Brush Chronicles #11: Vie-Long; El Caballo Español (The Spanish horse)

[mftoms59]

Hello everyone, and welcome to the next installment of the Brush Chronicles- the Vie-Long Horse Hair Brush 12705 Natural Brown Hair & 13723 Banded Hair
Before we proceed, I would like to express my thanks and appreciation to David for asking me to participate in this chronicle. I'm not an expert, but fell in love with Vie-Long Horse Hair Brushes in November of 2010 and have owned a total of 11 V-L Horse Hairs. I will be joined by malocchio and TZee and we'll do our best to make it both interesting and informative.

First a little background about Vie-Long and Horse Hairs for those unfamiliar with Vie-Long Horse Hair Brushes:

Vie-Long, S.L. is a family business established in 1940. Since then, it has specialized in manufacturing shaving and make-up brushes for sectors as perfumery, hairdressing or aesthetics. In addition to Horse Hair Brushes, they produce Boar, Badger and Horse/Badger Shaving Brushes as well as a Professional Line of Horse and Horse/Boar Barber Shaving Brushes.

This Discussion will primarily focus on the 12705 Natural Brown Hair & 13723 Banded Hair; the difference between the brushes is the Ratio of Mane/Tail Hairs used in the knot. I had contacted Juan, Proprietor of Gifts & Care, in preparation for this thread to obtain definitive answers to Frequently asked questions. The function of Mane Horse Hair is to provide the softness and is a lighter hair than the Tail whose function would provide the stiffness or Backbone.

As of this writing only two ratios of Mane/Tail are produced for the Standard Shaving Brushes; the standard or Banded is a 50/50 Ratio, a good all-around Brush for Soaps and Creams. The Natural Brown Hair is a 35/65 mix, giving it extra stiffness for the normally longer/higher lofts, and are more for Harder Soaps, or those that prefer a more exfoliating Brush, these ratios are offered in two knot sizes; 20mm & 23mm. The professional Series/Barber Brushes use a 25/75 mix with lofts usually ~ 60mm, knot sizes are 18mm & 20mm. Though the standard Lofts are set high for some, customization of the Loft Height, as well as the Type of Hair; Banded (50/50) or Natural (35/65), can be accommodated during the Order Process, at no extra charge, in the comments section.

Lastly, During my correspondence with Juan, I had inquired as to the availability of a 65/35 Ratio, which would add extra softness to the tips, my second question/suggestion was the availability of a Fan or Flat-Top Horse Knot, right now only Bulb-Shaped are available, he stated the knots are supplied by an outside manufacturer and would pass along my suggestions, hopefully in the future a Fan or Flat-top can become reality.

here are Pre-Bloom photos of the 12705 @ 47/23mm & 13723 @ 54/23mm, sorry but I'm not a good photographer.

I am a night Shaver and I will be Bowl Lathering Lavanda Creme de Barbear using the 13723 later today.

The thread is open to all V-L Horse Hair Bushes, though the focus will be for the 12705 & 13723.

 

[TZee]

As the proud owner of a custom Vie-Long 12705 (see this thread), and the former owner of a Vie-Long 13061, I'd like to share some of my experiences and opinions about these wonderful horse hair brushes. There are numerous threads here describing the history of the use, and benefits of using horse hair brushes.

I soak 50% of my brush in *cold* water while showering. This helps preserve the natural backbone, making it perform closer to that of silvertip badger.

Here's a shot (sorry, I don't have a SLR camera) of the 12705 posing with his Spanish cousin, Flöid.

A top view, to give you an idea of what it looks like.

Standing next to the Turkish Old Spice that was generously gifted to me.

Loaded with a "dollop" of Turkish Old Spice, and swirled on my face for ~30 seconds. No bowl was used.

After being used for 3 passes

Rinsed and shaken

The result was a good shave. The Vie-Long brushes that I have owned are versatile. They behave nicely with den favorites such as Musgo Real and Tabac. As a big Semogue fan, I can attest to the value and performance of these brushes. For those who are looking for cheaper alternatives to the top end badger brushes, or for those with moral reservations, consider a Vie-Long.

 

[beginish]

Great kick off, gents! I look forward to following this and getting an idea for what break in means for a horse hair brush, especially in relation to face feel and how the different hair types affect it.

