Exceedingly discouraged

[Dzaw]

I am seriously considering just going back to carts.

When straight razor shaves are good, they are easily the best shaves I've had, and they keep getting better.

However, as often as not it seems they aren't good.

When I freshly hone a razor, be it using "The Method" as laid out here, or using the "Science of Sharp" method found on that website, I can get a really great shave. That lasts a couple of shaves, but the edge then plummets to terrible really quickly. After only a few good shaves, my razors just don't perform.

I would be inclined to think it's my stropping, but I couldn't tell you how that's even remotely possible. I've watched every stropping vid I can find linked on this site, as well as on YouTube. I've read dozens of threads here on stropping. I've tried a paddle strop, and a hanging strop. Even newspaper.

I've tried touching up the razors on balsa between shaves. I've tried not stropping between shaves. I've tried super light barely kissing the leather stropping, blade weight only stropping, just a little more than blade weight stropping, and just a little push stropping. I've tried pulling the hanging strop guitar-string tight, and also less so.

I just re-read my own journal again, trying to eek out additional information and patterns. I can only really say one thing for certain. The two razors I am shaving with give me really excellent shaves for 2-3 ish shaves after honing. Then they need additional honing or I am asking for trouble.

The one I used today is a perfect example; since honing it last, it has given me one really superb shave, followed by a good shave, followed by an acceptable, solid shave, and then today, its fourth since honing, terrible. Just to be sure it wasn't me being variable in technique, I tried the usual tests - it won't treetop arm hair at all, not even at less than an eighth off the skin. It won't even treetop the thick wiry chest/ belly hairs unless I get to less than a quarter inch. Many areas, especially around the goatee zone seemed to ignore the first two passes - I could clean the lather off the skin, but the whiskers seemed quite unchanged. Multiple cleanup passes of lather-shave, lather-shave were required in spots. I managed to fight a pretty close shave out of it, but ten minutes later, my wife commented that my face is staring to bloom red, and I can feel it.

Frustration is getting the better of me. I swore I would at least give this the full 100, and I'm trying to wrack my brain to see where I am going wrong, but I am coming to the conclusion that this is just not worth the pain and maintenance for the few grand shaves it can provide.

 

[Lightcs1776]

If you decide to forgo straight razors, you might consider a DE / safety razor.

That said, have you had a razor honed by someone with more experience with them? This helped me in learning what really sharp actually feels like. Also, can you let folks know what razors you are using? Someone here might have insight into the particular razor.

Sent from my DROID Turbo using Tapatalk

 

[Mick]

Before going back to cart/system shaving, go to an old school SE or one of the newer disposable straight barber blade SE razors

 

[mglindo]

From what you have posted I am presuming that you are relatively new at this. In saying that, you also don't say what razor you are using. All that matters. Some razors, the metal, are harder than others! That matters also in that the harder they are, the longer it stays sharper. They are also harder to hone and takes longer due to the hardness of the metal. Also, I am presuming here that you are new to honing razors. Did you initially hone your razor for your first shave? If not, I would suggest sending it out to some one on this forum that is well known for their honing skill. Also, when you get it back, don't strop it before your first shave. Also have that person evaluate your razor and how you have honed it. That way when you strop it for your next shave, you will know if your stropping technique is ok, or whether you have just had a car wreck and diminished the sharp edge.

Another thing I would like to mention is that you have probably heard from others on the forum about their BBS, Baby butt shaves. That is fine if you get it but a DFS, damn fine shave, is just fine in most cases. Some people chase it but wrecking your face to get it just sucks in my opinion.

I would not quit so soon. Some people in the beginning will do a pass or two and finish up with a safety razor. That option, or just shaving with a safety razor is a much better option than going back to, ugg, cartridge razors in my opinion.

Good luck with your straight razors.

Mike

Another thing I will mention is that we don't know where you are and you should possibly find someone near you that could mentor you?

 

[bluesman 7]

When I freshly hone a razor, be it using "The Method" as laid out here, or using the "Science of Sharp" method found on that website, I can get a really great shave. That lasts a couple of shaves, but the edge then plummets to terrible really quickly. After only a few good shaves, my razors just don't perform.

