause you more work.

I put my buffer on a piece of cardboard on a bench and attached a large piece of cardboard to the wall as a back stop. Greaseless will splatter everywhere, you just have to accept that.

I made a splatter guard box from a cereal box with slots cut into it for the shaft so that only the front of the wheel is exposed, and should it get caught it is just thin cardboard, used for loading only.

I start the buffer and turn it off before it gets to full speed and touch the tube of compound to the wheel. The trick is to build up the compound thickness allowing a few minutes for it to dry hard on the wheel. Once I have touched the tube of compound to the wheel 2 or 3 times, remove the wheel and load another until you have all 3 loaded. Allow to air dry hard.



Each time you can add more compound a little at a time, probably 3-4 cycles to completely cover a wheel. You want 3 wheels so as you use a wheel you can reload it and switch to a fully loaded wheel while the other is drying, 3 wheels is a good number for a rotation allowing enough time to dry.

Do not let your compound dry out, it should be wet and sticky. Cut the plastic rapper and peel it down do not cut it off. Cover the compound when not in use and store in a plastic bag in air tight container, Tupperware.

If it dries out put a wet paper towel in the plastic bag and wait a day or so until it is sticky again.

You will learn how to buff and conserve the compound on your wheel avoid hard corners as that will flake off hardened compound quickly. After first load the wheels will accept compound easier. Do not be surprised if new wheels will not fully cover. After using it gets better.

Prepping a razor will also help, cut/scrape off as much rust as possible with an old chisel and single edge razor blade or Stanley utility box cutter blade, (make a wood handle for the Stanley, for razor blade I buy plastic handles. The more rust you remove the easier polishing will be.

Like I said 600 was almost the only grit I used, until I found 6-inch 220 grit, red 3M Radial Bristle Disc. If you have 3 wheels in various loading of grit from full to almost completely worn grit, you can have a progression of polishing power. They are pricy but cut faster and much less messy than Greasless.

From a lightly loaded wheel you can go to a sewn 6-inch spiral wheel loaded with Green Stainless compound and get a decent polish, (there is a learning curve) and finish polish with a loose unsewn wheel with white compound, red rouge, Pink Scratchless. Fabuluster, and or Zam.

If you want a “Real” Sheffield black mirror polish, that is a whole other kettle of fish, that start with hand sanding, lots of hand sanding to preserve the sharp detail and crisp lines and a deep liquid mirror polish. Lots of old posts on mirror finish, on old knife sites. Search Sheffield Black mirror polish.

Mike Carter and Nick Wheeler have some good videos on true mirror polishing knives.