 

[Angry__Panda]

Nice, the shorter loft one looks really good that way. I look forward to hearing how the loft effects how it lathers. Every time I go to order from Juan another thread like is pops up and makes me consider different options lol. I meant to order a few of his brushes last month, but now I may wait till this thread plays out. Thanks for posting you guys, I'll have to take some pics and show you what my factory one looks like.

 

[mftoms59]

Good Evening, at least on the West Coast, I just finished my Shave tonight, I bowl Lathered the Lavanda Creme de Barbaer with the Banded 13723 @ 54/23mm knot.

I took a slightly bigger than Almond size snurdle of Cream and a soaked (~10minutes) Brush minus two good shakes, #1.

After ~30 seconds of building lather, the brush was full with a small amount in the bowl, #2, Another minute for Good usable lather on the Brush & Bowl, #3, and after three minutes of building/mixing my lather was blooming & ready to use, #4. After two passes and a touch-up I had enough lather for probably two more passes, #5.

This was only the third lather with this brush, which has improved in it's ability to get your Cream or Soap "Ready to Use", as with most of the V-L Horse Brushes I've used, a small break-in of the hair & knot is required usually 8-12 lathers will suffice.

My personal preference with a 50/50, Mane/Tail ratio, I wouldn't go higher than 50mm on the loft. This brush was sent at the Factory loft by mistake and a second brush was sent with the correct loft requested.

The feel of the brush tips on my face while applying lather is soft, pleasant & relaxing, not much scritch or feeling of exfoliation for me and a bit limp when using a circular motion, I think due to the loft.

IMO, the Natural Brown (35/65) @54 would add a bit of Backbone and increase the exfoliating properties at this setting, that being said I'd probably wouldn't go over 52mm with the 35/65 ratio.

Overall this brush at this loft is nice for Bowl lathering Creams & Soaps and for those with sensitive skin or rashes from scrubbier Brushes.

BTW; I am a Cold Water Shaver and used Cold water to soak my brush, Build my Lather and rinse between passes and after my shave.

 

[mftoms59]

As the proud owner of a custom Vie-Long 12705 (see this thread), and the former owner of a Vie-Long 13061, I'd like to share some of my experiences and opinions about these wonderful horse hair brushes. There are numerous threads here describing the history of the use, and benefits of using horse hair brushes.

I soak 50% of my brush in *cold* water while showering. This helps preserve the natural backbone, making it perform closer to that of silvertip badger...

The result was a good shave. The Vie-Long brushes that I have owned are versatile. They behave nicely with den favorites such as Musgo Real and Tabac. As a big Semogue fan, I can attest to the value and performance of these brushes. For those who are looking for cheaper alternatives to the top end badger brushes, or for those with moral reservations, consider a Vie-Long.

First off, I'd like to thank and Credit TZee for coming up with the Title for this Thread and his participation the next two weeks. His 12705 has the same loft as mine @47mm, believe it or not it was independent of any correspondence with one another. This is strictly a Face Lathering Brush, due to the short loft & bowl lathering would be a Loud Affair due to Handle Clunking unless you had a very shallow bowl.

 

[djh]

Off to a fine start, Gentlemen! Thanks for taking the lead on this one- I will be following your efforts with great interest.

 

[mftoms59]

Good Evening Gents, Tonight I shaved a bit earlier, using the Banded 13723 @54/23mm I visited the other side of the lathering spectrum and Palm/Face Lathered with my Tabac Puck.

I cold water soaked for ~15 minutes, two shakes to remove excess water and loaded from a dry puck ~45 seconds, #2. I built lather ~1 minute, no extra water, #3; an additional minute, wetting the tips, #4; after ~3 total minutes of wetting & building the Lather, #5.

 

[mftoms59]

After the Palm lather I applied the first lather to my face, I mainly used a paint-brush motion with a bit of circular on the cheeks. There was very little scritch during the circular motions and the 23mm knot for me, is too big when Face Lathering, I prefer the 20mm, I feel it's more precise during the initial application of the loaded soap or cream. That being said, if you like the larger sized knot it's easy to build a lather directly on the face.

I prefer my lather slightly wetter, dense & creamy, I know I'm showing a bit of skin under the lather but those areas are slick & protected + it took a bit of time to clean my hands before handling the Camera.