I've not worked with either of the two 'systems' that you have mentioned, but I would note that they are both rather recent honing methods. People have used straights for years with good results before these systems or the mediums that they use existed. It sounds to me that you are developing a very sharp fin that shaves well but is too fragile to last. I would suggest trying a more traditional edge, either natural or synthetic from someone known for honing good edges.

 

[Dzaw]

Thanks for the thoughts gents. In response:

I've used properly sharp razors. @steveclarkus exchanged razors with me for a while so he could test my edges and I could experience his. The edges he honed on his own razors felt remarkably like when I freshly hone one of mine. He gave a glowing review to the edges I sent on the razors I shave with. Similarly, the razors in the passaround sharpened by @Slash McCoy felt quite familiar (actually, the gray handled one was off, but there was drama involved with that one, but the white one was about where I expected a fresh edge). So I do have a solid handle on what a freshly sharp razor feels like.

2: I had considered going back to DE shaving. My DE technique is very very much improved from learning a straight razor (I am 95 shaves into the straight razor path), but whenever I consider that route, I get overwhelmed with this feeling of sitting just outside the gates of Disney World, but being unable to go inside. Kind of like being super infatuated with a beautiful girl who thinks of you like a brother. I sometimes feel like going to carts and shaving in the shower with bath soap for lubrication would provide more distance.

I am using a Shell razor and a J&R Dodge razor. It has occurred to me that mayhap the steel on these blades just dulls relatively quickly. It might even be possible that the hone wear on the spines (which is pretty substantial, but doesn't look catastrophically so) may have made the edge angle acute enough that it collapses more easily. I will need to buy some dial calipers to take a measurement to be sure, but heck, since I'm spitballing possibilities...

Being that I haven't been doing this for years, I tend to blame user error when something goes wrong. I just don't have any more user error that I can think of that would be responsible for the pattern I am encountering - I've been double and triple checking every step of the process to see where the heck I am going wrong and just can't seem to eliminate enough variables to be sure.

I suppose it could be worth a shot to send these to a honemeister with a widely acknowledged reputation, and see if the resulting edge is any different than the previous examples, or if it lasts any longer...

 

[Dzaw]

I've not worked with either of the two 'systems' that you have mentioned, but I would note that they are both rather recent honing methods. People have used straights for years with good results before these systems or the mediums that they use existed. It sounds to me that you are developing a very sharp fin that shaves well but is too fragile to last. I would suggest trying a more traditional edge, either natural or synthetic from someone known for honing good edges.

You know - maybe a more traditional edge might be just the ticket. I haven't tried an edge at 8000 or 15000 without polishing down to much finer. When I first got them they were from an experienced shaver who honed them before sending them to me - one on a coticule the other on an Escher Thuringian. I remember them shaving pretty well, but not lasting very long, though at the time, I blamed that squarely on being super new. I'll try re-honing on my films down to 15k and stopping there next I guess.

Yeah, the behavior seems a lot like a fin / wire edge, but I was under the impression generally that such an edge would collapse and be quite rough by the end of one shave, and I usually do get two pretty good shaves per honing, and often a third solid performance before it goes south. Also, that's the exact reason I switched honing methods - I kept encountering this phenomenon, and decided I must be making a fin edge, and the second method specifically addresses that problem, making it -seem- more foolproof in that regard.

I am pretty new to straight razors specifically, but I've been grinding and honing steel most of my life. I learned to hone knives when I was 7, and got quite obsessed with it for a couple of decades. I even spent a few years as a smith, built my own propane forge, grinder, the works. Made a few pretty nice knives and one ok-ish sword before life got in the way - the point being none of the basic principals of honing are at all new to me. This, of course makes the frustration feel all the worse. When you pride yourself at being pretty darned good at a task, then suddenly find out you're rubbish at it, well, it takes its toll! LOL.

 

[ScottChapin]

I had a Ralph Aust that was shave ready and I worked it to perfection on a Naniwa 12K. It soon lost its edge. Maybe it was 5 shaves+/-.

I’m thinking I might have been stropping to aggressively. I’m now stropping with a very light touch and it seems to be working better.