This is about the 5th or 6th lather on the Brush and as you can see a few hairs were deposited on my Face.

 

[mftoms59]

The second application was done with only paint-brush strokes, the lather remained fairly wet with the only additional water that was on my face after the first pass splash from the sink basin.

Like the first application, the hair has little scritch and feels soft and pleasant during the lather application. The final photo is the lather remaining in the brush, it was rich and thick & a bit more water would probably produced two more passes.

The 50/50 Ratio is very nice for an all-around everyday brush, The drawback for me, with this brush would be too high of a loft even though it will load a Triple-Milled Soap, I prefer a bit more Backbone/stiffness.

If you like a minimal scritch Brush with soft tips and a loft over 52mm than this would meet your needs, I'd prefer it between 47-51mm which should increase the scritch and add backbone/stiffness.

This Brush was promised to another B&B Member, so I bid it Farewell and will consider adding a Banded Horse to my Stable... of course at a lower Loft.

 

[mftoms59]

Tonight will feature the 12705 Natural Brown Horse Hair, 35/65- Mane/Tail Ratio set at 47mm, the knot is identical to the 13723 @ 23mm and this will bet the third lather on this Brush. I had just received it one week ago today, so I'll give you a good account of its Characteristics when new.

I Face Lathered Klar Kabinett Klassik scent, a non-tallow soap with the consistency of VDH Luxury or a Saint Charles Soap. I shook once to remove excess water, a modified Marco Method, and did ~1 minute load because my experience has been for the knot being "Tight" and "Reluctant" to build and release lather with a new Brush having a loft below 50mm, #2.

I built the lather using a circular motion with very light pressure and a couple of tip dips ~1-2 minutes. The Scritch was pronounced when additional pressure was applied, not for the faint of heart, the backbone was as stiff as a Motocross Bike's Shocks, #3.

The second application was done with more of a paint-brush motion and light touch, #4, and what was left in the knot afterward, maybe another pass, was squeezed into my palm, #5. Not much Lather remained in the Brush when I rinsed it Clean.

The knot did seem a bit tight but built the lather fairly quick, no hairs were lost during the loading, lather application or after shave rinse of the brush.

With that said, the tips were soft and provided an interesting contrast to the stiff Backbone. I have a similar 35/65, 45L/20K with ~50 lathers, even with a slightly smaller loft the scritch is at least half of this new knot, so I'm sure with regular use the scritch will relax and can be hastened a bit with a couple of soaks in a Moisturizing Hair Conditioner, I'd say at the moment the scritch would be that of a Black Badger... On Steroids, not for the Faint of Heart.

This Hair Mix can be Tamer out of the Box by ordering it with a loft no lower than 50mm, it will still retain plenty of stiffness & spring but will reduce the scritch and allow a fuller Bloom of the knot. I'd highly recommend this for those using Hard Soaps & with a loft of 50mm can be a fine Bowl or Face Lathering Brush.

 

[Balj86]

I'm pretty excited! I just placed an order with Juan from Gifts & Care. Its the 13061 with Natural brown horse hair (23mm knot) set at a loft of 49-50mm which would be right for that handle!

 

[rntdcarvalho]

Excellent pictures!
I'm waiting for a VL 12705 with a 50mm loft, just hope I get it in time to participate!

On a non-brush related note, mftoms59 is it just the photo or does your Lavanda has more of a grayish color and not the green that is supposed to?

 

[malocchio]

NO customs for me...yet... but I am really satisfied with the 50-50 ratio on the 23mm knots.If you guys have too much scratch in the chopped lofts remember a 15 minute soak in mar-v-cide will soften them up nicely,you can feel the difference...It's nice to see more brushes in natural hair as well,they look great..

 

[TZee]

Nice shots Tom, and thanks for keeping the thread running while I was MIA (haven't shaved in a few days).

A lot of people are curious about these brushes and the configurations, but are on the fence about purchasing one as they are not as popular as badger or boar offerings. Having used all three, I can say that the feeling is in between the two. The natural brown hair in a 24mm knot is very soft, leaving little to be desired. Once broken in, they perform nicely.

Here's what I tried to do yesterday before being interrupted:

Soaking 50% of the brush in cold water

I chose to use Santa Maria Novella to give people an idea of how it performs with Italian soft soaps, an area where it really shines. Here you see the result of 3 swirls in the soap.

Fully loaded in the true Italian style (side & top views)

Since we're showing our mugs, here's it applied to my gorgeous face

These brushes are silent lather hogs, and you'd never know it until it's time to clean the brush. They easily hold enough lather for 6+ passes if loaded correctly. Here's the brush after being used for 3 passes.

After finishing, I rinsed the brush with cold water, shaking it lightly, and stored it. The dry time is fast, much faster than boars, perhaps as fast as super/silvertip badgers. I don't work for Vie-Long, nor do I receive any gifts from them or Juan at Gifts&Care, but I highly recommend these brushes, particularly with the brown (extra) hair for face lathering. No "scritchiness" whatsoever.

 

[mftoms59]

Excellent pictures!
I'm waiting for a VL 12705 with a 50mm loft, just hope I get it in time to participate!

On a non-brush related note, mftoms59 is it just the photo or does your Lavanda has more of a grayish color and not the green that is supposed to?

That photo was with a flash, but the Cream out of the tube is neither Gray or Green but more of a silver color. That tube has been in my Bedroom Closet for ~8 months, it has a Spicy Lavender scent and lathers fairly easy. Here are some photos without a flash.

 

[mftoms59]

malocchio, do you use any hard soaps, I know you like creams, especially those that are hard to find. The standard 13723 that I received in error, was supposed to have a loft of 57mm, my measurement put it @54mm, not much difference but still a bit high for me. I wouldn't mind a banded (50/50) set @ 48-50mm, for a bit of extra backbone and will have to add one soon.
BTW how about a demonstration, you don't have to post mug shots so don't be shy.

TZee, I'm not close to your photography skills but thanks, I figured a few Mug shots were better than just lather on my palm. It sure was a pain trying to clean my hands before handling my camera and trying to get some decent shots. Thanks for raising the Photography Bar, I guess I'll try harder tomorrow since I just completed tonight's shave.

 

[mftoms59]

Well tonight was a Bowl lather of QCS Basilica with the12705, my face was still a bit sore from last night's Face Lather. I was testing different amounts of pressure on a fairly new, ~ 4 lathers, to give you some idea of the Scritch and Backbone out of the box.

Anyway, I loaded the once shaken brush ~45 seconds, and after ~3 minutes of building my lather in a Mortar Bowl (textured bottom) I applied it using just the tips & virtually no pressure, with a combination of circular and paint-brush strokes. I didn't feel much scritch or prickliness and the brush released the lather easily with a bit of assistance from light finger-tip pressure on the base of the knot.

The second application was applied in an identical manner, using the water left on my face after the first pass rinse, not quite as dense but still slick. After the shave I squeezed out enough lather for a third pass, but as usual, a two-pass and a Jawline touch-up is all I require.

During the lather Building process I did use slight pressure and several plunger motions when I added a bit more water to work it through the knot and stiffer hairs.

I'd definitely recommend about two weeks of Palm & bowl lathering before applying a face lather with any extra pressure, after the first week you could face lather using the tips, but then again YFMV (Your Face May Vary).

 

[beginish]

Great thread so far, guys. Let me see if I understand. Mane = softer and more badger like in character, and tail = stiffer and more like boar. Since the horse hair is all cut (no horses were harmed in the making of your shaving brush), what do the tips feel like? Do they split with continued use?

 

[mftoms59]

Great thread so far, guys. Let me see if I understand. Mane = softer and more badger like in character, and tail = stiffer and more like boar. Since the horse hair is all cut (no horses were harmed in the making of your shaving brush), what do the tips feel like? Do they split with continued use?

You have the types correct, as for the tips splitting, I haven't found any in the past year of using V-L Horse Hair Brushes. The tips soften more like a Badger Hair with regular use, In my experience with two 35/65 knots with a loft within 1mm of each other, the new knot is much scritchier & prickly, my first has ~50 lathers with much softer tips, less prickly with comparable backbone.

Thanks for the encouragement, and for those with questions or other models of V-L Horse Hairs, please feel free to comment. I'm not an expert by any means and welcome different experiences with these Brushes.