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[Seveneighth]

I've not worked with either of the two 'systems' that you have mentioned, but I would note that they are both rather recent honing methods. People have used straights for years with good results before these systems or the mediums that they use existed. It sounds to me that you are developing a very sharp fin that shaves well but is too fragile to last. I would suggest trying a more traditional edge, either natural or synthetic from someone known for honing good edges.

These are excellent points. I strongly believe that the steel and grind of the razor make a big difference as well.

1) I don't bother putting a high sharpness on a vintage Sheffield. They don't need it and they won't retain it.
2) I only like Swedish steel with coticule edges. I find anything else too harsh.
3) I ONLY USE THE METHOD WITH STAINLESS BLADES. I find modern custom blades resilient enough to take it but I prefer a smoother natural edge like a Charnley.

These are just examples. Where I'm going with this is that some metals seem to be too fragile to retain the ultra sharp edge and others are too harsh.

If you haven't already, perhaps try a stainless steel razor to see how that lasts and as @Bluesman7 suggests, try experimenting with natural finishers as well.

For tough beard growth, my best razors are heavy ground well hardened hand made razors. I am skeptical about some of the big manufacturers. If you compare the methods of a handmade razor maker)(multiple hardening cycles) vs. a certain modern manufacturer. My Ed Brice custom razors take and keep a sharper edge than any other I own. They will keep a method edge even without ongoing balsa maintenance.

Just trying to give you some more options here

 

[global_dev]

have you checked bevel angle? maybe widening it a bit will help mitigate degradation.

 

[steveclarkus]

Thanks for the thoughts gents. In response:

I've used properly sharp razors. @steveclarkus exchanged razors with me for a while so he could test my edges and I could experience his. The edges he honed on his own razors felt remarkably like when I freshly hone one of mine. He gave a glowing review to the edges I sent on the razors I shave with. Similarly, the razors in the passaround sharpened by @Slash McCoy felt quite familiar (actually, the gray handled one was off, but there was drama involved with that one, but the white one was about where I expected a fresh edge). So I do have a solid handle on what a freshly sharp razor feels like.

2: I had considered going back to DE shaving. My DE technique is very very much improved from learning a straight razor (I am 95 shaves into the straight razor path), but whenever I consider that route, I get overwhelmed with this feeling of sitting just outside the gates of Disney World, but being unable to go inside. Kind of like being super infatuated with a beautiful girl who thinks of you like a brother. I sometimes feel like going to carts and shaving in the shower with bath soap for lubrication would provide more distance.

I am using a Shell razor and a J&R Dodge razor. It has occurred to me that mayhap the steel on these blades just dulls relatively quickly. It might even be possible that the hone wear on the spines (which is pretty substantial, but doesn't look catastrophically so) may have made the edge angle acute enough that it collapses more easily. I will need to buy some dial calipers to take a measurement to be sure, but heck, since I'm spitballing possibilities...

Being that I haven't been doing this for years, I tend to blame user error when something goes wrong. I just don't have any more user error that I can think of that would be responsible for the pattern I am encountering - I've been double and triple checking every step of the process to see where the heck I am going wrong and just can't seem to eliminate enough variables to be sure.

I suppose it could be worth a shot to send these to a honemeister with a widely acknowledged reputation, and see if the resulting edge is any different than the previous examples, or if it lasts any longer...

I am far from a well rounded honemeister but I believe you would have to have removed a hell of a lot of spine to significantly change the bevel angle. I have razors that have a visible amount of spine wear from getting a proper bevel along the entire edge but no real change in bevel angle. Since I touch up on .1u balsa after each shave, I always have a “new” edge though. Perhaps shaving with a DE for a while then coming back to straights will result in some kind of cosmic blast. I remember your edges well and they were excellent. Perhaps your beard is a bit tough for such a fine edge. Maybe 12k would be a better choice. But then, I have no ideas what I’m talking about.

 

[global_dev]

you interested in trying finishing with tape to create a secondary bevel? around 12-15k

 

[proslogion]

I don't have anything to add to the topic, but I am very interested in what the final answer is going to be. My initial gut reply would have been stropping technique, but it sounds like that isn't an issue.

Or maybe stropping is more finicky on a Method edge?

 

[dundak]

Could be a lot of things. Stropping, prep (drier whiskers will kill an edge quick) or the razors themselves. Extremely hone worn razors may not hold an edge well because the bevel angle is to acute. It could also be the temper of the edges if they have been over buffed.

Stropping in general should always improve an edge if done correctly. If it does not it is technique or the edge itself.

I wish you well. You may want to put a microbevel on the edge to see if that helps in edge retention.


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[sig303]

you interested in trying finishing with tape to create a secondary bevel? around 12-15k

I was kind of thinking along these lines. I had one old blade that really benefitted from this - that extra steel supporting the cutting edge seemed to make all the difference. It was such a significant change that I entertained doing it on all my razors, although it was only the one that had problems retaining an edge, but then I remembered that I'm lazy.

 

[stone and strop]

I would think it is your stropping alone if you are getting good shaves after honing.
Many years ago I would only get 5-6 shaves before getting the same feeling. I had my barber come over and teach me to strop.
The number of shaves improved leaps and bounds from there and with practice I can get a great many shaves just stropping on leather.
I would look there first.

 

[Bbb34]

Of course, no way to be sure, but it sounds to me that you need to work on your stropping since you're indicating freshly honed razors work really well for you. The other possibility is prep (not hydrating enough) or not using steep enough angle and scraping and potentially dulling the razor faster (so you feel you need to hone after 2-3 shaves), but I'm not sure how likely that would be.

For me, stropping was most difficult thing to master, shaving came somewhat naturally, and I was getting better fast, with lots of experimenting and practice, but stropping was a real pain. It is really difficult to know if you're doing things right or wrong until it's too late.

I'd say, and I might've given this advice to you before, don't give up, just walk away for few weeks, then come back at it. Initially it's difficult and kinda hit and miss, but then somehow things just fall in place. Even if you do decide to give up, I'm with others, perhaps DE rather than going back to carts, you know, "cooler", "better" (do note the quotes), cheaper, more environment friendly way to shave.

 

[Dzaw]

Thanks guys. The community here is awesome, and the support has been amazing.

Now several hours removed from the drama, and in a calmer state of mind, I can say that the biggest frustration is the inability to really isolate individual variables. There's five or six culprits that could be at fault for the experience I am having. Each time I examine one as closely as I can, I get sure that it couldn't possibly be that one... I am trying to be critically honest with myself in that process, but I do know that I am simply too close to the problem to trust my own point of view.

I am going to take a week of DE shaving. This coming weekend, I'll hone these two up with tape on the spine and stop at 14,000 grit, and we'll see if that helps over the next week. I'll try lightening up on the strop some more between shaves too, to see if that helps. in the mean time, I'll pick up some calipers and see about taking a measurement to look into edge angle.

I suppose I could try a shavette for a while. DE blades don't seem to have this problem, at least, not in my DE89.

 

[*stefan*]

First, congrat for being able to hone to shave ready and getting good shaves!
Nothing wrong with taking a break using DE, actually can be helpful.

Curious about the reason your edge don't last longer.
What leather strop are you using?
Are you using linen or canvas strop?

advise:
Check how the edge contact the strop during some laps. Important the strop edge not bending upwards.
If so you you need to work them down.
When stropping add a slight torque to turn down the edge to the leather. Use only light press force downwards but enough so the blade don't turn on the edge. Practice with a not favorite razor.
You want the same force and torque stropping in both direction, listen to sound and feel. Use your palm to moisture/heat the leather before stropping.
Low angle when shaving and high water content in lather and hydrate lather during shave will help some.
Clean the edge and spine/blade after shaving and dry edge.
Stropping on leather after shaving should increase the edge ability to tree top and score at HHT.
Experiment with leather stropping and see impact on HHT and tree topping.
Get a real linen strop.

 

[MilkCrate]

Just a humble suggestion.

Take one of your straights and put a method edge on it. Take a week off and use a DE. While using the DE, strop that straight as if you were using it. At the end of your DE week, try the straight and see how it shaves. That should help eliminate one variable.